agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 No serious historian doubts that Jesus of Nazereth was a real person. The only question is: is He who He said he is? Jesus, unlike Mohammed, Buddha, Confucius or the founder of any other religion, said He is God in the flesh. He either is or He isn't. There's only 3 possibilities for Jesus; liar, lunatic or Lord. We all must choose. Not choosing is a choice. I can't prove God or the Bible to anyone. But before you reject it, read and study it. With an open, honest mind and heart. The evolutionists have never proved anything either. They intentionally want to confuse everyone between evolution and natural selection, which are 2 VERY DIFFERENT things. There's an organization called Back to Genesis. They go around the country debating evolutionists. They are rapidly running out of evolutionists willing to debate them. Evolution is a LIE sadly lacking in demonstrable facts. God loves you, personally, not from a distance! See what He says, he wrote us a book. You won't be sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 I for one would consider myself an evolutionist. First, khalsa, Karma is a Buddhist concept and has no direct link to a god-like entity. It is, in essence, Newton's 1st Law, with a human twist, or maybe it should be the other way around, I believe there were Buddhist's before there was physics. In any case, the Law of Karma states this: "for every event that occurs, there will follow another event whose existence was caused by the first, and this second event will be pleasant or unpleasant according as its cause was skillful or unskillful." This does not neccessarily defeat your point, but I don't believe Karma is a good way to explain death in the context of there being God. Second, to be the devil's advocate, so to speak, what is Statistics? Statistics is what scientific people, of whom most are likely to be evolutionists, use to explain why things happen. It is basically a scientific form of chance. With Statistics any event can be explained or dismissed by simply saying that "It had to happen sometime." Even things that defy reason can be dismissed on the grounds of statistical probability. I, for the sake of argument, submit that Statistics is the "God" of the scientist. I may say things that may upset people, but keep an open mind, because, and I stress, "THERE IS ALWAYS ANOTHER SIDE" and no two people believe the same exact things. From a neutral stand point, which I don't know if I am, but I'm trying, it would seem that perhaps: 1) Evolutionists may be afraid to believe in something beyond their control. That the idea of being fated and eventually judged for eternity scares them. 2)Creationists believe the opposite. They are afraid to believe that there is no eternity and that even if they live their lives as best they can, there may be no ultimate reward in the afterlife. Finally, let me just say this. In all of history, many bad things have happened to a lot of people, cultures, and civilizations. I feel very little hesitence is saying that a vast amout of them, if not the majority, are in some way religiously fueled. All it takes is one person to believe that they know the will of God and enough people willing to believe that person, and a tremendous amount of damage can be done. I'm not suggesting that religion is bad, but it can be, and has since it existed, used by anyone to manipulate those willing to believe. Religion is a very powerful tool, and can reap many rewards to those willing to embrace it, but like any tool, it has also been used in ways that resulted in some of the biggest wars the modern world has ever known. It is something to be cherished and not blindly followed. I believe that there is a midway point between belief and reason. To believe blindly is just as bad, if not worse, as not believing at all. Please, do not critisize me for my opinions, but I wanted them to be heard. I believe I have taken as neutral a position as possible. Anyone who attacks me for things I have said simply have not kept an open mind, which is another thing that has fueled a large number of conflicts our world has seen. This is a subject that can be discussed till we're all blue in the face and an ultimate truth will still not be found. My only advice is this: Live your life how you like, don't intentionally cause harm others, try your best to do right by yourself and humankind, and ENJOY LIFE ALL YOU CAN. Life is short and who really knows what lies beyond? Not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernova Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 ok you say he wrote the bible huh? How could a spirt write a book? why does he talk in third person then? actually its wrote by many of different people who are from different parts of the world at different times in history and they were just all thrown together into one hipocritical book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Your post is very thoughtful and erudite. But, what about the question? Who is Jesus? Liar, lunatic or Lord? He said He is God. If He said it knowing it wasn't true, He's a liar. If He thought He was but really wasn't, He's a lunatic. If He really is then He's The Lord God. I see no other possibility. Who do you all say He is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-fibRe Posted February 24, 2002 Author Share Posted February 24, 2002 that was very good doublej i like your idea don't take life too serious, you are not going to get out of it alive ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart I can't prove God or the Bible to anyone. But before you reject it, read and study it. With an open, honest mind and heart. There's an organization called Back to Genesis. They go around the country debating evolutionists. They are rapidly running out of evolutionists willing to debate them. Evolution is a LIE sadly lacking in demonstrable facts. First, you are right about the open mind, nut not heart. If we are to really find the truth, which there is no chance that we can, we must be entirely objective and the heart is purely subjective, that, and an organ.:D Second, what do these debater's argue. It would seen that the only arguments they have are that 1) evolution is not proven 100%; 2)that there are occurances in the world that go unexplained; and 3) the Bible. 1) Evolution does exist, that is proven. Whether it is the ultimate cause of existence cannot be proven, yet anyways. Nor can Creationists prove that God created man. 2) Yes, unexplained things happen, but thats just it, they are unexplained. If a man were to have flown 1000 years ago, what would people have though. Today we understand lift and aerodynamics. The unexplained is unexplained for good reason... it is beyond explanation of any kind that can be proven. 3) The Bible, a sensetive subject. It does exist, that is definate. Do we know how REALLY wrote it? No. Ever play telephone with your friends? Ever exagerate things to people to make things just a little more interesting? Ever lie to spare someones feelings or accomplish a "greater good"? Humans are humans, 2002 years ago and now, basically the same (evolution doesn't work that fast). Everyone exagerates, everyone lies about something. Are we to say that, with such a fantastic story as that within the bible, someone along the way didn't embelish, just a little, to make things more intersting? I'm not saying its a lie, but with all its iterations and all the time that has passed, how could a story even as remotely interesting as the Bible not have been embelished to give it that little bit more of an edge and make it more entertaining? After all, who would have listened if the Bible were dry and boring? No one. And I have yet to mention politics. The Churches and States of all the past since 2002 years ago, and even before that, all have agendas and with such a powerful book as the Bible, they had to deal with it somehow. They either had to get rid of it or they had to embrace it and make it work for them. They had to interpret it in such a way that suggested that it would benefit, or at least not harm, their empire. THE POINT? There is no evidence that can incontrovertably prove one theory over the other, but while evolutionism is based on scientific evidence and hypotheses and is constantly being revised, creationism is written in stone, as it were, and cannot be questioned or proven, it must be read and believed. There is little room in the Bible for expansion. It says what it says and the people who were there when everything went down aren't talking. When I invent my time machine I will check it all out and tell you what really happened. If your lucky I'll also tell you how the Great Pyramids were built and who shot JFK. Till then... Happy Speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Evolution has not been proven. There's not evidence of it everywhere. Even Darwin himself realized that there was a great lack of transitional fossils (none). If evolution is real, it must be taking place constantly. Therefore, there should be just as many transitional species as there are of the species we know. Where are they? Even Darwin doubted his own theory for this very reason. At best we're given a few examples of supposed transitional species, many of which were either admitted or proven to be frauds. These fossils should be EVERYWHERE if there is evolution. To paraphrase a once-popular commercial: Where's the bones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart Your post is very thoughtful and erudite. But, what about the question? Who is Jesus? Liar, lunatic or Lord? He said He is God. If He said it knowing it wasn't true, He's a liar. If He thought He was but really wasn't, He's a lunatic. If He really is then He's The Lord God. I see no other possibility. Who do you all say He is? Why do you see no other possibility? Whats to say he wasn't a liar or a lunatic? Mearly because we have heard of him even today does not mean that he isn't a liar or a lunatic. The problem is you are giving him a God-like status and then determining that the Lord could not lie and would not be a lunatic. By everyone's own admission he was a man, not a god. He was mortal. That immediatley allows him to be a lier or a lunatic, after all, he was only human. Just because there was a book written about him doesn't mean that all that was written was true. I'm sure he was a great man and helped a lot of people in his life, but there is another possibility. Jesus never declared himself to be the Lord. After he died stories were written about him that chronicled all the good he had done and it was decided somewhere along the way that elevating him to such a stature in the writings would ultimately benefit humanity. It would bring people together and how them how to work for a common good. After all, whats a little lie if it helps so many people? Who knew that it would be so widely accepted. It is entirely posible that the Bible is the largest, yet entirely good natured, lie in all of time. We know how gossip can spread today, the Bible may have started from a little gossip that has transended time to be with us today. The truth is we'll never know... until I invent my time machine and see what happened for myself.;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 No, you're not taking my statement at face value. If I say something that I know isn't true, I'm a liar. If I claim to be God and I'm not, I'm probably severely mantally ill. I have worked in a hospital for almost 20 years and I've dealt with hundreds of just such cases, trust me. There are only 2 possibilities for Jesus' words; True or False True means true, false can be either knowingly or unknowingly due to inability to tell reality from fantasy. His words are there. The choice is ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart Evolution has not been proven. True, not with 100% certainty, but it is suggested by the evidence. Perhaps the bone are all in the ocean. Where are all the bones from the past 4000 years? With the number of people that have died within the past 4000 years, we sould be up to our eyeballs in bones. Over time bones break down. With exposure to the elements it happens quicker. Another possibility other than evolution or creation, in our case anyway, is aliens. I am being completely serious, too. What says that we weren't put here by aliens so so long ago. Maybe we are an alien experiment in evolution or sociology. That would explain why they supposedly keep coming back and abducting people, they want to see how their experiment is going. Howver, this only explains things in our case. What about the alien's? Were they created or did they evolve? I suppose their existence in conjunction with ours may prove that evolution exists. This is all dependent on the existence of aliens and our connection to them, if any. At this point, it is as believable and provable theory as any other. In fact, I am going to start a new "ism"... Extra-Terrestrialism. Thats it, I am an Extra-Terrestrialist!!!:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-fibRe Posted February 24, 2002 Author Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart No, you're not taking my statement at face value. If I say something that I know isn't true, I'm a liar. If I claim to be God and I'm not, I'm probably severely mantally ill. I have worked in a hospital for almost 20 years and I've dealt with hundreds of just such cases, trust me. There are only 2 possibilities for Jesus' words; True or False True means true, false can be either knowingly or unknowingly due to inability to tell reality from fantasy. His words are there. The choice is ours. hey guys, calm down this is not a debate, just a poll. we'll wait to see if they prove that evolution is everything. for now, both of the theories are not 100% . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 I'm not assigning Him god-like status. I'm saying plainly that I am convinced He is God! This isn't some emotional irrational decision. I've studied the evidence for many years. I won't flame or look down on anyone else for their decision. I'm glad you don't either. I just want people to know that the decision must be made and why I mae the one I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart No, you're not taking my statement at face value. If I say something that I know isn't true, I'm a liar. If I claim to be God and I'm not, I'm probably severely mantally ill. I have worked in a hospital for almost 20 years and I've dealt with hundreds of just such cases, trust me. There are only 2 possibilities for Jesus' words; True or False True means true, false can be either knowingly or unknowingly due to inability to tell reality from fantasy. His words are there. The choice is ours. My point is, How are we to know that the words of the Bible are his words? We don't. For us to have faith in the Lord and God, be must first have faith that the words are his and that they are true. Thats basing faith on faith. In science it is called basing conjecture on conjecture. This is never a good thing to do. In this case, one must believe fully in the truth of the words of the Bible as they pertain to Jesus so that one can believe that Jesus was our Lord so that we can then believe that the Bible is true. If but one thing in the Bible is a deliberate lie, just one, the entire argument falls apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 It's a most excellent poll too! I think we're being very calm, I certainly hope so! I almost never post on these kind of things, but I like this one. The Bible tells me to always be ready to give an answer, and I try to be. If anyone feels anything I've posted was rede etc. they certainly have my apologies. I've taken no offense at anything else posted. I spent many years with many of the views I've seen posted here. I know where they're coming from. So few Christians are willing to state their views plainly in public for fear of going against the tide. I don't subscribe to that phobia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldyn Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by DoubleJ In fact, I am going to start a new "ism"... Extra-Terrestrialism. Thats it, I am an Extra-Terrestrialist!!!:D LMAO. Dammit ! Count me in too ! :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 They were recorded by eye witnesses. Who heard them spoken. Men who travelled with Jesus for years in the case of Matthew and John. James was His half-brother! If we're going there, we can't claim to know much of anything. Certainly not things we are being told happened billions of years ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by ventsi83 hey guys, calm down this is not a debate, just a poll. we'll wait to see if they prove that evolution is everything. for now, both of the theories are not 100% . Why not? There is nothing wrong with debate, infact it is mutually benefitial to all those involved assuming things stay rational and in perspective. I am not looking to change anyone mind, nor is anyone else trying to change mine. It is one thing to explore though within ones own head, but when those thoughs are shared and discussed, even debated, with others, thoughts arise that may never have otherwise. This is true fo me atleast. To come up with a rational argument for what you believe and to defend it brings up things that may never have been considered. Personnaly I find debate one of the most productive ways to expand one's mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Dumb question: I like it where you put part of the other posts in yours. Is that a cut and paste or what? (I told you I don't post much!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart They were recorded by eye witnesses. Who heard them spoken. Men who travelled with Jesus for years in the case of Matthew and John. James was His half-brother! If we're going there, we can't claim to know much of anything. Certainly not things we are being told happened billions of years ago! True, but all were also human, capable of lying or being lunatics. Of all the reasons not to believe that the Bible is 100% true, I would choose to believe that it was created to join together people who felt they had no hope and little reason to live. There was no hurtful intent in the words of the Bible and it was not known that it would spread so far or last so long. Just because those who wrote the Bible spent a lot of time with Jesus does not automatically guarantee that thier words are true. Looking to today's society and the judicial system, eyewitensses often lie in court, for varying reasons, not all of which are intended to cause harm. Again, the faith in the words of the Bible is based on the integrity of those who wrote it of whose integrity we have only the words of the Bible to confirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldyn Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 It's called quoting. Just hit the quote button beneath the post you wish to quote from.... ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faction Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 I feel obliged to say creatisosm because im catholic.. but to be 100% honest i believe in evolution. I still believe god exsists though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blar Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Creationism is the biggest load of crap I've ever dealt with in my entire life. It is nothing more than religion prancing around as a pseudo-science, trying to convince people of an ultra-fundamentalist view of the Bible that is, thank God, dying off. If anything the September 11th attack has taught us, it is that fundamentalists of any religion are dangerous, illogical morons that need to be isolated and ignored. All they do is try and take humanity back into an era of ignorance and hate. I live in the bible belt of the United States, home of the highest divorce rate in the world. Needless to say, I know what these "fundies" are capable of. People try to spoon-feed me drivel such as "THE EARTH IS 6000 YEARS OLD!! EVOLUTION IS A LIE!!" constantly. How people can believe crap like this is beyond me. Coincidentally, 99% of these people have never been to college. Gee, what a shock. Well, I was getting ready for a huge rant against fundies and creationists, but I just realized that it's 2:30 a.m. and I'm extremely tired. I'll be back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart Dumb question: I like it where you put part of the other posts in yours. Is that a cut and paste or what? (I told you I don't post much!) Right at the bottom of each individual post there is an edit button (if it is your post) and a quote button which quotes the particular post. It can also be done by cutting and pasting the selection you want and then using the quote button on the "Post Reply" page located above the "Your Reply" section and below "Message Icon" section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Thanks Keldyn! But, DoubleJ: you must have studied under Heisenberg of infinite uncertainty fame! The fact is, the words are there. There's no valid reason to believe they were not spoken or altered. There are more manuscripts of the Bible, written closer to their actual events than any other work of it's time by a 10,000%. There are 100 x as many Bible manuscripts written centuries closer to the time they spoke of than there are of Plato or Aristotle. Why is it when words are attributed to them no one claims they have been altered or were never spoken? I'm not being flippant. I asked myself that question once. The answer I got surprised me. Well, being a middle-aged wimp, I'm going to bed. I have a class of 5th-8th graders waiting for me in the morning. God bless you all. It's been fun and worthwhile both. Hope to hear from some of you another time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blar Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by Faction I feel obliged to say creatisosm because im catholic.. but to be 100% honest i believe in evolution. I still believe god exsists though. Faction, don't give into the idiots because they say "GOD SAYS SO!!!". The Catholic Church's officially believes in evolution and actively teaches it. Listen to the Pope instead of the Southern Baptists who say that Catholics aren't Christians. And that last line was not exagerated at all :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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