Evolution or Creationism


  

166 members have voted

  1. 1. Evolution or Creationism

    • Evolution
      109
    • Creationism
      57


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Of course it was evolution.... they have discovered the remains of creatures to represent virtually every step in man's development... it seems only natural that when humans reproduce, the new build has small improvements over the old build to better cope with the world around them.

I find the whole idea of some kind of deity ludicrous. Religion was created by early societies as a way of explaining what they didn't understand and to create some kind of social order.... we do not need that now.

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damn.

OK. So you can air your views. We all do that. But don't start ripping the intestines and stomach acid out of religion and people with different views to you. This applies for both creationists and evolutionists.

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SimonHi,

I agree with you, but the "improvements" you speak of are more like slight mutations, some good some bad. The good survive and the bad do not. Survival of the fittest. It doesn't work that fast, but if a baby is someday born with an immunity to cancer, and then spreads that gene, in time all humans will be immune, those who weren't would be dead.

To everyone,

Where did dinosaurs come from? Is there any talk of those in the Bible? There could be, I don't know, but I don't think so. God created man and all the things around him. By the time man existed dinosaurs were long gone. The existence of dinosaurs in proven, we have all those bones in the museums and all. My point is, that if God didn't create dinosaurs, where did they come from? This suggests that life can begin without some devine creation. If God did create dinosaurs, why do they no longer exist? Did God kill them all off? Was it a failed attempt at creation? How could that be, God is infalable, right? If life began on its own accord once, why not again? All the buildeing blocks are there.

Anyway, I was just curious as I have never heard a religious explanation for dinosaurs. If there is one, please educate me.

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Originally posted by aco

Evolution:

A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form.

Where did that original something come from? I don't know and neither does anyone else. The question which you have posed transcends anyone on this earth's understanding.

Since something has to be created for evolution to exist, I'd rather believe in creationism.

(i stopped reading at this post so sorry if it seems out of context)

That is a typical mistake of any human to make. "It must have started somewhere" but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't have to have. Using blue and red shift scientists have proved that all objects in the universe are travelling away from each other, but are slowing down. This is suspected to be from the big bang, where all objects flew outwards from the centre. Their combined gravitational fileds is now making them slow down and it is thought that one day they will all start to pull in again, possibly causing another collision. This would also cause another explosion as so many different types of matter collided together, which could have been from where "our" big bang came from.

"Ours" may have not been the first, it may be an infinite process whereby matter explodes, slows down, collides again and the process is repeated. The human brain just cannot the contemplate the ideas infinity or nothingness. Ask someone to think of nothing, they will think of black, as them to think of an infinite string of something, it will always have an end.

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Knoxca

"Evolution is a FACT to anyone who understands it. "

Interesting , the dangers of saying theory is fact.

"Facts of old"

1. The Earth is flat

2. The Sun and all other planets revolve around the Earth

3. Heavier than Air machines will never fly

4. The Sound Barrier will never be broken

Theories are just that, theories. They are based on the knowledge NOW .

Einstein claims light speed travel is impossible . Sound familiar.

Creation or evolution ? is it really that clear cut?

The reason we develop is we dont accept facts as absolute, if we did , the Earth would still be flat , being orbited by Millions of planets , the sky would be for the Birds without those F16's creating those sonic booms.

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Originally posted by Nick_Jones

(i stopped reading at this post so sorry if it seems out of context)

That is a typical mistake of any human to make. "It must have started somewhere" but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't have to have. Using blue and red shift scientists have proved that all objects in the universe are travelling away from each other, but are slowing down. This is suspected to be from the big bang, where all objects flew outwards from the centre. Their combined gravitational fileds is now making them slow down and it is thought that one day they will all start to pull in again, possibly causing another collision. This would also cause another explosion as so many different types of matter collided together, which could have been from where "our" big bang came from.

"Ours" may have not been the first, it may be an infinite process whereby matter explodes, slows down, collides again and the process is repeated. The human brain just cannot the contemplate the ideas infinity or nothingness. Ask someone to think of nothing, they will think of black, as them to think of an infinite string of something, it will always have an end.

I must admit that I wasn't aware of that, but you still can't explain why the big bang happened?

...This is suspected to be from the big bang, where all objects flew outwards from the centre...

From the centre of what? Science can't explain alot of things, and this is one of them.

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Thats exactly my point, there was no point when the series of Big Bangs first started, they could've been going forever, but the human brain cannot comtemplate this.

EDIT: And yes i agree i dont know from the centre of what, maybe thats a secret we will only learn when it is too late, perhaps like all the worlds before us.

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The concept of a Supreme Creator of the universe has been something, which the western world has been trying to prove or refute now for thousands of years. However, only in the past 200 years have the creme de la creme of western intellectuals, come to the conclusion that a God/Creator of the universe is and has been a figment of mans imagination. This conclusion was formed as a reaction to the beliefs and practices of Christianity, which was a major force in European life at this time. Beliefs such as that of the Trinity and the divine nature of Jesus Christ, were so complicated to understand - even for the elite of the church - that eventually the idea of a supreme and perfect creator (which Christianity had distorted) was replaced by many new theories which tried to explain how mankind came about and developed. Many different theories were introduced to the western world, but one common trait, which they all shared, was that there was no Supreme force, which governed the universe.

So where does Islam come into all of this? Islam is the one way of life, the one religion which until now has not been challenged successfully by any philosopher, atheist or intellectual. Rather the case has been the exact opposite and there have been thousands, if not millions, of so-called 'atheists' who have reverted back to Islam. So how does Islam explain the existence of this Supreme Creator?

The Natural Way

continued...

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The Natural Way

Allaah says in his final revelation, the Qur'aan:

"Therefore turn your face steadfastly towards the true faith, away from all that which is false, in accordance with the Pure nature with which Allaah has Created people. Let there be no altering in the laws of Allaah's Creation. This is surely the true religion, but most people do not know it."

(Surah Ar-Rum 30:30)

The pure nature which is mentioned in this verse is probably the most convincing proof of a divine creator to any sincere seeker of truth. Which person can deny (atheist or otherwise) that when he/she is in dire trouble, when life is about to be taken away from them, when the pressures are unbearable - that then do they turn to that force above the skies. How many times are we confronted by a scenario in which the words: "Please God help me, and I promise that Iwill always pray to you and be good." roll off our tongues with such sincerity? Every time something bad happens, words such as these come out of the people's mouths. Yet as soon as the harm is removed the very same people beseeching the help of their creator, turn away:

"And whatever of blessings and good things you have, it is from Allah. Then, when harm touches you, unto him you cry aloud for help. Yet no sooner does he remove your ills then some of you set up partners to their lord."

(Surah An-Nahl 16:53-54)

This pure nature which every human is born with is known as the Fitrah in the Arabic language. Every human being, man or woman is born with this natural instinct to recognise the Creator and turn to Him. This is proved by the hadeeth of the last messenger to mankind Muhammed (s.a.w.) who said: "Every child is born upon the pure fitra, it is only his parents that later turn him into a Jew, a Christian, or a Magian.

In fact if humans were not influenced by their societal pressures then their belief in the Creator would be distinct and clearly visible. But unfortunately this is not the case, and there exists in all non-Muslim societies a clear trend to distort the nature of human beings. One of the ways in which this is done in western societies is through the education system and its institutions. Western education is based around a whole body of secular thought which has no place for a Creator. In science lessons kids are taught that we are the ancestors of monkeys and apes and that this implies that we came about by pure chance.[8] In subjects such as psychology and sociology we are taught that religion is a tool of the privileged few who oppress the downtrodden majority. This form of education has also unfortunately influenced the Muslims, and we find it very common nowadays to see the likes of the 'Abdullaah's' and the 'Fatima's' of western society proclaiming that they do not believe in God.

continued...

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The Beauty of creation

Allaah says in the Qur'aan:

"Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, in the alternation of night and day, in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of the people, in the water which Allaah sends down from the skies reviving with it the dead earth and dispersing over it all kinds of beasts, in the change of the winds, and in the clouds that run their appointed courses between heaven and earth: In all of this, indeed there are signs for people of understanding."

(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:164)

SubhaanAllaah! How beautiful and accurate this verse is. Is it not true that when we look at the world around us we see such beauty and craftsmanship. Surely such excellence could not have come about by chance. Everything in this world and universe runs on a set course and pattern, so how is it possible then, that by pure chance everything in this universe was created with such skill and precision?

The wonders of nature are absolutely astounding, the wind, the rain, the hail and the snow were all products of chance, then why is it that mankind, with all his technological know how, cannot even divert the softest of breezes which blows through the trees in summer? The answer is obvious. All these natural elements are aspects of Allaah's Creation and he alone can control and manipulate them as he wills.

In fact the Creation of Allaah is so perfect that even if we try to detect a fault in it, then we will not succeed:

"Blessed be He to Whom all sovereignty belongs; He has power over all things. He Who Created death and life that He may test which of you is best in deed. He is the Almighty, the Oft-forgiving. He Who Created the seven heavens one above another. You can see no fault in the Creation of the Bestower of Mercy. Turn up your eyes: Can you detect a single flaw? Look once more, and yet again: Your sight will in the end grow humbled and weary."

(Surah Al-Mulk 67:1-4)

It is not just the seas, the mountains, the rivers and the skies which are a proof for the existence of our Creator, but also ourselves. Allaah says in the Qur'aan:

"On the earth are signs visible to all who have faith with certainty, just as there are signs within your ownselves. Will you then not see?"

(Surah Adh-Dhariyat 51:20-21)

The variety of humanity is indeed amazing, black and white, tall and short, fat and thin, good and evil, man and woman etc. etc. How many times have we considered the complex makeup of our bodies both physical and mental and found it to be completely beyond belief. It is known that if the intestines of a human being were taken out of the body, they would be so long that they could cover the entire area of a tennis court!

But when we think about these long intestines being inside of us, it astounds and amazes us. The human brain is thought to be more powerful that any mainframe computer on earth, whilst the eye is said to be more complex and structured then any telescope invented by man. The human mind is something which is still undiscovered by psychologists and psychiatrists, and the nature of our dreams and thoughts is something which these people will probably never unravel. So we should ask ourselves, is it still possible for such a complex being such as ourselves, to be a mere product of chance, or rather, are we products of a supreme and skillful creator, who has shown us that he really is Al-Khaliq?

Yet despite our complicated and intricate makeup, our comparison to the Creator is not even possible. Mankind with his level of technology has gained the impression that he is the most supreme being in this universe. Yet when we look at examples of western society we see that these same humans who claim such superiority, cannot even maintain basic standards of hygiene! Washing the body-parts after urinating or excreting has almost become a sin for many people in the west, yet at the same time these people are the very same who claim technological advancement! Maybe if they believed in a Creator, the basics of life would perchance return to them, just as they have returned to the Muslims.

The proofs for the existence of a creator are so numerous that it would take us a very long time to go through every single one. So finally we should remember, that the creation of humanity was neither an accident, nor a development from monkey to man. Rather it was the creation of Allah the Most High, the Most Perfect, who reminds us of the stupidity of those who claim that He did not create us:

"Were they created of nothing? or were they perchance, their own creators? or did they create the heavens and the earth? surely they have no firm belief."

(Surah At-Tur 52:35-36)

continued.....

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Those who dont believe that the Quraan is the final message from GOD..then the Quraan CHALLENGES YOU.... to produce something like it...Call your helpers (Poets, Gramerians,Scientists,whoever) you will not be able to to it....

It was tried before BUT no-one has been successful.

Those who claim falsehood in the quraan.....

BRING YOUR PROOF (you will most probably try to bring scientific proof) bring it...

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One Question:

Why has the Quraan been so EXACT and PRECISE with all it has to say: from Science, biology, embryology, mathematics, austrology, EVERY aspect of life.

We have proof - DO YOU.

:-)

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"I must admit that I wasn't aware of that, but you still can't explain why the big bang happened?"

Fifteen billion years ago, give or take five billion years, the entirety of our universe was compressed into the confines of an atomic nucleus. Known as a singularity, this is the moment before creation when space and time did not exist. According to the prevailing cosmological models that explain our universe, an ineffable explosion, trillions of degrees in temperature on any measurement scale, that was infinitely dense, created not only fundamental subatomic particles and thus matter and energy but space and time itself.

Does that help?

"From the centre of what? Science can't explain alot of things, and this is one of them."

From the center of the universe... A place where the universe began would have to exist, making it the center...

Very brilliant people who have devoted their lives to science have come up with these theories... But it doesn't matter to a lot of people... long ago we went as far as to burn these people alive, giving them unfair trials, and branding them heretics for their beliefs of the earth, the planets, the sun, and other things in our universe... Since the begining of human civilization, people practicing religion have kept many truths from people when it comes to the universe, going as far as to murder people in the name of their God... Fortunately, murder is illegal for anyone now, but religious people have not changed too much... Still, they try to distort reality with fantasy, and still they are attempting to bring this world back a couple hundred years.

Man has created many destructive things in the time we have been on this planet, and one of those destructive things was religion. It's obvious religion does not kill people, but it is a human creation, practiced by humans, misused by humans, and kept alive by humans. Religion is like a gun... obviously you can't blame a gun for killing someone, let alone religion... but without them, I'd be willing to bet murder statistics would start to go down. What you are suggesting is that rather than blame religion, blame people who practice religion. That is certainly more logical... But if religion did not exist in the first place, no one would be to blame for any destruction caused by practicing it.

But I do agree... Blame the people who practice religion, and the people who created it... Not the religion itself. It's not the religion's fault that it had destructive creators who created something as imperfect, and illogical as itself. Religion is simply a tool of destruction... I mean, do we blame a nuclear bomb when it falls upon us? Nah... We usually blame the country who sent it falling upon us in the first place.

Most of religion will not survive in the next few thousand years... There's really nothing we can do to stop people from practicing it... All we can do is wait for morals to change, society to change, and people to change... And it WILL happen, and hopefully, our children's children's children's children's children's children's children's, (and so on) Children will live in a better world that is not run by religious people, but run by scientific people, where humans are cloned, and where humans can correct problems in an embryo before a baby is even born.

Eventually, it will lead to controlling our own evollution, which will play a key role in us exploring the universe, and eventually it will lead to several different species of humans living on this planet, peacefully. Racism will have been long forgotten, and we will all get along with eachother without the things in today's primitive society holding people back from peace, love, and happiness.

This will be our future. Believe it or not, it is coming. No religion will stand in the way of our own self-controlled evollution (or should I say self-induced?), cloning, correcting problems in ourselves before we are born, and a lot more. It will be the result of both the power of evollution, and change. More powerful than something as primitive as religion.

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What, you are saying that religion is the root of all evil? Well then please tell me why Salt Lake City has one of the lowest crime rates in the world?

You may be able to talk the talk, but can you walk the walk?

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No, I am not saying religion is the root of all evil. I specificially said to not blame religion. The root of all evil is uneducated, brainwashed people who cannot think logically... Get it?

Salt Lake City is but one city, not the whole world. It is purely coincidental that crime rates are low there... You can't expect anyone to believe that their religion keeps them from commiting crime, that's just ridiculous. Look at Osama Bin Laden who claims to practice Islam... He commits crimes against humanity, yet has no remorse, and no concept of concenquences.

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Originally posted by icie

...Well then please tell me why Salt Lake City has one of the lowest crime rates in the world?...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there riots just after the closing ceremony. :D

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affirmative. But correct me if I am wrong, but riots usually happen that involve fans from OTHER places? I can tell you that this happens in many big events, such as globalisation meetings and soccer matches. You cannot blame the doings of other people on the local inhabitants.

sOma: many secular Muslims might consider that comment to be offensive. Indeed, very little people (except the radicals) consider Osama to be a true Muslim.

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Why would it be offensive? I made that comment knowing that islam is a peaceful religion in which murder is supposed to be wrong. I made an example of one person who disregards the "rules" or "morals" set by his own religion, therefore it could happen in any religion, and it does, and it has.

Why is it such an insult to call Osama a muslim? He claims to be one, does he not? You can't tell someone what they are or what they aren't... If that is what he chooses to be, then that is what he is. You don't need to act a certain way, or do a certain thing to call yourself a Christian, or a Muslim, or anything else...

There are some devoted religous people who go to Church every sunday, yet they go home and abuse their wives and children, and make their lives a living hell... yet they are still considered religous... Even some of the most religous people in the world have done things that go against their religion... take a look at catholic priests who have been allowed to molest children over, and over again, yet they are still considered catholic by the bishop. And no matter how sick and twisted that is, among other sick and twisted things religious people can do, and have done, you cannot tell someone what group they are and aren't apart of when they have already made a decision to be a part of that group. You can kick them out of a church, but you can't kick them out of a religion... that's impossible.

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My only question is--If Creationism is how it all went down, which version of the story? Each religion has their own god, their own creation story, their own...

Which one's right?

Of course you'll say yours is right, because otherwise why would you believe it?

But who is to say your story is the right one?

Who's to say you aren't believing in the wrong god?

I'm not even going to get into my beliefs, just ask yourself those questions.

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Great point, kbs! :) ... One thing that seems to really frustrate religious people is logic, because their entire religion is based on fantasy without any logic... That probably explains why this debate is getting slow now, because of the many intelligent people who have posted logical explanations. It's too bad that we have to believe in such mystical beings to make our lives better... if it's not God, it's santa clause, if it's not santa clause, it's the easter bunny, and if it's not the easter bunny, it's the tooth fairy... Look at all the illogical lies we tell our children, and have them believe until a certain age, then break their hearts in two by telling them there's no such thing... Unfortunately, the breaking of the hearts is something that is unavoidable when people have been brainwashed, and lied to all of their lives.

It is only natural for them to deny logical explanations... We did the same things as children when another child told us there was no santa clause... we denied it, and thought the other kids were crazy, and would be missing out on a lot... Children are raised on lies, but when they reach a certain age, they are not allowed to believe in certain lies anymore... If no one had ever told their children that Santa Clause was fake, many adults today would still believe in the fictional character... just as adults believe in god today.

Religous adults are much like children who believe in santa clause... There is hardly any difference.

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