WMAs on a Mini Ipod?


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When I bought my DVD (now sadly broken because of my clumpsy hands) i looked foward for having Wma support , so i didn't have to reencode my wma audio. You are saying thet It's wrong for me to want wma and mp3 support when my dvd is (well was :( ) dvd audio compatible.

Nobody is saying it wrong for you to want features.

The question here is whether or not apple is likely to include them.

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We all should be boycotting Apple for having such lousy nice-looking product anyway.

Ignorance at it's best. :rolleyes:

"Because they make such a nice product I want to boycott them" :rofl:

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i'm with you on this one Mav Phoenix. :)

Fusion, you have to understand not all people have as much free time on hand as you. my dad has ripped most of his jazz collection into 320kbps MP3, now why would he spend 10 hours reripping all of his music to AAC?! to save space? no he doesn't care. and it would be REALLY STUPID for Apple to not support MP3 when all this kind of digital music players are called "mp3 players" everywhere. and believe me, 9 out of 10 of my friends who own iPod use MP3, i'm the only one digging AAC.

ok back to WMA, i think Apple should support it even though i don't have a single wma file in my computers, but it seems like it's a pretty popular format among neowinians.

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MEMO.INC > Yes, I am sure. Do your research on audio codecs if you want more information. I will not turn this thread into a AAC vs Others thread.

ThunderRiver > It is my opinion we should all be boycotting you for your stupidity. But, it is free choice, have fun.

Aaron > If you remember when I first got my Mac I was in the same boat. I was a little annoyed at having to re-rip all my stuff, but the more research I did I began to realize that the quality is so nice, I just cannot deny it. It is not a matter of having time on my hands. I had 213 albums in my CD collection that I had to re-rip. I basically just took your guys advice, and whenever I felt like listening to a song, I would take out the album and begin ripping it while listening to the song. It honestly did not take that long.

I do agree with you however, that for some people, they simply don't care in the small advantage of quality and just want to listen to music. I am not suggesting they take out mp3 support. There is definetly more of a reason to have mp3 support than wma. I download many live bootleg tracks off of peer to peer networks and it is pretty nice to not have to convert it. It's not like I would gain any quality anyways being that it was recorded with someone's mini-cam.

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There's probably some room for WMA support in the Linux port for the iPod (although I'm not sure if this works with the iPod mini or not, I assume it would).

I'm not a fan of WMA (am I crazy or the bass sound a little deflated with WMA?) but I'd be for official iPod support of WMA too. The more formats supported the better.

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MEMO.INC > Yes, I am sure. Do your research on audio codecs if you want more information. I will not turn this thread into a AAC vs Others thread.

In Fact yes i did some research, although I do download some music :s, the vast majority of my audio is ripped from my own cd's, I did some codec research befor porting my collection over the pc, I learned that Lame encoder give better audio quality and EAC, later my new cd's where ripped with WMA at high quality cause it's pretty good (There Wasn't Itunes at that time) I am now experimenting with OGG, I still have my cds so i can rip them again whenever I want (some are scratched but thats why i bought skip doctor ), And I will when i see a vast improovement, Maybe ACC it's pretty good, I am not Windows nor Mac fan, but it doesn't give me that quality cheange to make me re-encode my 50+ CD collection (not to mention that i sometimes use WMA and MP3 for soundtracks in home made family dvd movies with the later more compatible). I am not saying tthat ACC it's bad or something (in fact if i do buy amini-ipod (this are very very cool) my new cds would be ripped with that) I am pointing that MP3 and WMA and OGG aren't crappy formats as you stated before.

Still ther is some truth in your statemaent taht apple shoud not open the Ipod, The customers would benefit far more with a Codec-Audio Store-Ripper-Player war, like the ATI and Nvidia market war (not a fan of anyone here too) that will drive more unic features of each player (like the creative labs ones or the Ipod and the new mobile media center) and would ultimatly end up in lower prizes, not to mention the develepment of Far better Audio Codecs (those that would make me rip my entire collection all over again), who knows, When the batlle of Itunes shop versus napster one gets hot Imagine a market of 50 cents (not the singer) per track, i would buy lot's of music at that prize.

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Why would they want to support wma when they already have a superior native codec? I am not even sure supporting mp3 format is even smart. Who needs it?

If you don't want the tiny extra size and major extra quality that comes with mp4, you can just rip at a much smaller bit rate.

I am still so confused as to why people ask for this feature.

@Dazzla, I thought you hated the iPod and had issues with the battery life, what is this newfound obsession that you have with it?

Because if Microsoft would only support WMA on a device people would be very angry.

Lawsuits would be started.... etc. etc.

Apple can just do it and nobody would probably care.....

Talking about double standards :no:

There is something like the freedom of choice. I want to be able to choose which format I want to use.

It is not up to Apple to decide that for me.

Besides that, WMA isn't that bad. It supports DRM so a lot of online music stores are gonna use it in the future. It would be pretty lame to be bouned to iTMS if I have an iPod. If another online store has a better offer I want to be able to buy my music there and still be able to play int on the iPod.

Sure AAC is a bit better then WMA and MP3, but do you really think that I am going to convert my 20+ gb MP3 collection? I will not gain quality (since you can't recreate quality) so why bother anyways (oh and I don't give a damn about filesize).

Plus ask yourself.... do you really hear the difference between AAC and MP3/WMA with those tiny earplugs on your iPod..... no.

Edited by Schmoove
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I don't understand, what is Apple forcing you to decide?

In case you fail to see it.....

Apple is trying to 'force' its customers to move to .MOV for video and .AAC for audio. They are backing that with a music store that only offers AAC and a portable player that only plays AAC (besides WMA). If I choose Apple I am 'forced' to use their format and don't have the freedom to choose WMA or OGG or Musepack... or whatever.

Microsoft does the same thing with WMA and WMV and they get all the **** about monopoly stuff.... while Apple frankly does the same thing (maybe even worse) and it's ok....

That is what I call a double standard.

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In case you fail to see it.....
Because if Microsoft would only support WMA on a device people would be very angry.
They already have plans to. Their digital player will be available in Europe first. They have called it the "iPod killer" and it is supposed to play Windows Video and Windows Audio. Most of the news comments I have seen are people anticipating it with excitement, not anger.
Lawsuits would be started.... etc. etc.

What a waste of money on lawyers and paperwork.

Bob, "Hey I just made a car and it only takes diesel."

George, "I am going to sue you. You cannot force me to use diesel."

That would last all of five minutes in court.

Talking about double standards
There is no double standard here. You are missing the argument entirely and have obviously done zero research on the subject. AAC is not a new technology, it has been around for ages, we simply have not had the computing power to use it effectively till now. The AAC codec is owned by Via Liscensing, a sub company of Dolby Audio. Did you hear that? Dolby Audio, an audio company that has nothing to do with Apple. Microsoft's format is relatively new and is owned by none-other than Microsoft. You seem to try and pass it off as if Apple invented the AAC codec. Apple simply did their research on what the best available in the market was and choose it. They have nothing to do with the invention of it. AND, if that wasn't enough, like evn already mentioned, 70-90 percent of online music is already sold in AAC format.
Besides that, WMA isn't that bad. It supports DRM so a lot of online music stores are gonna use it in the future. It would be pretty lame to be bouned to iTMS if I have an iPod. If another online store has a better offer I want to be able to buy my music there and still be able to play int on the iPod.

You still can. There are some stores, although very minor, that sell mp3s. I am not claiming wma is "that bad," I am claiming that there is something better out there. With the same amount of resources, why not choose the better audio? The iPod is also not by far the only player that does not support wma format. mp3 players are not a new thing and I would say *most on the market today do not support wma. Do you run around getting ****ed at those companies also?

Sure AAC is a bit better then WMA and MP3, but do you really think that I am going to convert my 20+ gb MP3 collection? I will not gain quality (since you can't recreate quality) so why bother anyways (oh and I don't give a damn about filesize).
No one suggested that you re-convert you mp3 collection. Whether you would loose quality is questionable and variable on a number of factors, but you would certainly not gain any. We were suggesting to re-rip from the original sources. It doesn't take that long and iTunes is fairly fast at ripping CDs. I usually have a CD ripped before one song is finished playing. Unless you have illegal music, in which case I would suggest asking Apple or any company to support your "collection" is just plain stupid.
lus ask yourself.... do you really hear the difference between AAC and MP3/WMA with those tiny earplugs on your iPod..... no.

Yes. And the difference is quite clear. I have a pair of studio in ear monitors that I use for my guitar monitor on stage. The backbone of these are the Shure e2 which have a standard mini-jack and are even quite popular among iPod crowds already. I will be replacing these for the e3s this summer, so I only expect it to get better. I keep uncompressed audio on my 15gb iPod, but after purchasing a mini, that is no longer a viable option. So now I use AAC, and yes I can tell the difference quite clearly. Especially with my own recorded audio.

In case you fail to see it.....

Apple is trying to 'force' its customers to move to .MOV for video and .AAC for audio. They are backing that with a music store that only offers AAC and a portable player that only plays AAC (besides WMA). If I choose Apple I am 'forced' to use their format and don't have the freedom to choose WMA or OGG or Musepack... or whatever.

We are not failing to see anything, it is you. Again, Apple does not own the AAC codec or have anything to do with it! Is it that hard to understand? It is not "their" format.

And here is where you are really missing it, you are still not "forced" to do anything because no one is "forcing" you to buy an iPod. Until someone threatens you to death, this is the weakest argument I have ever heard. If you don't like something, just simply move on and buy something else, or even nothing at all. All the iPod owners will be enjoying their devices and listening to quality music on a portable device while others will be walking around sulking about the iPod having no wma support. There are some players out already, I believe the iRiver is one that comes to mind, that already support wma. So if that is all you want in a player is wma support, then go buy an iRiver. No once is trying to make up your mind and tell you what to buy. We have obviously already made up ours.

You do not have some right to an audio codec. In fact, you have no rights at all. If Apple makes something you don't like, you have no power to change it. The only thing you do have power to do is to simply not buy it. As evn already stated, these are both corporations, and what we think is definitely not their first priority. You can argue as to whether or not the AAC codec is a good decision consumer wise all you want, but there is no denying it was a good decision business wise. With the success of the iTMS and all the other companies supporting AAC because of the newfound popularity, the wma format got a nice shot in the foot.

Edited by Fusion
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Ok that is your opinion on it.

I still feel that if I buy an iPod I am bound to the AAC format. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with it, but if another online store does offer the songs I want and iTMS doesn't I would like to be able to get those songs (which will probably be WMA).

In the current situation that is not possible.

That is why I see the iPod as a device Apple uses to tie you to iTMS.... since there isn't really much else where you can get your AAC songs

I will probably never buy an iPod... or any portable MP3/AAC/Whatever player, because I don't need it, but this remains my opinion on this issue.

Adding WMA to the iPod would give users more freedom to buy their music wherever they want.... but I guess that is not something Apple wants (and I can't blame them for that)

In a way they are even smarter then Microsoft. Microsoft sells you the XBox and loses money on it, though they earn it back through the games you buy. Apple already charge you with quite a decent amount of money for your iPod and then drains your wallet by selling you music via iTMS.

Smart move!!

Edited by Schmoove
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That is why I see the iPod as a device Apple uses to tie you to iTMS.... since there isn't really much else where you can get your AAC songs

You're close but backwards.

iPods will work fine with AAC, MP3, and WAV audio. If you have a mac you can also use AIFF and Audible formats. You can make those yourself if you want using any of a number of free encoders (iTunes can rip to any of those formats and it's a free download). If you can find a music store selling regular old MP3 files they'll work just fine on your iPod too.

The iPod isn't bound to any particular music service - it's a "free-agent" as far as music stores go.

iTMS on the other hand is carefully designed to work exclusively with the iPod. It's the best online music store, and that makes it very attractive however if you want to use your music on the road (and you don't want to burn an audio CD) then you're going to buy an iPod. That's the whole reason the store exists: Apple makes no bones about that.

You can use the iTMS without an iPod: listen to songs on your computers, and burn Audio CDs to bring them with you - but you're not really getting the full 'experience' without an iPod.

Once again you've missed the point. The iPod isn't Apple's way of getting you to use their music store, iTMS is Apple's way to get you to want an iPod: and it works very well.

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You're close but backwards.

iPods will work fine with AAC, MP3, and WAV audio.  If you have a mac you can also use AIFF and Audible formats.  You can make those yourself if you want using any of a number of free encoders (iTunes can rip to any of those formats and it's a free download).  If you can find a music store selling regular old MP3 files they'll work just fine on your iPod too.

The iPod isn't bound to any particular music service - it's a "free-agent" as far as music stores go.

iTMS on the other hand is carefully designed to work exclusively with the iPod.  It's the best online music store, and that makes it very attractive however if you want to use your music on the road (and you don't want to burn an audio CD) then you're going to buy an iPod.  That's the whole reason the store exists: Apple makes no bones about that.

You can use the iTMS without an iPod: listen to songs on your computers, and burn Audio CDs to bring them with you - but you're not really getting the full 'experience' without an iPod.

Once again you've missed the point.  The iPod isn't Apple's way of getting you to use their music store, iTMS is Apple's way to get you to want an iPod: and it works very well.

But on the same token wouldn?t it be a bigger draw to the iPod (read: get more people to buy it) if it did indeed support what the other stores were selling (wma)?

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But on the same token wouldn?t it be a bigger draw to the iPod (read: get more people to buy it) if it did indeed support what the other stores were selling (wma)?

I think so.

You think so.

Apple doesn't: and I'm willing to bet that they know more about the situation than I do.

You have a huge music collection of WMA files you bought from say walmart. You want an MP3 player and (by some miracle) the ipod now officially supports WMA so you buy a 40gb one for ~$600. Apple makes money, you're happy, everyone wins.

The problem (from apples perspective) is:

1) Their dominance in the online music distribution business is weakened because they're not the only game in town worth considering.

2) At any time you can pack up and move to another platform. When your music is in WMA (to a lesser exent even MP3) you always have one foot out the door.

An iPod might seem like a huge investment at $250-600 but it's really a tiny fraction of most people's music expenditure. The real money is in the music. My iPod contains about $5,000 worth of audio if I had to re purchase it from music stores. In the grande scheme of things - swallowing the cost of hardware is pretty easy.

The cost of the music is another matter entirely. If I would have bought all the music on my iPod from iTMS - apple would have to charge >$2000 for an iPod before it would make financial sense for me to even consider using another product. They figure:

1) Get people to invest in the iTMS one way or another (ie: the pepsi deal)

2) Once people have some money invested in iTMS they'll get an ipod if they don't have one already.

3) we make the $100 profit on the ipod, and $0 on the music they buy - but ever $1 they spend at the iTMS is another dollar they'd "lose" buy moving to another player.

4) In a few years when the 4 or 5th generation ipod ships all these people are going to want a new one and we have almost guaranteed sales of our high-end walkman: bankaccount++;

and of course the whole thing perpetuates itself - just like how people say "everyone uses windows" people will start saying "everyone uses iTMS".

or at least that's the goal.

I think it will work.

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That right there is the attitude I don't get then.

"No I will not buy an iPod because you refuse to support my crappy audio, and even though it is relatively simple to change my audio to higher qulaity at the same size, I want my crappy audio and that's all there is to it damnit."

If people are that stubborn about having windows media format, then I don't forsee them as the type of people that would appreciate an iPod.

Personally, I want my music to sound good, so I put it in the best format I know of. It just so happens that the iPod supports that format, advocates it in fact, so I am happy.

well the rio karma supports flac, and that's lossless so that's superior in sound quality to aac, and that's what im really talking about, aac isn't the end all superior format (and many say it's not even superior in lossy codec comparisons, but i don't want to get into that argument because i haven't really looked into how aac compares much)

Edited by bararum
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well the rio karma supports flac, and that's lossless so that's superior in sound quality to aac, and that's what im really talking about, aac isn't the end all superior format (and many say it's not even superior in lossy codec comparisons, but i don't want to get into that argument because i haven't really looked into how aac compares much)

Yes, as am_fek already said the iPod supports a lossless codec also. If you would have taken time to read the thread we have already explained that. That was not the point, the point was asking about wma's which is by default a lossey codec. Go and do your research before making an idiot out of yourself here.

Rio Karma :rolleyes: lol.

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You're close but backwards.

iPods will work fine with AAC, MP3, and WAV audio.  If you have a mac you can also use AIFF and Audible formats.  You can make those yourself if you want using any of a number of free encoders (iTunes can rip to any of those formats and it's a free download).  If you can find a music store selling regular old MP3 files they'll work just fine on your iPod too.

The iPod isn't bound to any particular music service - it's a "free-agent" as far as music stores go.

iTMS on the other hand is carefully designed to work exclusively with the iPod.  It's the best online music store, and that makes it very attractive however if you want to use your music on the road (and you don't want to burn an audio CD) then you're going to buy an iPod.  That's the whole reason the store exists: Apple makes no bones about that.

You can use the iTMS without an iPod: listen to songs on your computers, and burn Audio CDs to bring them with you - but you're not really getting the full 'experience' without an iPod.

Once again you've missed the point.  The iPod isn't Apple's way of getting you to use their music store, iTMS is Apple's way to get you to want an iPod: and it works very well.

I'm not backwards....

You are explaining exactly what I mean, only with a pro Apple twist.

If you can find a music store selling regular old MP3 files they'll work just fine on your iPod too.

Exactly "if", good luck finding a online music store that sells MP3 files without protection AND offers what you want (I have a weird taste sometimes, got to admit that). If I buy my music at a WMA "powered" store I can't play them on the iPod and I probably can't convert them due to the DRM.

That it plays MP3 is great, so I can still play all my MP3, but if I want to buy music online (not CD's) I am suddenly bound to iTMS, since getting music elsewhere is bloody damn hard or impossible in some cases. Even if iTMS is the best online music store, I discovered that it doesnt even offer half of the music that I have on CD (they offer 3 albums of the Fun Lovin' Criminals... I have 6 CD's here, also they offer exactly ONE song of Bran Van 3000 and they made 2 CDs full of great music).

Again I did not miss the point. The iPod was out before iTMS, but the iPod turns out to be a damn good device to let people buy music online in Apple's music store. If you have an iPod and want to buy music online this is the most convenient way and probably the only way.

iTMS isn't a way to want me get an iPod, because like I said, iTMS doesn't offer the music that I like.

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I'm not backwards....

You are explaining exactly what I mean, only with a pro Apple twist.

Exactly "if", good luck finding a online music store that sells MP3 files without protection AND offers what you want (I have a weird taste sometimes, got to admit that). If I buy my music at a WMA "powered" store I can't play them on the iPod and I probably can't convert them due to the DRM.

That it plays MP3 is great, so I can still play all my MP3, but if I want to buy music online (not CD's) I am suddenly bound to iTMS, since getting music elsewhere is bloody damn hard or impossible in some cases. Even if iTMS is the best online music store, I discovered that it doesnt even offer half of the music that I have on CD (they offer 3 albums of the Fun Lovin' Criminals... I have 6 CD's here, also they offer exactly ONE song of Bran Van 3000 and they made 2 CDs full of great music).

Again I did not miss the point. The iPod was out before iTMS, but the iPod turns out to be a damn good device to let people buy music online in Apple's music store. If you have an iPod and want to buy music online this is the most convenient way and probably the only way.

iTMS isn't a way to want me get an iPod, because like I said, iTMS doesn't offer the music that I like.

? eMusic

? Amazon.Com

? Magnatune

Along with the ability to rip ANY CD and the iTMS, what exactly are you looking for that you cannot find at one of these stores?

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? eMusic

? Amazon.Com

? Magnatune

Along with the ability to rip ANY CD and the iTMS, what exactly are you looking for that you cannot find at one of these stores?

Now that is a great suggestion.....:no: :no:

All three came with ex>0 results on "Bran Van 3000" and "Fun Lovin' Criminals". My favorite music is hardly available on sites that sell MP3s (these sites will not exist too long I think with all the DRM fuzz) only iTMS offers a couple of songs.

If I can find it on sites that use WMA I again can't use it on the iPod (which I think is the prettiest music player), though not being able to buy music online and using it on an iPod prevents me from buying one.

Sure I can rip ANY CD, but that's just the whole reason of buying music online... music on a CD is far more expensive. I pay almost 25 euro for a CD here while I could get the same thing online for 10 euro.

So.... still I stand by my opinion. I still think WMA should be enabled on the iPod, I know it will probably never happen, but untill that time I will not buy one. So to get ontopic again.... YES it would be very usefull to get WMA on an iPod, at least or me.

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Sure I can rip ANY CD, but that's just the whole reason of buying music online... music on a CD is far more expensive. I pay almost 25 euro for a CD here while I could get the same thing online for 10 euro.

Thats also another problem. CDs here in Singapore have an average selling price of around 8 Euro. Online music is still too expensive in my opinion, considering I can buy with packaging, and rip it to whatever format I wish, at whatever bitrate available. The US and Europe are being ripped off with the price of CDs, no wonder Kazaa became so popular

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Ok here is the thing. Even if they enabled the WMA codec on the iPod and paid MS for licencing fees out of their own pocket, you still would not be able to play DRM protected files on the iPOD without having iPOD support added to WMP for windows. WMP for the Mac does not support DRM WMA or syncing with any music players.

Don't blame Apple. Blame MS.

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Now that is a great suggestion..... not :no:

All three came with exactly results on "Bran Van 3000" and "Fun Lovin' Criminals". My favorite music is hardly available on sites that sell MP3s (these sites will not exist too long I think with all the DRM fuzz) only iTMS offers a couple of songs.

If I can find it on sites that use WMA I again can't use it on the iPod (which I think is the prettiest music player), though not being able to buy music online and using it on an iPod prevents me from buying one.

Sure I can rip ANY CD, but that's just the whole reason of buying music online... music on a CD is far more expensive. I pay almost 25 euro for a CD here while I could get the same thing online for 10 euro.

So.... still I stand by my opinion. I still think WMA should be enabled on the iPod, I know it will probably never happen, but untill that time I will not buy one. So to get ontopic again.... YES it would be very usefull to get WMA on an iPod, at least or me.

Well I am pretty sure Apple iPod engineers are not going to be reading neowin so why don't you shoot Apple an email explaining why YOU need wma support and I'm sure they'll be right on that. :rolleyes:

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