3nd3r Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 I beleive there is a higher "entity" out there and that we all came from it. I believe that we were all 1 being at one time and that we split apart and when we die we go back to the "entity" "call it GOD if u want" and the entity becomes stronger because of all of the vast knowledge that is brought to it. I could be wrong but that is what i believe. my 1 1/2 cents :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadzombie Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Why is it so improbable that evolution is a tool used by the creator? Why is it so wrong that when God created the universe, a Big Bang occured? So much of Judeo-Christian belief originated from Sumerian mythos. Sumer was not only one of the earliest massive human civilizations we can account for, they were the first we know of to have in place a complex math system (based on factors of 6...which is extremly smart for reasons we don't need to go into), accurate astronomy, agricultural irrigation, complex art, music...and the first known system of writing. (I'm sure everyone has heard of Giglamesh? Parallel that to the story of Adam in the Garden of Eden...) Their creation mythos, from which the stories in Genesis are derived, center around the formation of the solar system by Aspu/ Enki (the first one). To the people of Sumer, creation was intertwined with both science and the unknown. It is often seen from what we have found of those early people that every 'God' had a physical representation whether it be planet or Coment. All except Enki, who was greater and more mysterious than all other Gods. It is known that the Hebrew peoples, who arose from within Sumer, adapted their creation mythos from the ancient Sumerians. Did the Sumerians understand the limits of their own knowledge? Do we have something to learn from the symbolism of Enki as the first one, the unknown one? And the relation between Yaweh (whom we Christians later refer to as God) and Enki, does that hold meaning into the true nature of an infinite, unknown first one? I guess my point is this; there is so much more to both sides of this argument than many people realize. Christianity has its roots from so many places, many Christians will never accept that. They believe it undermines the integrity of faith. The first humans to use science that we know of intertwined it with religion, knowing that their are things that cannot yet be explained, things that will perhaps remain unknown forever. BTW; this is a fun thread...there are so many aspects to this on both sides that its very fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 So the big bang theory created the universe. What caused the big bang to start? Something cannot come into being from nothing...thats basic science. In the last 35 years scientists have discovered that the big bang was in fact not some chaotic, primordial event, but rather a highly ordered event that required an enormous amount of information. In fact, from the very moment of its inception, the universe had to be fine-tuned to an incomprehensible precision for the existing of life like ourselves. And that points in a very compelling way toward the existance of an Intelligent Designer. Yes most of science does agree the big bang theory occured, but most of science also knows that something cannot come into being from nothing...and the support of an Intelligent Designer is gaining Stephen Hawking calculated that if the rate of the universe's expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have collapsed into a fireball. P.C.W. Davies, a British physicist concluded that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for the formation of starts, a necessity for planets and life, is one followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeroes. He also estimated taht if the strength of gravity or of the weak force were changed by only one part in a ten fellowed by a hundred zeroes, life could never have developed. Also, there are about 50 constants and quantities, for example the amount of usable energy in the universe, the difference in mass between protons and neutrons, the ratios of the fundamental forces of nature, and the proportion of matter to antimatter, that must be balanced to a mathematically infinitesimal degree for any life to be possible. The precision is so utterly fantastic, so mathematically breathtaking, that is just plain silly to think it couldhave been an accident. Especially since we're not just talking about the simple odds but what theorists call 'specified probablility,' which rules out any change beyond a reasonable doubt. Patrick Glynn, the Associate Director and Scholar-in-Resident at the George Washington U. Institute for Communitarian Policy Studies, abandoned atheism and became a Christian largely because of those probablilities above. He wrote "God: The Evidence" and in it he says this..."Ironically, the picture of the universe bequeathed to us by the most advanced 20th century science is closer in spirit to the vision presented in the Book of Genesis than anything offered by science since Copernicus." Did God cause the big bang theory? I certainly don't know. He COULD have caused it to happen, and thats where Genesis 1 comes in. I would doubt it, but i don't know. I will probably not know until I see Him in heaven, but it is fun to speculate sometimes. The bible isn't just a collection of stories from an ancient time. The bible is a timeless book. What it talked about then, you can so easily apply it to today. It is factually perfect...no errors (outside of translation iffys)...and doesn't contradict itself. But thats a whole other can of worms, and off the subject at hand. Sorry another long post...much info i need to get out!!! I'm gonna burst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadzombie Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 one more thing; How many other Christians know that Eve was not the first woman? If you carefully read Genesis, God created other people before creating Eve, including other women. This was a common belief amongst Jews before the time of Christ, during the time of Christ, and is still held by many Jews today. Boy, I bet that blows a few years of Sunday school right there! Imagine that. There are people so entrenched in what they are told as opposed to learning the history of their beliefs that they just 'wander about' never knowing the origins of what they believe. And to think, even after learning these things, I am stronger in my faith as a believer in Christ than ever. It's an amazing faith, especially when one understands where it's beliefs come from and what they are for. Superfula; I 100% agree with you! I have mentioned these very same items you are posting earlier in the thread! Good call... (I'm just getting emails from so very funny peeps right now..thought I'd post to explain...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg77 Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 I am not saying that the people who wrote the Bible were liers or out to decieve anyone. Nor am I saying that it is not possible that the stories in the Bible are true, either in part or as a whole. All I am saying is that those who wrote the Bible lived in a very different time. A time of oppression and hopelessness. All I ask is that the Bible be treated as what it really is. A book of stories that provide a system of ideals that could, and did, unite so many people under common goals and beliefs. The Bible very well could have saved the human race from anialating itself 2000 year ago, and there is no shame at all in that. But to assume that the Bible is exactly what it claims to be based on nothing more than those very claims it itself makes would be reckless. I am not against religion, only those who would choose to follow it blindly and hold the Bible as both the truth and proof to the existence of God based on nothing more than the very existance of that very Bible. Its good to hear that your not against religion. People do follow blindly into certain beliefs and ideals such as facism and nazism. For example, Hitler portrayed that the Airean race was vastly superior to any other in the 1930's and 1940's which led to the second world war. We still live in a time and a world of oppression and hopelessness but with different methods in acheiving that oppression and hopelessness. The Bible is a book of knowledge spoken through the word of God. They didn't have computers to store all the information that God had given them so they had to write them down into one book. So, the stories may have been manipulated a bit as the centuries wore on but the plot of God's knowledge still remains the same. The same could be said about scientific knowledge that it has been manipulated and retested to get the right results through experimentation. This method can be of great value to the religious community but if done in the right way that athiests and religious people can agree upon. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessterw Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Very interesting topic to say the least, and one I'm surprised didn't spawn more flames. However I think, in regards to the poll, a choice has been left out.. and that is the growing popularity in the belief that both evolution and creation are true. I believe in God or a higher power if you will, and I believe in a heaven and hell of sorts. I have studied all forms of religion and philosophy and have learned that there is little difference in the core teachings of any of them. I believe that the Bible (in part or as a whole) is based on fact but is largely comprised of metaphors and such, and should be interpreted more in a figurative sense than a literal one. It was written by those who's knowledge of the world around us was not what our's is today, and as such they explained things in the best way they could, but possibly not the most accurate or correct ways. With these beliefs I have often attempted to fit many scriptural events and beliefs into those of the scientific world, and in-turn the world around us. Every time I have either come away with more questions or with several answered, but always with a conclusion that the world of religion and that of science fit perfectly. Part of this is remembering that religion (and even philosophy) is figurative and based on feelings and emotion, while science is based largely on fact, but facts that are not always correct and that have been proven wrong (which of course makes them not facts). The scientific community is constantly making new discoveries and adjusting its understanding of different events and such. I have always believed that knowledge is never ending and ever changing. With that said I believe that evolution exists (that is a fact that has been proven) and that there was a creation event started by God (or whatever you want to call him/it/whatever). Both the Big Bang and creation by God force our minds to think in ways were are not used to, in such that we have to realize that there was nothing before either, and that nothing was infinite and has lasted an eternity. My belief is that God set in motion creation by means of natural events, possibly the Big Bang being one of them. Many say that the possibility of the Big Bang occuring and then life evolving as it has would be astronomical in chance, but that chance is all anything has ever needed. Life is based on chance and circumstance. If you simply think about the events that had to occur for your life to have been created, they reach back to the beggining of time. I often find it funny how Christians (or any other deity based religion) and Atheists (etc.) regard each other and each other's beliefs. Christians believe in a God that is not seen nor heard (well except by those lucky few) and they take their beliefs on faith, but yet can't believe in alien life-forms, evolution, ghosts, etc. And the same goes for scientists and such that can believe in gravity, the Big Bang, etc. but not in a higher power of some sorts (even a life force), or in things of the religious sort. Most religions are based on faith, and are created as a way to explain things that we couldn't otherwise and to give us a sense of purpose and of something to work for. In addition a large number of religions were created as a protest against something, such as another religion (think Protestant vs. Catholic). Sometimes they are even created or developed such that they are used to control a group of people and exert the will of the leaders of that religion (think of the old Catholic church and the many "cults"). Science is based on fact, or supposed facts in an attempt to rationalize things or explain them in specific terms that are not based on faith, but rather physical evidence. These look like opposing views, but they don't have to be, and are increasingly not. Science itself has proven many Biblical events factual... even to the point where many are certain (factually so) that Jesus existed (now whether or not he was what Christians believe he was is up to each of us personally, as science may never prove/disprove that one), among other things. There are also many facts/beliefs that we hold true today that would have been laughed at centuries ago, even decades ago. How can we ever say that something isn't possible? Can pigs fly? Not now but maybe someday they will due to some unforseen events that force them to evolve. Do living organisms evolve? Of course, its called adaptation and can occur at the smallest levels (think of the various forms of dogs and how they are suited to their environments) to large scale changes (Bill Gates anyone? nerd to billionaire... j/k... seriously, think of the changes horses have gone through over time, they once were the size of dogs!). Is there a God? Why not, there are humans. Think of this, we exert a large amount of control over our world. We can easily destroy the lives of most if not all animals on this planet, and we are rapidly learning how to create life through biogenetics and DNS manipulation among other things (cloning being an end result). We are often said to be "playing God", so if we can "play God" why can't there be a God that has these powers built-in so to speak? Was there a Big Bang or a creation event caused by God? We may never know if God was the cause (factually I mean), but couldn't the cause have been the same in that God could have created the Big Bang. We know that the 7 days thing was a figure of speach, just like the creation of woman using Adam's rib and such. So in fact the story of creation in the Bible largely follows the events of evolution. An example would be the order of events as God created the world, you know the heavens... the ocean.... the land. These follows many thoughts on the Big Bang and evolution, the Big Bang created the solar systems, stars, and planets... the life started in the sea (well kinda I guess)... etc. So in the end its not so hard to see that both beliefs can coexist, and indeed do. Now whether or not you want to believe in God or whatnot is another matter, but for those that do there shouldn't need to be any questions in regards to evolution or creation. Sorry if rambled... I am actually writting a book on some of this stuff in addition to my other beliefs and general BS... titled "WCTOANSFI". I'll give you... err... well... nothing if you can figure that one out. :ponder: Edit:I just went back and read through some of the other previous posts and I am sorry if I repeated the sentiments in them, I also saw how damn long my post was... lol, lots of rambling too... and here I go again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by deadzombie one more thing; How many other Christians know that Eve was not the first woman? If you carefully read Genesis, God created other people before creating Eve, including other women. This was a common belief amongst Jews before the time of Christ, during the time of Christ, and is still held by many Jews today. Boy, I bet that blows a few years of Sunday school right there! Superfula; I 100% agree with you! I have mentioned these very same items you are posting earlier in the thread! Good call... (I'm just getting emails from so very funny peeps right now..thought I'd post to explain...) Thanks for the encouragement. Glad there are others around that have the same views. Yah i remember reading them...thought they flowed nicely with the rest of my post About God creating women before...ok I'll bite. What scripture reference are you using, and what commentary (or proof) are you using to infer this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sOma Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 I'm no scientist... And I don't have all the answers... I'm just an 18-year-old with a high school education who has a fascination with science... But no one really has all of the answers, even the best of the scientists. And it would be a little much to ask a scientist to prove the mystery of life... Especially at this particular age, and year, and position in scientific discoveries... we are really quite primitive compared to what we could be, and what we could be exists within our imaginations... it exists through movies, through books... Many things that were science fiction in history eventually became a reality... And imagination is an important thing... Albert Eistein once said: "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." You describe the universe as a jigsaw puzzle... but that's too easy... I think it is more comparable to a painting... Any artist will tell you that a painting is never finished... We will never be able to explain everything... And it is impossible to ever be able to present any facts about how the universe was created... The universe is too large... As I said... everything has a scientific explanation... but we will not always know the scientific explanation behind everything... and we are not always capable of understanding a scientific explanation. Scientific research will never be finished... We will discover new things that will require more research... it will be a never ending process. This is only the begining... Science will change, as will technology. This is only the digital age... Imagine what we will have accomplished in a couple thousand years... Unfortunately, we won't be around to see it... at least not as the people we are today. Sometimes, I feel like I was born a millinnenium too early... But anyway... I am tired, and have a terrible migrane headache... So I am going to get a few hours of sleep, and I will continue where I left off here when I return. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessterw Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by deadzombie one more thing; How many other Christians know that Eve was not the first woman? If you carefully read Genesis, God created other people before creating Eve, including other women. This was a common belief amongst Jews before the time of Christ, during the time of Christ, and is still held by many Jews today. Boy, I bet that blows a few years of Sunday school right there! Imagine that. There are people so entrenched in what they are told as opposed to learning the history of their beliefs that they just 'wander about' never knowing the origins of what they believe. Yeah I have to agree, that is one of the best points I've ever heard or made. There are so many Christians (and others) that have never even read the Bible, but rather only listened to what their church or parents told them. Another additional point to add is that many religions/churches have purposely kept their followers "in the dark" in regards to some things. An example would be the Catholic church's practive of having Bibles written in only Latin, at a time when most people couldn't read, much less comprehend Latin. This was along time ago (well not really as the practive was still active in the early to mid 1900's, but at least the Bible was available in English by then), and I am not criticising the Catholic church (although I can if you want.. j/k :p ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 quoting jesterzwild "We know that the 7 days thing was a figure of speach, just like the creation of woman using Adam's rib and such. So in fact the story of creation in the Bible largely follows the events of evolution. An example would be the order of events as God created the world, you know the heavens... the ocean.... the land. These follows many thoughts on the Big Bang and evolution, the Big Bang created the solar systems, stars, and planets... the life started in the sea (well kinda I guess)... etc." ============================================== So you have proven that God didn't create the universe in 7 days? Wow! You are the first. And you have proven that God didn't create Eve from Adam's rib? Let me guess....you were hiding in the bushes behind Adam when it happened. These two events cannot be proven nor disproven. Some will never know.... Actually, the correct inference would be to say that the story of evolution follows creation in Genesis 1, since creationism did come around before evolution And to soma... I wasn't inferring a jigsaw puzzle or anything. You explained the current big bang theory, and i stated the current beliefs surrounding that theory. But it is like a puzzle...eventually, all the pieces will come together. At least with what i beleive, those that go to heaven will have the complete jigsaw puzzle...we will understand all these questions and answers that everyone has....those that don't will never finish it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 ...is it easier to believe that this big bang happened that created the universe....what went bang by the way? If there was no universe, no stars, no planets, no energy, no nothing, what went bang? All of the matter that ever existed and all that will ever exist. These two, are in fact, the very same amount. Where is it come from? The most dense matter ever concieved. I don't know what the % is, but all matter that exists on earth and in the planets is the very smallest % of actual matter, most all of it is empty space filled by subatomic forces that make things coherent. Where did this initial matter come from? Let me post a theory or two. Perhaps it came from another universe or another time. Space and time no longer follow "the rules" within a singularity. What if a universe collapsing in another universe creates a singularity and then pops out in our universe. Or perhaps it is the same universe that collapses and then explodes. We have seen the power of a single atom of matter and the energy it creates. An implosion caused by TNT split a single atom and realeased a tremendous amount of energy. Of course, I am talking about the atomic bomb. Imagine all the matter in the universe imploding upon itself, every atom splitting every other atom in an explosion of energy larger that anything imaginable. The matter and energy are thrusted away from the center of the explosion at tremendous speed, not spreading THROUGH the universe, but spreading the UNIVERSE itself. Continuing...so something went bang i guess...and it perfectly (at random) created the universe. Planets cooled...starts were in their place and we have the milky way galaxy. It just happened to be that every planet was put in perfect distance from each other and the sun. Each moon was put in perfect distance from each planet. Orbits somehow worked out nicely...etc...all by random chance. Its called equilibrium. All things want to reach a neutral state of least energy. Matter of different densities formed at different distances. That is why the density makeup of the planets in our solar system are in order of density. The sun in the most dense and Pluto is the least dence. In the case that Pluto is just an asteroid that fell into orbit, then Neptune is. And earth just happened to be at the exact right place to be able to contain life. A couple feet in any direction, and we aren't here. So earth cools and land and oceans form etc. now there is this primordial goo sitting around. It just happened to be at the right place on earth at the right time. The right amount of amino acids are formed and and whamo! we have a protein atom. Now according to theory, this has taken 400 million years. And all we have is ONE protein atom. Actually, yes, all by random chance. There are millions of planetary bodies out there. It stands to reason that atleast one will have the makings that turn out to be benefitial to life. Just because something has a million to one chance of happening doesn't mean that it will happen on the millionth atempt. It is just as likely to happen right off the bat as it is to happen on the millionth try. That is the very nature of statistical probability. Also notice how no other planets in our solar system can sustain life. The matter on earth, the matter that supports life, was drawn together by equilibrium. All of the matter on Earth works together. You also suggest that the universe formed perfectly. That it so far from the truth. There are asteroids and comets zooming around hitting things. It is only a matter of time before ANOTHER one hits us, remember the dinosaurs? There are thought to be dormant black holes at the center of every galaxy. Our planet will some day cool off and become ice or the atmosphere will disolve and all the water will go into space. The Sun will one day go dim, go supernova and devour the Earth. That is if the other galaxy that scientits see is careening towards us, which we are also careening towards, doesn't colide with us, enialating eachother. There are quasars or pulsars that emit so much radiation that if one floated by earth it would be irradiated. There are also black holes floating around space eating up everything in their path. And so many other things we don't even see. The universe is a violent unresting entity and the Earth's days are numbered. It is not a matter of if, but when? The universe is one big craps shoot and our luck will run out. You ask if it was luck and chance that brought us to existence. I say it sure was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadzombie Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Suprfula; As for the Genesis reference, let me refer to Genesis at the house later and I will post that for you. As for which came first, evolution/ creation? I've always thought they occured at the same time...God's hand guides the tool of evolution, acheiving the creation of man, animals and the like. About the Aspu/ Enki / El 'Elyon naming of the Sumerian God. Seems the people of Sumer used quite a few names to reference this almighty diety. El 'Elyon is Aspu & Enki, one God with 3 aspects. (and NO I'm not making ANY references to the Christian Trinity!This is Old Testamnet here...) My reference of Yaweh/ Enki is correct, but more commonly referred to in regards to Abraham swearing on the name of El 'Elyon "the Lord God most high", whom Moses later revels to be Yaweh. No I wasn't there, but the stories do hold up to scientific theory and fact when taken in their original context. It's just that perhaps centuries of mistranslation and chopping apart and Moms teaching Sunday school as if they were the original scribes of the Pentateuch has led to generations of peoples completly misunderstanding what is contained within the stories of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 The random chance theory isn't supported by any knowledgable scientist. But the creation of the universe was perfect. The earth (according to the theory) has lasted 14 billion years...give or take a couple million. Its still around. Life is still flourishing. All those black holes, quasars, etc haven't gotten to us. Thats the point. They aren't near enough to us now to cause any kind of problem for probably some millions of years. Like I said....if there was the slightest change in the way it supposedly happened, we wouldn't be here. Read the quotes by the schientists in one of my previous posts. Stephen Hawking agrees with the perfect universe...possibly one of the smartest men ever. Everything about how the universe came about is perfect. It was not a random event. That is a mathematic impossibility. Yes you may be right...someday the earth may get hit by a meteor...and someday the sun may quite giving off heat, but these twot hings are innaccessible to us and therefore there's no possible way to provide any evidence that this might be true. Its purely a concept, an idea, without scientific proof There are three scientific "rules" that your theory doesn't abide by 1) whatever begins to exist has a cause 2) the universe began to exist at some point 3)the universe has a cause... Something cannot come from nothing.... deadzombie...yeah..I was speaking on the theories of creation and evolution. Not the actual happenings. I was replying to someone else on the 7 day creation and eve coming from the rib, BUT....scientific theory doesn't disprove them at all...even in the original context. Did God creat the universe in 7 24 hour periods? I believe He did...but I don't know. Was Eve created from Adam's rib...yes I beleive she was. Can I prove these things? No...I wasn't around. Can anything disprove these things? nope. God isn't limited by science. Scientific theory cannot explain away God. He transcends science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 I still contest that the universe is not perfect. If it were, why would all planets not support life? As far as the Sun fading, thats a certainty. We have obseved it happen to countless other stars, many like our own. It will happen. As for things colliding with the Earth, the dinosaurs were whipped out by one such event. We have also had many close calls, cosmically anyway. Who knows how many times the universe tried to create itself? How many Big Bangs there were until things occured in such a way for our universe to come into existence. The biggest problem I have with yours and others arguments is that before anything else you label the universe as perfect and declare that God does exist. Only AFTER these presumptions are they used to defend the beliefs. They are self sustaining assumptions. A ask why the universe is the way it is, you say because it is perfect. Why do stars die and galaxies collide, because the universe is perfect and so must all things in it, no matter how negative things may seem to be. It can't be bad because it is perfect. By definition, something that is perfect cannot be wrong. It it the same with God's existence. Everyone here on that side of the discussion, before anything else, concedes God's existence. Since he exists, his words must also be true. Those words verify his existence. Unfortunately the entire argument is based on the unfounded and unprovable assumption that God exists. I don't put my trust in science because it refutes the existence of a higher power, but because it does not presume its existence before beginning to make its arguments. One cannot assume the outcome and then use that outcome to pave the way of truth to verifying the initial assumption. That, in itself, is a paradox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheif_Bigfoot Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by Borg77 But isn't it also true that physicists can't explain or can't find the most minute subatomic particles. Either that they are not there or just part of God's own creation. I believe that they are there but scientists don't have the technology to see them yet. You have to give science some credit since its gone from thinking the Earth is flat to what we have today. Since this is a realitively new discovery its needs to given some more time and reasources before science will be able to prove or disprove it. Just one more thing to say and this isn't really meant to be much of anything, just something to think about: How many of you have seen the movie Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Now I know that you are laughing right now but think about it for a second. We are getting close to being able to travel through time and say in a 500 years we know exactly what happened when the big bang occured, why couldn't we travel back in time and set it up this way. I know that this brings in all kinds of paradoxes and such but I just wanted to bring up the point that there are so many things to consider that its almost impossible to know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauf Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Dinosaurs existing millions of years ago is often used in the argument for evolution. However if creation is true, then shouldn't there be records of encounters with dinosaurs? Also, we are fascinated by dinosaurs because we don't see them anymore, but what about people who saw them ages ago. I'm sure they weren't thinking, "hey check out this cool dinosaur." Here's a link that talks about Dinosaurs (or Dragons as they were known) from Anglo-Saxon and other Records. It sounds as if dinosaurs were pests that people wanted to get rid of. If so, they did a pretty good job. The word "Dinosaur" wasn't invented till the 1800's anyway. http://www.ldolphin.org/cooper/ch10.html There is also evidence to support that there were more abundant oxygen levels in the atmosphere long ago, which might account for the dinosaurs large sizes, since reptiles are known to never stop growing. A few years ago scientists or anthropologists (i forget), got together to share findings about the Apatosaur. They said that this dinosaur wouldn't be able to survive with today's level of oxygen in the atmosphere, due to the dinosaur's size relative to his nostrils. What's my point? Well in Genesis 1:6-8 it says "And God said, 'Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.' So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse 'sky'. And there was evening and morning -- the second day." If there was a water canopy atmosphere layer above the rest of the atmosphere, it would have increased the oxygen pressure and probably blocked out most of the sun's harmful radiation. This would account for large dinosaurs whose possibly long necks and nostrils would have had enough oxygen to travel down their long necks to their hearts which would in turn pump blood back to their brains. It also helps to explain the extraordinarily long life spans of early people such as Adam (930 years), Methuselah (969 years), etc. found in Genesis 5. With greater oxygen and less radiation people today would live longer as well. During the flood God let the water canopy rain down in combination with the springs in the ground to flood the earth. This also fits with the sharp decline in life spans after the flood in Genesis 11:10. Quite possibly some dinosaurs might have never grown to the same size or been able to survive very well after the flood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3nd3r Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 damn dude, thats one way to think about it... Good Point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 We are getting close to being able to travel through time and say in a 500 years we know exactly what happened when the big bang occured, why couldn't we travel back in time and set it up this way. I hate to disagree, but I must. In an earlier post I mentioned that there were scientific theories that I hope were not true. Time travel is one of them. Growing up, and even now, there were two things I wanted to do mare than anything else travel through space, in such a way that I could explore many things within my lifetime, and time travel. While I believe that we will eventually travel faster than light(not physically faster, but through bending space and time) I think it is premature to say we are close to time travel, even in 500 years. And the current theories I don't believe allow for backwards time travel and if they did, I don't think it would be possible to go back further than the present at the time the temporal pathway or whatever was first created. I really don't know, niether does anyone else, but if we were to go back, what power do we have that could alter something as massive as what must have taken place. However, we could look at it this way. When we go back to witness the creation of the universe, we are sucked into the singularity before creation and it is our own biological matter that results in the existence of life in the first place. I better stop now, whenever I start thinking these sorts of things my mind starts to explode.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dashel Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 They aren't competing theories so how can you compare them (because one IS a theory and the other is NOT)? One is based on science, the other is based on dogma. Any questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thuggers Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 are you trying to tell me people can live say 800-850 years longer because of higher oxygen levels and less radiation? ****.... you should write infomercials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbs Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 Originally posted by superfula So the big bang theory created the universe. What caused the big bang to start? Something cannot come into being from nothing...thats basic science. Then where did goD come from? If something cannot come into being from nothing...and everything that is here had to come into being from something, that would mean so would goD. So, where'd he come from? That's what gets me, people who beleive in creationism always use the "oh just one day a big happened out of nowhere?" excuse, and frankly, I'd ask the same about goD. The other thing is, if goD created Adam and Eve. And if the whole world full of people came from these two people, why isn't everyone horribly inbred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
=NickJ= Posted February 25, 2002 Share Posted February 25, 2002 also Adam and Eve only had 2 Sons, sounds like some dodgy way to start a family if you ask me :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheif_Bigfoot Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Double J I'm not saying that we will alter what happened, but why, if we knew what happened, couldn't we go back in time and set it up in the first place. That is why I used the reference to Bill and Ted, they went and put the keys outside the jail and told themselves to duck when they knew that there dad was coming. Why couldn't we do the same type of thing and maybe our Great Great Great etc... Grandparents went back in time and caused the big bang. I don't believe that this is what happened but its just there are so many possibilities that to narrow it down to two seems inconceivable. kbs and Nick_Jones I think you both have some very good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Time travel isn't really the issue, but how would you suggest that we "set" the laws of physics. How would we create gravity to be what we want it? How would we set the intermolecular forces within an atom? Its one thing to understand the laws of phyics and it is another thing to set them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheif_Bigfoot Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 I'm not suggestting that we set the laws of anything. I'm just saying that if we eventually know what items were present at the time of the big bang and in what proportions, why couldn't we put all of those things in the exact same postion and then watch as they combine to form the bing bang. I would be similar (although much more complicated obviously) to baking a cake. We are able to put the ingredients in a pan and bake it at the right temperature to make a cake. Why not use the same principle to recreate the big bang. Another and most likely better example would be any kind of chemical that has been made in a lab that once only existed in nature. We were able to examine what causes it to form and then reproduce those conditions to make it in a lab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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