Monoculturalism vs. Multiculturalism


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PGHammer
On 14/05/2021 at 05:33, Nick H. said:

I started quoting each of the bits that you said which I took issue with, then realised that I would be here all day trying to make it legible.

 

America is not despised for its multiculturalism. But it's impossible for me to prove an absence of something, so I need you to provide evidence (not opinion) of where you have seen that the U.S. is hated for being multicultural.

 

There is no such thing as American multiculturalism. The phrase almost sounds like a contradiction. There is a country, America, and then there is the culture/cultures within. If a country owns a culture (insofar as a culture can be owned) then that becomes a monoculture, even if its foundations are rooted in multiple cultures.

 

You weren't defending the United States in your posts at the start, you were putting it on a pedestal. And by doing so it has drawn understandable ridicule which you then chose to defend.

 

To say that other countries have extant monoculture is just ridiculous. It's a flowery way to try and say, "there is still a dominant original culture in a multicultural area, and that isn't like the U.S." Except that it is exactly like the U.S.

 

And finally, throughout your replies you have kept making the comparison between the U.S. and China. Others here have provided examples of monocultural and multicultural societies but you go back to the U.S. vs. China, alluding to the viewpoint that they are the extremes of the cultural spectrum and ignoring other examples provided. Which seems to me like this "discussion" isn't monoculture vs. multiculture, it is U.S. vs. China, and it's a "discussion" that seems more like a propaganda piece rather than a chance for discourse.

 

As an aside, I would suggest you and anyone interested read Joseph Campbell's conversation with Bill Moyers, The Power of Myth. If you have watched 13 Hours then you may recognize the following which was paraphrased in the film:

There are some great sections throughout the book about the foundation of the modern U.S. as well as the cultures that existed before it. If you want to talk about cultures and their foundations, I highly recommend giving the book a read. As a fun little note, the conversation they have was during a tour around Skywalker Ranch. They come back to Star Wars several times throughout the conversation. :laugh:

Nick H. - I respectfully disagree.  The United States of America is despised entirely *because* it does not - by design - have a dominant monoculturel  The reason it does NOT have a dominant monoculture is because it was structured - on purpose - that all cultures within the nation are equal.  It is not typical; in fact, it flies in the face of how nations are structured - including those founded AFTER the United States.

 

If you are that radically different, you aren't exactly going to be all that liked.  If you are successful - not merely *despite* that difference, but *because* of it - that makes you stand out even more!  The United States stands out; that is obvious.

 

Is the United States perfect?  No; not even close. (I have, in fact, said so - more than once.)  I get "cultural conflict"; yes, we have it among the various cultures in the united States. (Cultural conflict is, as much as I hate it, inevitable.)  However, what makes the United States different is that nowhere in the documents that founded the nation - the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution - does it set any culture above any other.  In fact, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 codifies the non-favoring of cultures into law - not just the Constitution.  If you are an immigrant - would you or would you not be attracted by this?  (I am not referring to Americans - but immigrants.)  Nations that are NOT China are very much in competition for immigrants - I get that, too.  Problem - these prospective immigrants - especially adult immigrants - likely grew up in a different culture than the prospective gaining nation.  Which would be YOUR choice - as an immigrant; a nation that requires you to surrender your culture - or one that welcomes you - culture and all?

 

The OTHER problem faced by monocultures - that cultural conflict I mentioned still happens where there is a dominant or predominant monoculture.  It is far from fun.  It leads - and has led - to out-migration from these same monocultures.  (In other words - YIKES!)  How much outmigration is there from the United States?  Compare that figure to the rest of first the G-7, than to the G-20; in fact, go all the way to the G-50.  Despite how *bad* the United States is, I still posit that the United States - despite the flaws - has the lowest outmigration quotient - even down to the G-50.  That is not merely hard data - but rebarred-concrete data.

 

No wonder the competitors to the United States have no wish OR desire to go there!  (I wouldn't want to go there in their shoes, either.)

Yes; it also is behind the visa-overstay problem the United States has had longer than I have been alive. (Yes; I want THAT problem dealt with; however, that is the job of Congress.)

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+warwagon

I didn't even read it. The lack of text formatting made my brain hurt just looking at it.

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shockz

Can we just close this now? We all know where it's headed. 

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Nick H.
10 hours ago, PGHammer said:

Nick H. - I respectfully disagree.  The United States of America is despised entirely *because* it does not - by design - have a dominant monoculturel  The reason it does NOT have a dominant monoculture is because it was structured - on purpose - that all cultures within the nation are equal.  It is not typical; in fact, it flies in the face of how nations are structured - including those founded AFTER the United States.

 

If you are that radically different, you aren't exactly going to be all that liked.  If you are successful - not merely *despite* that difference, but *because* of it - that makes you stand out even more!  The United States stands out; that is obvious.

As a precursor, I know that I have been baited into this argument that has nothing to do with culture. Despite me telling you before, you have continued to use America as your only example for multiculture, and so the following only addresses the U.S.

 

There are plenty of reasons others dislike the United States. On the world stage there is the arrogance, wonderfully displayed by the insistence of being #1 in all things great even when facts show differently. An attitude of "we know best" taken to the point of imposing their ideas on other nations and cultures that didn't ask for interference. A bully nature, thinking they can take what they want from others before dropping out and leaving a mess to clean up when it's no longer in their interests. These three things can be seen in their wars since Vietnam - maybe earlier - and in the wonderful satire that is Team America, created by two U.S. citizens no less. I should note that this isn't how everyone sees the U.S. and their behaviour, but you mentioned being disliked so there are some reasons as to why that might be.

 

Then there is the view that people outside the U.S. see within America's borders. A broken healthcare system, available to those with enough money and denied to people barely able to afford their rent. A wage gap so large and a minimum wage so low that I'm amazed the population hasn't taken a leaf out of France's book yet (for those not into history, I'm referring to the storming of the Bastille). Gun violence seemingly out of control, to the point where schools have shooter drills. A political system with a clown at the top for the past four years...Now of course, someone within the U.S. can say, "but it's not really like that!" but I'm just commenting on a view that the World has looking in.

 

All of the above, and yet I don't think I know anyone that would say, "the U.S.? Yeah, it's their multicultural acceptance that I hate."

 

Your next point moves on to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. I've got to say that it amazes me no end how Americans always bring up these papers, referring to them with as much reverence as the bible. Much like a child's drawing that he brings home from school, I say, "they're lovely, dear" but I know that there are plenty of other pieces of paper in plenty of other countries that read very similarly.

 

Now, enough with using America as the only example for multiculture if multiculture is what you want to discuss. You don't have to use what you see to be the pinnacle of an idea to discuss the idea, and only using one example is considered a losing tactic in any debate. Unfortunately I don't think you will stop, since as I have already said your original intention was to have a thread about America vs. China. What I can't understand is why you didn't just make a thread about that in the first place and instead tried to hide it behind a smokescreen?

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+Dick Montage
4 hours ago, PGHammer said:

The United States of America is despised entirely *because* it does not - by design - have a dominant monoculture

You are so wrong that it not only hurts, it becomes a whole sub-kink of BDSM

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PGHammer
On 18/05/2021 at 20:26, Dick Montage said:

You are so wrong that it not only hurts, it becomes a whole sub-kink of BDSM

So endless friction - which leads to outmigration - is better?

 

Outmigration - especially from Europe - is a problem and has BEEN a problem since the end of the eighteenth century - how do you think that colonialism became a thing?  That is an excuse - and if it was the United States that suffered from it, you would gleefully find fault with the nation FOR it - which would make a ton of sense.  You can't goal-kick the problem down the road forever - which is exactly what all the monocultures - not just those in Europe - have done; until you solve it, you will have a population-retention problem - let alone a population-attraction problem.  The United States is not the only nation that needs immigrants; in fact, Europe is in worse shape there than the United States - in fact, Europe has it worse because it is losing the resident population to less fractious nations - including the United States and Canada.

 

The work will not be easy - nor will it be fun; however, your survival as national entities depends on solving it.

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FloatingFatMan

Outmigration has bugger all to do with culture or national identity either so please, just stop.  You demonstrate your ignorance more and more with each post.

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+Dick Montage
21 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

So endless friction - which leads to outmigration - is better?

 

Outmigration - especially from Europe - is a problem and has BEEN a problem since the end of the eighteenth century - how do you think that colonialism became a thing?  That is an excuse - and if it was the United States that suffered from it, you would gleefully find fault with the nation FOR it - which would make a ton of sense.  You can't goal-kick the problem down the road forever - which is exactly what all the monocultures - not just those in Europe - have done; until you solve it, you will have a population-retention problem - let alone a population-attraction problem.  The United States is not the only nation that needs immigrants; in fact, Europe is in worse shape there than the United States - in fact, Europe has it worse because it is losing the resident population to less fractious nations - including the United States and Canada.

 

The work will not be easy - nor will it be fun; however, your survival as national entities depends on solving it.

Let me quote what you actually said just there:

 

"So... {stuff that nobody said nor believes, isn't true, but you will dredge out to try (and fail) to make a point}"

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Jim K

OMG...this thread...

 

giphy.gif.b15d0db745b57a75e12ae97e7d26f43b.gif

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Nick H.
58 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

So endless friction - which leads to outmigration - is better?

It's amusing how you have created a question out of nothing just to go off on another tangent. It's also a headache to read, this whole thread. No one is able to join your discussion because you don't focus and just jump to a different subject when someone tries to engage. Again, it ends up being mindless rambling.

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+Dick Montage
1 hour ago, Nick H. said:

It's amusing how you have created a question out of nothing

If the definition of "amusing" is:

 

  • Without merit or substance
  • Exhibiting a demonstrable lack of credibility
  • Only real purpose is to further embarrass one's self online
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+Jumping Jacinta
On 14/05/2021 at 07:58, PGHammer said:

I am posting this is Real World Issues - not Domestic Politics - despite that only one true multiculture exsists - that of the United States.  The reason why is that the left and progressives globally - not just in the United States - hate the United States because it does NOT have a truly dominant ethnic culture - which is unique among the G-20, let alone the G-7!  On the other side is China - a large nation that is still a monoculture.  All those that are knuckling under to China are attracted to "cheap goods", and are willing to ignore the issues of a monoculture.  Monoculturalism has a crapton of problems; why adopt it?  The only way that has worked to avoid the pitfalls of monoculturalism is to not go there; instead, adopt multurailism.  The nightmare for those with pride in that domonant invariably-etnhnic culture means following ht (YIKES!) the only multiculture in existence - the multiculture of the United States.  I admit that I would be scared in their places; however, it is basically "Nature red in tooth and claw" here - adopt or become extinct AS a monoculture.  The Chinese government wants THEIR monoculture to dominate - and they are willing to adopt every "evil" of monoculturalism to make that happen.  Adopt what works - multiuculturalism.

 

ed05f656-24f3-410b-9e36-6bcef6b2b98b.jpg

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PGHammer
On 18/05/2021 at 16:49, warwagon said:

I didn't even read it. The lack of text formatting made my brain hurt just looking at it.

BS - I don't buy it OR believe it.  The problem you have with me (or my points) is that they go places you have chosen to ignore - despite that they all come from the current headlines in Europe itself - not the United States (specifically France, Scotland, Wales, and even Germany).  The first three have gone populist and to the right (not hard left) and in no case was it due to Trumpian influence (so much for "orange man bad").  The Germans?  They want natural gas - and the only source for that is Russia; the why they want natural gas is because renewables are not enough in the short term - and may not be enough in the medium or long term, either.  But you don't want nuclear power, either - despite that France has shown it can be done both sensibly AND viably.  (I actually give the French props for it.)

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+warwagon
9 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

BS - I don't buy it OR believe it.  The problem you have with me (or my points) is that they go places you have chosen to ignore - despite that they all come from the current headlines in Europe itself - not the United States (specifically France, Scotland, Wales, and even Germany).  The first three have gone populist and to the right (not hard left) and in no case was it due to Trumpian influence (so much for "orange man bad").  The Germans?  They want natural gas - and the only source for that is Russia; the why they want natural gas is because renewables are not enough in the short term - and may not be enough in the medium or long term, either.  But you don't want nuclear power, either - despite that France has shown it can be done both sensibly AND viably.  (I actually give the French props for it.)

Nope... in that post I got about as far as "BS - I don't buy it OR believe it.  The problem you have with me (or my points) is that they go places you have chosen to ignore -" then my brain gave up.

 

 Why don't you buy it OR believe it? I mention it all the time.

 

Text formatting is not hard. You just have to press enter every once and a while.

 

Example

 

Quote

BS - I don't buy it OR believe it.  The problem you have with me (or my points) is that they go places you have chosen to ignore - despite that they all come from the current headlines in Europe itself - not the United States (specifically France, Scotland, Wales, and even Germany). 

 

The first three have gone populist and to the right (not hard left) and in no case was it due to Trumpian influence (so much for "orange man bad").  The Germans? 

 

They want natural gas - and the only source for that is Russia; the why they want natural gas is because renewables are not enough in the short term - and may not be enough in the medium or long term, either. 

 

But you don't want nuclear power, either - despite that France has shown it can be done both sensibly AND viably.  (I actually give the French props for it.)

 

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FloatingFatMan
8 minutes ago, PGHammer said:

BS - I don't buy it OR believe it.  The problem you have with me (or my points) is that they go places you have chosen to ignore

Nope.  Our problem with you in this thread is that it's mindlessly stupid babble based on YOUR prejudices and has bugger all to do with actual reality.

 

Also, Russia is not the only source of natural gas in Europe, so well done... Another fail. ;)

 

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+warwagon
7 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Nope.  Our problem with you in this thread is that it's mindlessly stupid babble based on YOUR prejudices and has bugger all to do with actual reality.

 

Also, Russia is not the only source of natural gas in Europe, so well done... Another fail. ;)

 

I don't mind his opinions, I just mind his formatting.

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+Mud W1ggle

This topic is just great.  The pro-american band is so deluded with American greatness their logic has just undergone SMEF (Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure)

 

America is not even vaguely close to the only country thats multi-cultural

 

New Zealand for instance has its own faults with racial tollerance, but all govt departments and so forth have both Maori and English names, its a legal requirement.  I would say thats multi-cultural, I dont see Mexican or any other language versions of govt departments in the US...

 

All I see in here from the Americans is "Team America - ###### Yeah" - and even then I bet you dont understand that movie is a ######-take of America, not something positive

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+Jester124
On 17/05/2021 at 17:32, FloatingFatMan said:

Wow... Just.. Wow... Your ignorance truly knows no bounds... :no: 

 

The minor issues between England, Scotland and Wales have NOTHING to do with culture, but not being from the UK I wouldn't expect you to even remotely understand.

PG is the only person on this forum that consistently opens a "discussion" by putting his foot in his mouth and then walking into a revolving door.

 

I had more I wanted to say, but it would just be ignored or fly over the comprehension of original argument.

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adrynalyne
Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Mud W1ggle said:

This topic is just great.  The pro-american band is so deluded with American greatness their logic has just undergone SMEF (Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure)

 

America is not even vaguely close to the only country thats multi-cultural

 

New Zealand for instance has its own faults with racial tollerance, but all govt departments and so forth have both Maori and English names, its a legal requirement.  I would say thats multi-cultural, I dont see Mexican or any other language versions of govt departments in the US...

 

All I see in here from the Americans is "Team America - ###### Yeah" - and even then I bet you dont understand that movie is a ######-take of America, not something positive

What a load of crap (highlighted part). Don’t project the garbage from the OP onto others. Did you even read the comments?

Edited by adrynalyne
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FloatingFatMan
1 hour ago, Mud W1ggle said:

All I see in here from the Americans is "Team America - ###### Yeah"

The ONLY person here doing that, is the OP... Everyone else, including other American's, are tearing into him for it.

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+Mud W1ggle
4 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

The ONLY person here doing that, is the OP... Everyone else, including other American's, are tearing into him for it.

I'll accept that criticism

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Matthew S.
16 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

The ONLY person here doing that, is the OP... Everyone else, including other American's, are tearing into him for it.

And the OP trying hard and failing to look intelligent. 

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PGHammer
19 hours ago, Matthew S. said:

And the OP trying hard and failing to look intelligent. 

Looking intelligent?  Please - what you are claiming and claiming to be "intellingent" does not work - anywhere.  If it worked, other nations would WANT to actually try it themselves - as opposed to insisting that another nation - that is running something that actually works - try it instead.  But you don't like multiculturalism at all - not because it isn't perfect - as no cultural system IS perfect - but because it is not what you are used to.  You are basically the Mikeys of the Culture Wars - "Let's get Mikey to try it!"

 

  The United States was supposed to fail from cultural conflict (too many different cultures); however, it didn't, did it?  That part drives you absolutely cuckoo.  Conventional thinking has failed, failed, and failed constantly and CONSISTENTLY when it comes to the United States - and you can not deal.  I am not saying - in fact, I have never said - that the United States is perfect as a culture; I have in fact, pointed out flaws the United States has - including culturally.  However, those flaws are NOT because the United States lacks a dominant culture; but borne out cultural conflict in and of itself.  Cultural conflicts do nobody any good; why do you (in fact, why does anyone) want them?  Cultural conflict is the third leading cause of war (behind money and property/resources); why want that?

 

A monoculture does not prevent cultural conflict - as no culture wants to be on the losing end.  (Would ANY of you willing submit to Han Chinese culture?  That is, in fact, what the PRC is asking you to do; would you go there?)  The United States - in my person or any other way - is not asking that you surrender to it culturally OR socially; why do you think that it is?  (That idea came from somewhere - where did it come from?)

 

Playing defense is understandable; however, in what way is the United States a threat culturally?

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FloatingFatMan
12 hours ago, PGHammer said:

The United States was supposed to fail from cultural conflict (too many different cultures); however, it didn't, did it?  That part drives you absolutely cuckoo.  Conventional thinking has failed, failed, and failed constantly and CONSISTENTLY when it comes to the United States - and you can not deal.  I am not saying - in fact, I have never said - that the United States is perfect as a culture; I have in fact, pointed out flaws the United States has - including culturally.  However, those flaws are NOT because the United States lacks a dominant culture; but borne out cultural conflict in and of itself.  Cultural conflicts do nobody any good; why do you (in fact, why does anyone) want them?  Cultural conflict is the third leading cause of war (behind money and property/resources); why want that?

America HAS failed, but not in how you think it was "meant" too.  It's failed it's own people, and it doesn't drive us cuckoo, it just makes us feel bad for all the American's who have to suffer because your leadership is a total failure that can't even manage to look after its own sick.

 

Oh, and before you celebrate America's vaunted multi-culturism TOO much, let me remind you that America has, historically, only accepted cultures from western Europe.  If you're a Native American or African or Indian, or anywhere else where your skin isn't white, you ain't having such a good time of it...

12 hours ago, PGHammer said:

A monoculture does not prevent cultural conflict - as no culture wants to be on the losing end.  (Would ANY of you willing submit to Han Chinese culture?  That is, in fact, what the PRC is asking you to do; would you go there?)  The United States - in my person or any other way - is not asking that you surrender to it culturally OR socially; why do you think that it is?  (That idea came from somewhere - where did it come from?)

*sigh*   'MURICA!!! F* YEAH!!!

 

Here's a newsflash for you... What you claim of America, is true for virtually every other country in the world.  Does China try to supress other cultures? Sure.  But they are VERY much the exception rather than the rule. 

 

You cannot make any kind of even remotely reliable conclusion by basing it on one exception.  If what you said were true, then Europe wouldn't be covered in Churches, Mosque's, Synagogue's, Mandir's, Devasthana's or the many dozens of other types of places of worship that it IS covered with.

 

12 hours ago, PGHammer said:

Playing defense is understandable; however, in what way is the United States a threat culturally?

Literally NO ONE has claimed that America is a threat culturally.  Unless you're brown and have oil... THEN it's a threat.

 

Please just stop,  you're embarrassing yourself.

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Matthew S.

As usual @PGHammer you go on a tangent about something not even related to what you quoted.

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