thuggers Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 funny that, the greeks centuries before "jesus" tought and did more for humanity than organized religion ever did. As far as i can tell organized religion has caused nothing but war, hate and segregation of races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abysal Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 I would have to say I belive in Evolution. I was brought up as a Christian, but those beliefs never made me truely follow that faith, becuase I think that now it's "Mans faith" rather then what God would have Intended. However that being said, What if Creation comes from thought, from the thought of a powerfull being or many power beings as comapred to us? What if we as humans also have the power to creat reality with the way we percieve things. If this is the case then God is as real as I am. What if we are GOD? Tired of our omnious existance, we choose to come back to this reality, to be born and to experience learning and discovery. And after which we die... we go back, perhaps to come back to our creation and live it again? I don't know this is a evolving theory of mine, since there are things or (thoughts/theories) such as psychic phenomena, god, aliens. But then again what do I know, like some one said that 2000 years ago if I would have seen some of our current technology I would have thought it was magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by Blar Creationism is the biggest load of crap I've ever dealt with in my entire life. By the tone of my posts so far and my admission, I believe in evolition, but I believe your post was unneccessarily harsh. However, if I live in a place where I had everyone telling me what I believed was a lie I might tend to show less respect to those who said that. I am pretty sure that those people who critisized you are no on this forum, though. Anyway, as for your college remark, with the seperation of church and state, the school systems, and even most all colleges and courses, cater to those who believe in evolution. Don't get me wrong, I do not believe religion should be taught in schools. Religion, in public schools especially, would most likely just result in unneccessary confict and violence. With all the different beliefs and the irrational and confrontational nature of adolesents, it would only cause problems. Even adults who believed strongly in their beliefs may be drawn to violence when their beliefs are questioned. Probably only a small number in the grand sceme of things, but enough to deter us from propogating it by sanctioning religion in schools when we know full well that there will be too many beliefs to cater to fairly and evenly. By nature, and by law, schools do not teach religion, not because it is a "load of crap" but because it is such a passionate and provoking subject no matter what beliefs you bay have. All unneccessary conflict when the primary goal is to teach people reading, writing, and arithmatic.. oh, and lets not forget gym class, the bestest class of all.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoria Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by agrumpyoldfart Your post is very thoughtful and erudite. But, what about the question? Who is Jesus? Liar, lunatic or Lord? He said He is God. If He said it knowing it wasn't true, He's a liar. If He thought He was but really wasn't, He's a lunatic. If He really is then He's The Lord God. I see no other possibility. Who do you all say He is? DoubleJ, I totaly agree with you opinion. agrumpyoldfart, and other people stop reading the bible as an absolute truth and word of god. The Bible is around 5000 years old, and has been written and edited by many people in that time, of whom many are unknown. There are many true historical facts and stories in the Bible, but what I think is rediculous, is all of those people who are blindly reading it word by word. THe Bible is a good book full of many thoughtfull stories, but get a grip, its just a book. And the other thing is that THe Old Testament which is recognized by the Muslim and the Christian religion was written in Old Hebrew language, so I dont know why all of the religious wars and hatereds are about? Get a clue people, we are all the same and we are all going to end up the same, more or less. Jews, Muslims , Christians , etc.. it all started from the same place, so go figure.... There is no wrong or right religion, there is only believe and hope. Cheers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StimpyX Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 RE: Fossil evidence (I'll avoid a long diatribe on this, because for those who actually want to know, the information is out there in truckloads.) Simply put, the fossil evidence IS there for many species of animals. For example, in the genus of Equus (Horses), there are many long and well-defined trails between the occasional transitional gaps (yes, I'm aware of the standard roll call of creationists continued attempts to debunk this). But why are there gaps at all? I don't understand why it's hard to see how many periods of time failed to leave behind little to no fossilized strata for us to find. Bone doesn't keep well through the ages unless preserved (i.e. fossilized) under specific conditions. Those conditions not being met = no fossils. An examination of the causes (at least, one that covers them better than I ever could) is found in the TVF FAQ. So I certainly don't agree with the stand that there are no transitional fossils, nor that what gaps do exist should keep us from being able to attempt to fill in details where the evidence ends up lacking. As an example to my point, an Archeologist is often forced to reconstruct ancient dwellings based on the smallest of remaining features, such as post holes, masonry outlines, etc. They base their reconstruction on many factors, some of it coming from the knowledge and evidence gained over many years within their fields and disciplines of study. Does this mean that what they end up building is an exact duplicate of what was originally there? No, not at all. But it also doesn't mean they are wrong in the general design or in all the details of their work, or that it should not be accepted as "factual". But I'll end by simply saying: no science (when actually being honest with itself) can provide 100% complete and absolute proof on a *theory* like evolution through natural selection nor claim to have a corner on the truth -- an attitude I honestly wish the world's religions would pick up on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 The fact is, the words are there. There's no valid reason to believe they were not spoken or altered. Sure there is a valid reason not to believe they were spoken. Did you here them? Do you personally know someone who heard them? Already, that would be hearsay. Forget that it was only written that someone said that 2000 years ago. Do you believe everything you read in the newspaper?... And that was only what someone said yesterday. There are more manuscripts of the Bible, written closer to their actual events than any other work of it's time by a 10,000%. There are 100 x as many Bible manuscripts written centuries closer to the time they spoke of than there are of Plato or Aristotle. And were any two of them exactly the same? Each author took his own artistic liberties with what they wrote. At the very core there must be a common truth, but what that is cannot be verified from the words of those very works since it is the works that we are trying to verify. Only centuries closer? It wasn't the day after of a week or a year? Centuries? There is enough problems trying to interpret the exact meaning of out fore-fathers in the constitution and that was only 226 years ago... and we have the original! Besides, what language were they written in? Things are always lost in translation, even between the languages used today. Imagine translation after tranlstion trough the years. Also, Plato and Aristotle were approching things from a scientific stand point. In fact, they denied all existence until they thought they could find evidence to prove their theory. Granted, their theories depended on the existence of a "Perfect Being", but they weren't arguing history, ONLY the meaning of life, which, as far as I know, no one has figured out yet. Why is it when words are attributed to them no one claims they have been altered or were never spoken? What's that? Aren't I questioning them right now? Aren't they questioned everyday by "non-believers"? Those who never question them are also the ones who believe them in the first place. Besides, in centuries past, it has been considered bad to reject the word of God. It was sacrilege to do so and I believe it was punishable by death. Why would anyone want that? In more modern times as the punishment for not believing has become nothing, more people choose not to take the Bible at face value. The Bible was the single largest piece of propoganda during the Medieval times. That is nothing against the Bible itself, just its usage during this point in history. It was used to conquer nations and execute traitors and blasphemous people. It was warped to serve the needs of the kings and the royalty. Whats to say that this hasn't been the case all along? Well, It's my time to retire for the night. By the time I come back tomorrow this thread will probably be past 10 pages.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoria Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 True, true... I absolutly agree with your statment, DoubleJ. The Bible has been writen and edited by many different people under different rules. If you read the Old Testament, you'll be able to see how the anger of god changes to differen people as rulers change. Even nowerdays history books have flaws and false statment, and you can imagne the validity of the statements in the bible which are few thousand years old. There has been also many errors in the translation from hebrew to english and to other languages. There are many wordsand expresions that have double meanings, so in many cases it was the translators decision of what words to use to describe the meaning of the statments writen in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dysphoria Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Yeah, Good Night from me too....:sleeping: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P. Administrators Posted February 24, 2002 Administrators Share Posted February 24, 2002 I think we under estimate our OWN powers of being. Its my belief that the world that society created for us disallows us to be free, locking us down in the body. Think of it for minute, you have all these people with "special powers" ESP, clairvoincy and pre instictive thoughts. Like when yourself says No! Im not getting in that plane.. and it crashes. We dismiss it as easily as others would dismiss God People blame god for natural disasters, yet with all the technology we have today why do people still choose to live on a fault line or under the mouth of a volcano? I mean you cant blame everything on God Im not going to go into my beliefs, but I think that people should look to themselves first before placing their faith in something that gives no answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
params Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 What an excellent thread :) Only just seen it. I'm glad DoubleJ mentioned extra-terrestrialism as it means I can post a link to an article I wrote a few years back - it's too long to put here. It's called Genealogy v Ufology: the true nature of mankind's evolution? It discusses whether the process of evolution of natural or whether there was influence by some external force (extra terrestrials) Hope you like it: Genealogy v Ufology P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Evolution. Where does Religion come from? It comes from the bible, fundamentally, and what is the bible? A book compiling a set of short stories, in which demons, fighting, gods, and omni present figures are all part of. Its a book, much the same as any fantasy bookyou would pick up. With the exception that its dressed in Morals and Values. But who created the bible, who wrote it who compiled it? Humans, so what does that tell you about the Legitamacy of religion. And hence since religion is the corner stone of creationsim, what does that tell you about that theory. Look at alot of the conflicts manking has had, or going on in the world today, what are they over, religion and different religious groups. How is that a person in Palestine can hate, all the people of Isreal, without even knowing who they are, what there like? Simply because they have a different religious style to them. Theres nothing Holy about hate spurned from Religion. On the other side - People need something to believe in and put hope in, when they face times of need, Religion helps some people with that. The Debate - We stand on the threshold of a new Era. The Genetic and Biotechnologies progress daily, despite the concerns of people, technology such as cloning even will progress, and this very technology will create Humans. Thus making us Gods. This same technology will also evolve us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babis Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Follow a few simple suggestions A. No flaming other religions B. Don't try to convince, try to educate C. Don't try to put down others because it makes no sense whatsoever to you. (no one believed that we could have an heliocentric system, but we do, noone believed we could reach the moon, but we did, etc...) D. Imagine yourself in other poeple's shoes, who knows you might learn something Some comments I just wanted to add: Do poeple here consider religion as a set of practices and beliefs (most philosophers/scientists/etc.. agree with the aforemnentioned definition) Anyhow, I really don't want poeple to start flaming others or putting them down.. on a side note for every type of belief in this thread, there is a logical explanation to contradict it.... that's why I ask for all to just share views.. and keep it clean... (note logical, but again each belief has its "unique" way of making it the real one) other than that... some really good points have been discussed here -a simple request from a fellow neowinian Babis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glowstick Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 If creationism would be the truth... Why does your body consists out of tiny little cells, which each different purpose? Why do they need to regenerate? Why do they need to split? Why do we have DNA which controls the cell generation? Why do we have a brain that works using electrical impulses? Why do we need to eat to generate energy to survive? Why do we need to drink to keep our body from dehydrating/dieing? Expanding it to the earth... Why is it round? Why is it finite? Why does it consists out of atoms? Expanding this to the universe... Why are there atoms? Why do atoms from molecules? Why do the different atoms behave that different? Same for molecules? Why is there so much 'empty' space out there? Why are so much unuseable planets out there? Why is there hot and cold? Why is there energy? Blah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aco Veteran Posted February 24, 2002 Veteran Share Posted February 24, 2002 Evolution: A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. Where did that original something come from? I don't know and neither does anyone else. The question which you have posed transcends anyone on this earth's understanding. Since something has to be created for evolution to exist, I'd rather believe in creationism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosnhojm Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Creationism. I will not argue this, nor defend it; most of you would not listen anyways. It is just my own opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftboomer Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by abysal What if we are GOD? Tired of our omnious existance, we choose to come back to this reality, to be born and to experience learning and discovery. And after which we die... we go back, perhaps to come back to our creation and live it again? Thanks for quoting the "Conversations with God" series of books. Why couldn't "God" have created evolution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glowstick Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Throw a couple of chemicals together... Hey it forms a molecule! Some some more chemicals together and let time and hazard run over it... Hey, we got a living cell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cub-x Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Evolution, definitly... Dust in space -> compression -> big bang -> big ball o' magma -> cooled down earth with H2O all around it -> tiny micro organism -> etc etc etc Nothing really proves creationism.. From the documents retrieved from those caves in Qatar or Qumran (I thought it was Qumran), which described the bible 2000 years ago (and looks very similar), we already translated some sections different as the current bible.. (I'm talking about the 'Dead Sea Scrolls') The pope has forbidden to publicize most of the contents of those documents, because it would destroy the way we believe! Well, is he afraid that the real-truth will come out? Or is he afraid that all religions prove to be an idiot way of living? I dunno! But it is certainly strange that we are not allowed to read the bible as it was 2000 years ago! With all respect to those who do believe, I just think it is a way to explain certain events in life, and having a red-line through your life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernova Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 /me agrees with cub-x I am catholic and was brought up as a catholic for 14 years now for the past three years I have questioned god, and have came to the conclusion that there is none. I believe that when i die i will be buried in the ground and my carcus will be eatin and that will contribute to the circle of life, just like in the wild when animals die other eat there bodies and they live on but when they die something eats them and it all goes around. I believe the big bang theroy 100% look we are made up of atoms and all kinds of other things and so are other animals, and micro-organizims we are all mostly made up of the same things...given time we will evolve and so will they....Hopefully we will become even smarter then before We have kinda evolved in past 100 years looked how we have adapted to all these new chemicals that are being burned each day and release into our water we were never used to that stuff eariler in time And there are actually humans evolving everyday.... from sperm and an egg, they eventually turn into a baby Oh another thing....Crude Oil that is created from milllions of years ago from grass, dead things being trees, animals, maybe even humans....and when the earth from over time compacting somehow which i know is proved but i dont know exactly how has created crude oil which is eventually changed into oil, gas, plastic and loads of other things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MulletRobZ Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 I might be a diest, but I am an evolutionist because I'm more fond of science than religion. Academics and practical knowledge are my route, but I have a spiritual side as well! The idea of creationism is too ridiculous because how on Earth can something just appear all of sudden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StimpyX Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Originally posted by Webgraph I might be a diest, but I am an evolutionist... Would that make you a dievolutionist? Sorry, just too tasty to pass up! And as for your Q, it is (ironically) the same one creationists ask. It's all strange, wouldn't you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cub-x Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 That's my believe too; science. I need hard evidence that we are put here and why before I believe it... Creationism didn't prove itself yet.. Evolution has. (On the other hand, due to my alien-abduction experiences :p, we could be dumped here by some alien life-form, a.k.a. God to many people ;), just like we put monkeys in cages ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtgriffith Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Evolution: A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. Where did that original something come from? I don't know and neither does anyone else. The question which you have posed transcends anyone on this earth's understanding. Since something has to be created for evolution to exist, I'd rather believe in creationism. I agree with aco 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P. Administrators Posted February 24, 2002 Administrators Share Posted February 24, 2002 Is it possible that Mankind found the answer to the "reason of being" and it was oppressed like many other things today? I feel pretty bitter that in the time of man we have VERY little to go on when it comes to History. various beliefs wiped out a whole catalog of knowledge because of oppression or fear. and to be frank I don't believe mankind will ever get over this looking at the events of the past 100 years. to be able to say where we come from is easy because scientists do a pretty good job of saying that all the conditions that "created" the planet Earth allowed life to "evolve" from atoms or molecules. where there are chemicals that mix you will get reaction to action over billions of years its posible that it came to this (hell, possible? we are living it!) The point is how? and why.. maybe there doesnt need to be a reason why ;) ever consider that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StimpyX Posted February 24, 2002 Share Posted February 24, 2002 Neobond: So in other words "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and... evolve." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts