Windows 11: Microsoft Account Sign-in, why not?

[forster]

So apparently it's the worst thing you can do, signing in to windows with a MS account. Why? Is there actually any hard evidence that it's malicious?

People tout privacy concerns, there's loads of ways around signing in without an MS account, my honest question is - why wouldnt I want to?

Do I want people viewing what Im looking at? No. Do I want a log of everything I've ever done whilst signed in with an MS account on my PC that I bought? No. But again, Id really like to see some hard data on this one, if anyone's in the know.

Whether I sign in or not, it doesnt really matter to me, I dont have Office 365 or any kind of MS subscription service, I just wondered what people's honest opinions were without all the 'internet hype'.

Thanks guys.

[JustGeorge]

I have concerns about access/integrity of my data should my MS account become compromised. I also don't like the idea out of pure hatred for the reasons behind it, cause I see the direction MS is going. Workarounds exist now, but eventually, MS is going to require MS accounts on all personal/non-domain connected devices. They want you always plugged in and your data stored with them. Its all about data collection.

 

[goretsky Supervisor]

Hello,

I think a lot of the issue is over the fact that there is a change itself.  For a lot of people, there is no immediate and obvious benefit to them; they see it as a way for Microsoft to further entrench them into Microsoft's ecosystem of service-based offerings.  For example, I have made use of a small amount of Microsoft's OneDrive cloud-based file storage service to store some particular files that I wanted online.  Not all of my files, mind you, just some specific ones, and the quantity of that storage being used does not change much.  When I was marketed to through the service's application to make additional purchases I was displeased.  Why not ask me first if I wanted to review what was in the storage service to see if there was anything  I could remove, instead of performing strong-arm tactics  to make me purchase additional storage space?

Now, that's just one example, and a particularly minor one at that.  But after decades of promoting the virtues of personal computing, it feels very much like a monetization grab/vendor lock-in attempt to me.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky
 

[ThaCrip]

I am of the mindset we simply do not need it as a standard local account has been around for ages and I don't like change for the sake of change and it's just more BS (data collection etc) with no real benefit for us end-users.

p.s. but all the more reason I am glad I dumped Windows for Linux back in Jan 2019. technically, I keep Win10 'IoT Enterpirse LTSC 2021' (supported until Jan 2032 where as standard Windows 10 support ends Oct 2025) around for limited virtual machine (QEMU/KVM) use though.

[+mram Subscriber²]

On 27/07/2024 at 06:18, forster said:

So apparently it's the worst thing you can do, signing in to windows with a MS account. Why? Is there actually any hard evidence that it's malicious?

No.

There are people who hate change and demand privacy.  No matter what I or others tell you, there will be people who claim (with no proof) that Microsoft (or any online org for that matter) is farming your organs data by having you log in to a cloud service.

There are some easy, simple benefits.

 

[frj]

It's pure paranoïa. iOS, android, MacOS, (even Ubuntu but for cloud and online feature, no log in, MacOs itoo)..

Like telemetry is spying... It's understanding absolutely nothing about it. And MS is emphasis privacy and does it without superlatives and other lies like Apple... (who also has telemetry, Proton, apps have it too).

An MS account means your devices will be coordinated, apps will work together, you can switch Edge from your PC to your phone in an instant. Same for the clipboard... I use it all the time...

Anyone may have reasons to not be willing to use it, not anything related to so paranoia about privacy is delusional.... Really...

You will not have less privacy.There are all sorts of tools to check all that by yourself, do it ! 🤪

People hate change is an euphemism. It's like a trauma for most people... sad.

Local accounts are not going anywhere... but as a personal user, the experience is just much better with an MS account (and it's been 10 years or more now so..) or people with local account but, using Google everything... that's the funniest situation! 😜

MS accounts services are not  used for ads, unless explicitly specified on some service, but mails, OneDrive etc. are never used for anything but their intended purpose...... 

Example: what MS think I like (I have, a Hotmail account since 1997, the other pictures the number of data points about me...

That's some unbelievably bad targeting  (sorry it's in French but you'll get the idea).

Edited July 28, 2024 by frj
Added example

[zhangm Supervisor]

I don't have any issues using MS accounts on computers that are mine. I think there are some conveniences such as data syncing that make it suitable for my own use.

However, I don't appreciate that creating a local non-MS account has been intentionally blocked. There are a couple of cases where I need to set up a computer where it makes sense to set up a local account that is shared between many users. These computers are dedicated to one or a couple specific pieces of software, and again for convenience, it's most straightfoward to just have it logged into a local account most of the time so that users can just walk up, do their work, and leave.

 My beef, and why the Windows account setup gets a massive thumbs down from me, is that they went to the effort of support one of these situations but not the other, when it is clear that for users, it would have been most beneficial to just let people pick what is most beneficial for themselves.

[JustGeorge]

On 27/07/2024 at 22:45, mram said:

No.

There are people who hate change and demand privacy.  No matter what I or others tell you, there will be people who claim (with no proof) that Microsoft (or any online org for that matter) is farming your organs data by having you log in to a cloud service.

There are some easy, simple benefits.

 

Whats wrong with wanting some privacy?

I'm not blind to the benefits/convenience of Cloud services so as long as long as its a choice, not a requirement. Not being data shamed every 5 damned minutes for not using it would also help...

[+mram Subscriber²]

On 27/07/2024 at 23:21, JustGeorge said:

Whats wrong with wanting some privacy?

I'm not blind to the benefits/convenience of Cloud services so as long as long as its a choice, not a requirement. Not being data shamed every 5 damned minutes for not using it would also help...

Nothing's wrong with it.  I'm completely agnostic to how people use their tools.  I just am passionate about being accurate where the risks and exposures are, and there are many who put on the tinfoil hats and assume nefarious activity.

I do tend to be a Microsoft advocate so I'll just put that out there in full disclosure.  I think that there are reasons they opted for the Microsoft account to be the default and heavily obscured the local accounts -- it's easier for them to support.  There are potential risks that end-users incur by going entirely off-grid local accounts that can result in data loss, so making that harder in general to do, I agree with.

I don't believe for a second they're using and promoting the MS account to harvest data, I believe they're just doing it to protect people from themselves, and to simplify and streamline the OOBE experience and have your computers at least linked as reference to your MSE (maybe even with bitlocker key backups, etc)

Despite everything - and I know there's a lot of contention here - It's odd to me that setting up a MSE is like criminal to some, while setting up a google account or a samsung account or an apple account or a meta account is perfectly ok.  That displays consumer bias and implied behaviors, which there are none present.

[forster]

Nice to see some genuine discussion!

[pmrd]

Dude.. you're a 43 year old man with the profile picture and signature picture of a 20 year old girl...

[forster]

On 28/07/2024 at 10:21, pmrd said:

Dude.. you're a 43 year old man with the profile picture and signature picture of a 20 year old girl...

44 is that relevant?

[Nick H. Supervisor]

I don't hate the idea of a MS account. If I think about it, it was probably the first account I ever created, way back in 1999 when I created a Hotmail account. But there are a few things that I take issue with:

• Why try and remove the local account option? It worked perfectly fine all these years, why try and force me into a different sign-in option?
• Signing in with a MS account then tries to get me to use other Microsoft services like OneDrive or Office 365. I have an O365 subscription so that isn't a bother, but Dropbox is my preferred cloud storage. If I sign in with a MS account I think I'll have to go and disable various syncing options that I don't use.
• "Tailored" advertisements. It's terrible that MS put adverts in their OS as it is, if I have them turned on I don't want them to be based on what I do with my computer.
• A final - for the moment - more overall point for me is this: Microsoft has been unable to provide me with a single advantage to being signed in with a Microsoft account instead of my local account. And the more they continue to try and push me to use one, the more averse I am to the idea.

[JustGeorge]

On 28/07/2024 at 03:05, mram said:

I don't believe for a second they're using and promoting the MS account to harvest data, I believe they're just doing it to protect people from themselves, and to simplify and streamline the OOBE experience and have your computers at least linked as reference to your MSE (maybe even with bitlocker key backups, etc)

 

IMO, Protecting the user from themselves shouldn't be of concern to them. Present/explain the option/benefits and respect the choice the user makes. 

[MS Bob 11]

What's the benefit? I don't want anything to roam across my PCs and certainly not to other devices.

[+mram Subscriber²]

On 28/07/2024 at 10:13, JustGeorge said:

IMO, Protecting the user from themselves shouldn't be of concern to them. Present/explain the option/benefits and respect the choice the user makes. 

Respectfully disagree.  Defender becoming part of the OS was born out of this kind of necessity.  So is automatic locking of the screen.  Etc, etc ... Security features, functions and operations have been built into Windows without user "approval" (referring here to the ideal of present/explain the choice) literally for decades and as bad as it sounds, YOU can be smart about your choices, but the vast majority of users would set up Windows with no password if given a choice.  Users are ignorant of the right choice, and in some contexts, the OS is not the place to really educate.  That's why (I believe) the OOBE is ridiculously simple at this point.

We could argue - again, respectfully - of the need to educate the users during the process and provide all the choices and make the OOBE basically a training session and exercise on proper username and password complexity and storage, also making any walkthroughs even more complicated and awful, or KISS-principle the whole thing and let the smart and informed users move to local accounts after the fact.  With no real risk or harm.  Make a fake MS account, attach your stuff to that for the OOBE, then move to a local account.  The worst that MS ever knows is your public IP that was attached to that (fake) account -- your ISP has far far worse, if you want to get conspiratorial - which again, getting to the original question, is not real.

[adrynalyne]

On 28/07/2024 at 10:13, JustGeorge said:

IMO, Protecting the user from themselves shouldn't be of concern to them. Present/explain the option/benefits and respect the choice the user makes. 

I used to think this way until I became a software developer. Protecting your users from themselves lowers support issues significantly. 

[JustGeorge]

On 28/07/2024 at 17:37, mram said:

Respectfully disagree.  Defender becoming part of the OS was born out of this kind of necessity.  So is automatic locking of the screen.  Etc, etc ... Security features, functions and operations have been built into Windows without user "approval" (referring here to the ideal of present/explain the choice) literally for decades and as bad as it sounds, YOU can be smart about your choices, but the vast majority of users would set up Windows with no password if given a choice.  Users are ignorant of the right choice, and in some contexts, the OS is not the place to really educate.  That's why (I believe) the OOBE is ridiculously simple at this point.

We could argue - again, respectfully - of the need to educate the users during the process and provide all the choices and make the OOBE basically a training session and exercise on proper username and password complexity and storage, also making any walkthroughs even more complicated and awful, or KISS-principle the whole thing and let the smart and informed users move to local accounts after the fact.  With no real risk or harm.  Make a fake MS account, attach your stuff to that for the OOBE, then move to a local account.  The worst that MS ever knows is your public IP that was attached to that (fake) account -- your ISP has far far worse, if you want to get conspiratorial - which again, getting to the original question, is not real.

Built-in AV, Lock screens, better under the hood security all great. None of those things are forcing online account setup.

The argument could be made that forcing online accounts and people mindlessly clicking through the onslaught of first run OneDrive backup options that default to uploading Dox, Pics, Desktop etc to the cloud potentially expose the user to more security issues.

If we have to protect the user from themselves by dumbing down everything and MS acting as the father that knows best, how can they be expected to understand the ramifications of allowing all that? I still can't believe the number of screens a user is asked to click through to when running edge for the first time. I glazed over. I'm pretty sure most regular people will to. You can just close the browser and reopen to skip all of it, btw. 

 

On 28/07/2024 at 19:26, adrynalyne said:

I used to think this way until I became a software developer. Protecting your users from themselves lowers support issues significantly. 

I get where you're coming from. I'm not on your level and will never be a software dev, so all I can do is look at it from a user's perspective.