Evolution or Creationism


  

166 members have voted

  1. 1. Evolution or Creationism

    • Evolution
      109
    • Creationism
      57


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no, all I am saying is the reason we are here could be as simple as the conditions and nothing more.

Its the same as why one rock on the moon might be warmer than another, its because the sun may shine on it while it doesnt on another.

I think if that could be proven we may just look to ourselves more and what we can do to better ourselves.

Isnt it a shame that we never went to Mars in the 1990's due to the cost (not due to the resources or technology) our whole way of living spells out oppression in one way or another.

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Creationism... their had to be something that created the thing to evolve in the first place... but then what created the thing that created the first thing in the first place. PARADOX!, atleast i think that what you call it.

But n-e ways the bible says god existed since the begining. So i am gonna go w/ creationism. In the beging the was nothing... untill god said otherwise and made some stuff.

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This is why other Christians have problems with me.

It seems I usually stand alone in my views, as a Christian, that evolution is a tool that God has used to develop life. I have always thought that since even Jewish Old Testament scholars admit that many of the early stories from Genesis and 'The Books of Mosis' were adapted by early Jews from Sumeria & the early Sumerian mythos, the stories of creation were more of a poetic way for early, unscientific man to relate to God's creation.

From a scientific standpoint, it seems obvious when observing the relation between everything from the sub-quantum level of existance to the insanely incomprehensible scales of the cosmos, that some greater, uncomprehensible power is beyond what we can imagine.

Trillions of atoms in the smallest piece of rock, just a fraction of the Earth; a speck in the scale of the galaxy...a drop in this single universe. A universe that may be 1 among an infinite number.

Yet as a believer in the traditional Christian God, and one who believes in the miracles of a God made flesh, I am ridiculed by my own fellow Christians, who seem to place limits on the power of an infinite God. People who would shape God by their own minds, instead of considering the beauty and the power of the infinite.

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BTW; I think it's funny that the fact we are here points to some greater power;

If the universe had bee accelerating at a slightly higher rate after the big bang, conditions would not have been right for stars to form and we would not be here.

If the universe had bee accelerating slower, same thing- we would not be here.

Hotter? no.

Colder? no.

Balance of energy/ matter off? no more us. and so on and so forth. Conditions for us to be here are exactly perfect for us to be here. Any variation and we would never have occured.

That just amuses me.

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Originally posted by deadzombie

BTW; I think it's funny that the fact we are here points to some greater power;

If the universe had bee accelerating at a slightly higher rate after the big bang, conditions would not have been right for stars to form and we would not be here.

If the universe had bee accelerating slower, same thing- we would not be here.

Hotter? no.

Colder? no.

Balance of energy/ matter off? no more us. and so on and so forth. Conditions for us to be here are exactly perfect for us to be here. Any variation and we would never have occured.

That just amuses me.

Yes, but Statistical probability says that given enough opportunities every possible outcome will have a chance to be realized. Our universe is billions of years old. Who knows what was before that? Who knows what will be after our universe is no more? It is entirely possible that the universe has been "born" and "reborn" a thousand time over, maybe a million or billion. With the end of each universe all traces of its existence are gone and everything begins again fron the smallest divisions of matter.

Also, why did things happen the way they did? Why does a marble on the edge of a bowl, when released, find its way to bottom center of that bowl? Why do things fall when elevated and unsupported? Equilibrium. All things "strive" for balance. For all things there is one "perfect" state of being, which given time, all things will achieve. The universe consists of matter and must obey certain fundamental laws that have been researched and proven. Is it possible that these laws are mistaken? Sure, but future study and discovery will not disprove them, as they are 100% true as we know things to be, they will only be modified to include new discoveries while remaining true to what is already known. While science leaves room for and encourages the search for new knowledge religion seems to be stuck in the past, trying to convince us of things that cannot be proven or even attepted to be understood. Religion is static, unchanging by definition, that it is the history of how things were and history cannot be altered. The recent attempts to adopt evolution as a tool for God and creationism is mearly an effort to try to salvage religion in the face of new knowledge. What for years refused to accept that evolution as possible and refuted it at every turn, religion now adopts it in an attemp to save the beliefs that have been the foundation for so many lives and civilizations.

Science has always existed in such a way that it encouraged challenge. Challenges of what we believe to be scientific fact are the basis of what science really is. A never-ending and constantly changing field of study that attempts to explain our world and universe based on facts. Religion has always been the opposite. Unchanging, true to the words of the Bible. And challenges were met with critisizm and many times those who challenged were labeled blashphemous and made quite, one way or another. It is convinient that the Bible, by definition, must be accepted on 100% faith, with no evidence or coroboration of any kind. The fact that it cannot be proven is used as proof in itself that it must be true by those who believe. Now, with evolution seemingly more likely, religion considers adopting it in an attept to save it from being disproven. That which defied it at all costs now embraces it as it own. This is both hypocritical and blashemous and must bring question to those who hold the Bible as an ultimate truth.

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I hold the Bible as an ultimate truth, but never in my own existance have I considerd it to contradict what is possible in a scientific, natural world. Nor do I hold it as 'factual'. Sometimes what is true and what is fact are seperate.

Was the earth covered by a single, worldwide flood? Probably not, but ask anyone if the world was flooded in the Mesopotanian region during the time of the flood and they would tell you, truthfully, yes.

Too many insist the book itself is factual, while ignoring its truths. ...while too many others throw out the truths simply because not all of it's stories are factual.

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IT just comes from mans inability to say "I don't know," people seem to be afraid of not knowing the unknown, I guess some find not knowing where they come from and how they got here frightining and need to come up with their own little story about how it came to be, unfortunatly people do become obsessed with their excuses and feel a need to justify their ideas through territorial wars and crusades against people who they don't feel they can see eye to eye with.

The whole thing is quite sad really, some people just fail to realize that no matter what source life comes from, we share the same point. be it scientific or some diety of some sort.

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I think I can best express my argument through the words of Albert Einstein:

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. The religion which based on experience, which refuses dogmatic. If there's any religion that would cope the scientific needs it will be Buddhism...

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity.

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I have to disagree;

PEOPLE cause wars. Whatever the cause may be, the responsibility for all conflict falls upon people.

Science and religion have always complimented each other to me. Science is our observation, our measurement and understanding of this infinite creation. Does our understanding of evolution make it any more miraculous than the paranormal occurances we do not yet understand?

Religion has it's bad points; all caused by people. Science has some bad points; again caused by people. But I'm an optimist, we'll either destroy the Human race in a nuclear holocaust brought about by some religious fanatics(lol), or we won't. Either way, things will be as they should...

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lets also believe that everything was just here all the time even the solar system and all the planets that belong to it

lets also believe we were once apes, and fish

and in a few thousand/million more years we'll end up being birds

its better to believe in a higher up being than to believe in man who makes mistakes just like the rest of us

sure science is useful but the day i believe a big bang happened and our race was once made up of big retarded monkeys and dolphins are smarter than us is a day that will never come

better to die believing in something other than what man(scientists) have said rather than to die believing in how we evolved from all types of creatures then you turn out to be wrong and you'll be looking/feeling like a dumbass

you have absolutely nothing to lose by believing we arent all knowing.

you've got everything to lose by not believing in **** then turning out to be wrong :D

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ventsi83

my religious views are my own but for the sake of the topic i will say evolution. i do not try to impose my beliefs on others nor do i practice anything. i go about my life as if none of it existed. just something thats there, but not.

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/edit

on second thought nevermind

ventsi83 may i ask what part of europe you are from?

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Well, I have thought about this for a long time.. and heres what i think.

First of all, i think any person from any religion believing in something just because of "faith" is plain foolish. I think that if you want to believe in something, you must have PROOF or REASONS why you believe in what you do. Just because you were brought up a certain way doesnt mean you should be brainwashed.

I would like to become a doctor when i grow up, and I personally love science and technology. However, I DO believe in God and creationalism for many reasons. As well I believe in evolutionism. They both play a role - not just one of them alone. Here is my proof.

The first is life itself. If you look at a cell, all it is is made up of carbon, hydrogen, etc. Cells are made out of non-living components. If, sometime in the future, someone was able to see EXACTLY how a cell's structure is, and that person took the atoms that made up the structure and aligned them, exactly the way the cell is structured - would that mix of atoms begin to move, to LIVE? I think not.. there must be a key, or something else that explains why things can live. Just non-living atoms, mere bits of matter cannot come together and become 'alive'. As we know, all living things come from existing living things. All cells came from a predecessor cell. Then tell me - how did the first cell appear? Surely creationalism plays a role there. How did that cell, over billions of years, become part of something so great as the human body? Creation and evolution plays a part there.

The second reason that I believe in creationalism is the money to human theory. If monkeys evolved into humans, why do monkeys still exist? Should they not be humans? Surely monkeys from all these different areas on the earth could somehow miracely evolve to form the EXACT same type of being..

The next reason is why i belive in god, or souls. When you think, talk, breathe, eat.. is that all electricity flowing through you telling you what to feel and think? Is it all just hormones? I think that just the very essence of me - my thoughts, the way I choose to lead my destiny, is not just electricity flowing through my nerves. There has to be something else in there that determines how we want to think. Just close your eyes and think - just THINK. Is that all just your nerves in your brain? Or is there something else - your essence which is really you - you are your soul. Im not sure if youve heard of the study on the soul, my english teacher told me about it and showed us an article. It was done at a university; a very old woman who was going to die very soon because of a disease (i dont remember what it was - cancer?) agreed to die on top of a a weighing machine for the scientific community. The weighing machine was extremely accurate, to 0.0001 grams (i think), and as the woman died on top of this weigher - the very second she had died, there was a drop in her weight, I believe it was 0.02 grams. that is perhaps more proof of a soul.

Anyway, im very tired (2 am) but here are my views. Please, critisize me, and read what ive written - i want to have a better understadning of life :)

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Evolution is a FACT to anyone who understands it.

Statements like "We didn't come from monkeys" proves how ignorant people are in regards to evolution.

Evolution never said we came from monkeys.

Why is it that "non-believers" know so much more about the world and even religion itself (I've read the bible 45 times and can out-quote any priest)? A "believer" is an individual who is simply insecure and can't possibly imagine that the world is as dark and lonely as it is.

Remember that the dark usually hides the truth.

Loneliness is not a bad thing (or a sad view) - it is a naturalistic view - just go out into the woods and take a look around. There is no love, there is no hapiness, there is no joy - there is simply nature - violent, unpredictable, deadly, and brutal.

I am an incredibly happy, secure, and content person - and I don't believe there ever was a god, or ever will be.

Accordingly, complexity does not provide evidence for existance. Most people have no idea how relativity, or quantum matter, or the combustion engine, or a microchip, or multi-dimensional universal theory, or string theory, or anti-matter, or rocket propulsion, or DNA, or childbirth, or emotion, or life work and function -- yet they take place or are a part of our daily existance every moment we are alive to breath.

That is how it is. True happiness is found only in admitting that all that we have, know, and love is RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW. Do not squander your life, do not live without meaning, carpae dium, and so forth. If you ask me, there is more spirituality, value, and beauty found in the precious, temporal nature of each of our lives then in the hope for a holy "reboot" once we've past that gate and entered the "pure joy" of some unimaginable heaven.

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Also, in regards to Vaxop,

Newton spent his whole life looking for a change in weight in dieing people - he never found any.

Recall, also that the human heart is a PUMPING device - it contains an ever slight amount of momentum. Have you ever moved back and forth on a scale? The weight changes right? Exactly - the heart pumps, giving the effect of increased weight, the heart stops - that weight is miraculously "lost".

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I am a student of biology, and after reading through most of this thread I would like to make some comments that I think will help some people out.

1. No offense to anyone, but I doubt many of you can give the "accepted" definition of evoultion... Evolution is not the spontaneous generation of a unique organism, as some posts seem to indicate (in fact the post that indicated lack of fossil evidence for evolution was fairly wrong... There is a fairly significant amount of fossil evidence for the evolution of many organsims). It is merely the changing of the allelic frequencies from one generation to another. (an allele is a variation of a gene and a gene is a sequence of DNA that when coded for, produce a protein of some sort. Genes can be divided into individual codons, or a sequence of three bases (adenine, guanine, cytosine, or thymine) on a strand of DNA that can be translated into a single amino acid. A series of amino acids make a protein when they assume a specific shape... Proteins come in the form of enzymes, structural proteins, etc...) Simply, it is the change in the genetic stucture of a organism (or population) through generations... I could go on, but it'd take a long time and I'm lazy.

2. Evolution does not happen in a single generation. For that matter it usually doesn't happen in 2 or 10 or even 100... It takes hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years... And usually thousands (or more) of generations for any significant variation to occur (there are always exceptions, but I'm speaking in terms of human evolution). The bottom line here is that it does not happen overnight. It's not like a chimp 100,000 some odd years ago gave birth to a man (homo sapien)... I think this is where lots of people get hung up. You can't compare humans from 2000 years ago to humans today and say, "Oh look, evolution has occured for certain." But compare us to neanderthals or our other pre-historic relatives and you can see the change very clearly.

3. Some evidence for evoltuon is: As stated in some posts, morpholoical evidence such as whales having the vestiges of a pelvic girdle and humans having a "tail bone" are present (actually a certain proportin of humans are actually born with a tail because sometimes DNA that is usually dormant, but has not been fixed a ratio of 0 in our gene pool, is expressed... you never know about this because doctors cut the tail off when the baby is born). At a genetic level, DNA translation has been conserved so much that a simple one celled bacteria can produce human proteins (recombinant DNA technology), because triplets in DNA call in the same amino acids for nearly every living thing on earth (if that's not soild evidence then I don't know what is).

3. In biology, you can never prove a theory for fact. That is why it is called a theory and not a truth or a fact. You can prove theories wrong, but never 100% right - you can merely back them up with quantitative evidence and experimentation. Theories are dynamic and are frequently modified and added to. That said, evolution is one of the most strongly supported theories that exists. Most of you would say you believe in gravity, wouldn't you? Why do you believe that this idea is the truth? More than likey the answer would be because it is backed up with evidence, it is proven with mathematical constructs, or I can see it work. Well evolution has been backed up by evidence, and mathematical models can be made for evolutionary events. And lastly, if you only believe in things that your senses tell you is true or that you can observe directly in front of you, then why do you belive in creationism (I'm sure I can safely say that no one here saw the creation happen)? Just because you can't see evoultion take place from day to day, it does not mean it is not happening.

By the way, the name for God as the creater and evolution as a happening after this inital creation is called intelligent design. I myself, being a student of biology, do not subscribe to the creation story or intelligent design. I think that people need a more solid educational background in the theory of evolution. If this were to happen, I think more people would see that it is a valid and well supported theory. I hope this edifies someone... Or at least sparks their interest as to find out more about evolution.

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Why does this sound like one of those Evangelion discussions??

Well, anyway, have you ever heard of the "watch-maker" theory? God created life, and then left. So life was allowed to go its own way. Kinda allows both creationism and evolution.

And BTW, evolutionism is NOT proven. Scientists would have you think that it is. But it is not proven as a scientific fact yet.

Even great scientists such as Einstein acknowledged that there is something, an intelligence greater than men out there, orchestrating life and the complex universe. And he was one of those who had done more scientific studies than any of us here.

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so sad, scientists can never prove themselves right (with exceptions) yet the religious devote claim truth daily through there "divine right"

and whoever said religion doesn't cause wars people do...

I assume bin laden attacked the us in hopes for territorial expansion? or the KKK harases and kills blacks for fun? what about the prodestant revolt in germany? or the crusades or or or.... the fact is religion often leads to blind faith which obviously is dangerous. The roman catholic church actively participated in wars, and it wasn't defence either it was offense. quite sad.

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