Jessterw Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Originally posted by kbs The other thing is, if goD created Adam and Eve. And if the whole world full of people came from these two people, why isn't everyone horribly inbred? Because God created others, not just Adam and Eve. Another thing you have to remember is that Adam and Eve were more than likely not actual people, but representations of many men and women, and their two sons might have been two nations or groups. This is the problem when people (both believers and not) take the text in the Bible literally. I mean we all obviously know that God didn't create everything in 7 days... unless those days were millions of years long. Think about it, I hope everyone didn't take George Orwell's Animal Farm literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaxoP Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 well what bothers me is how the bible can give them a name - and give them a name with such great confidence. Correct me if im wrong, but adam and eve had no way of speaking, no language, etc. the very first humans would have gawked at each other or something to get their message across. How can you tell me that thousands of generations later when language was used, they somehow knew the names of the first humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 A couple quick things... Adam and Eve had more than 2 sons. Its biblical. The thing is, we CANNOT prove creation didn't happen in the literal 7 days. Any attempt to is opinion. And third, I never said everything must have a cause (and if i did, i mistyped, because i know there were places that i didn't say that). I said whatever comes into being had to have a cause. The premise is that whatever begins to exist must have a cause. In other words, 'being' can't come from 'nonbeing'. Since God never began to exist, he doesn't require a cause. He never came into being. God is internal and uncaused. And fourth...by saying the universe is perfect, I don't mean every planet has life. I mean that everything works too well. The planets orbits aren't running into each other...moons are still here. Nothing has been destroyed by comets or black holes. Our universe not being created is much more probable than it actually happening. For this theory, right now, this is a scientific fact. But you can't prove the sun will die and you cannot prove the earth will freeze. Just because it happens on another place billions upon billions of miles away, doesn't mean you can assume it will happen here. There are starts that haven't faced this "ending certainty". Thats like saying because you see someone who is 70 years old die of a heart attack, you prove that all 70 year olds will die of a heart attacke. Its full of holes...there is no way to prove what has happened at other places will happen here And finally...I believe the bible to be literal in saying that there were TWO people in the beginning. No where can we assume these were tribes. Gen 1 doesn't even hint toward it. You guys are limiting God...which i guess would be normal for those of you who don't beleive. God is unlimitless. If He created the big bang to happen...and he designed the universe, in its emansity, you cannot limit God. To say "we can prove so and so" in creation is rediculous. I don't even claim to be able to prove it, and I believe it! As someone stated earlier, God could very well have placed the fossils of dinosours where they are, or placed other fossils where they are, and they possibility is they didn't exist. Do i think that....no. But for a limitless God, its totally feasable. But I don't expect all to beleive in the power of God...so please refrain from saying "we can prove this about creation" and "we know this about when God created the earth" because we don't know...and for you to say that would be you know more than everything scientist put together. Any scientist worth his salt would never say such a claim. People claim things because they don't think it happened... And in return, I won't go around ranting about how God is perfect, and how He is boundless. Unless of course someone else tries to be able to claim something about creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike11212 Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 I beleive adam and eve had 6 sons no girls then eve the ###### she was (kidding) slept with her sons and so on and well had more kids. Big bang . It's just a theory. But the big bang if true came from two atoms crashing into each other. Where did the atoms come from well Ask the atom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Chief_Bigfoot I'll make a deal with you. I'll invent the time machine and you go around and collect EVERY SINGLE LITTLE BIT OF MATTER AND ENERGY THAT EXISTS IN THE UNIVERSE. I guess the problem then will be, where do I stand when I make the time machine, what do I make the time machine out of and where do I get the energy to power it? I'm sure you understand the concept of the big bang, so I'm sure you realize that before it, all the matter that existed, the matter that makes up you and me and EVERYTHING, was about the size of an atom. You simply suggest we collect all this matter and reproduce the experiment? If we were to have a thousandth of all the matter in the universe in a volume 1000 times that of an atom, we would all be sucked into it by the tremendous gravitational forces. I get the concept, but it is impossible. superfula Again, all I can say is EQUILIBRIUM. There was a time when planets collided, but since we weren't there to call them planets, they weren't really planets I guess. However, massive bodies in space collide all the time. The Earth formed by many massive bodies colliding into one another. That is why the center of the Earth is molten. The friction from the collision superheated all the matter on Earth making in one huge ball of molten rock. This superheating is what led to the release of hydrogen and oxygen and its subsequent creation of the atmosphere and water in the form of superheated vapor. As the earth cooled down from the outside in, water presipitated. The Earth continues to cool down as we speak and it will forever. Eventually it WILL cool down to the point where water will freeze. It is a big ball with a heat source in the middle with everything around it insulating it, but not 100%. Heard of geothermal energy? Thats energy created by the heat of the Earth. If that energy is released, then it is no longer in the Earth. even through the crust, heat escapes that can never be replaced. Eventually the entire core of the Earth will cool down and the only heat will be provided by the sun. The Earth will become much like the moon, warm during the day and absolutley frigid at night. The atmosphere will help, but without the Earths internal heat, it will suffer from global hypothermia. Also, the Sun WILL eventually run out of fuel. And that we've witnessed it in other stars, some similar to the Earth's, DOES mean that it will eventually happen to the Sun. The Sun is just another star, no better no wore than every other star out there. Energy is not infinate and as long as the Sun keeps sharing its energy with us, it will run out someday. Sure there are stars that are still around, why wouldn't there be. A bigger star has more fuel and will last longer. The Sun is actually a small star. Not all stars were created simultaneously. A lot had a jump start on the Sun, and some still form today. Stars are living things, not sentient, but living and will eventually die. As far as asteroids and comets, were struck everyday by small fragments, as are all other planetary bodies. Ever see the moon? Those aren't zits, those are impact craters. Also, remember the dinosaurs? I never met one, it seems a big ol' comet came by and wiped them off the face of the Earth. It's only a matter of time till another one strolls on by. Black holes destroy everything they come in contact with. It hasn't happened to us, but they are out there and they are moving around. Will it ever happen? Who knows, but it is possible. Let me offer a parallel to back up my claim that just because something happens one way somewhere means it will also happen to a fundamentally simmilar thing somewhere else. If I touch my hot stove it burns me. If I were to touch your hot stove would it not also burn me? Even if mine is Kenmore and yours is Whirlpool. Even if mine is electric and yours is gas. Even if my stove is right here with me and your stove is on the moon. A stove is a stove, a star is a star and a cigar is just a cigar. In closing, you are right, just because someone dies of a heart attack at 70 DOESN'T mean that everyone will die from a heart attack at the age of 70. The fact still remains the we all WILL die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Adam and Eve had sons and daughters. I didn't clarify the daughters part earlier. Genesis 5:4 >>Let me offer a parallel to back up my claim that just because >>something happens one way somewhere means it will also >>happen to a fundamentally simmilar thing somewhere else. If I >>touch my hot stove it burns me. If I were to touch your hot >>stove would it not also burn me? Even if mine is Kenmore and >>yours is Whirlpool. Even if mine is electric and yours is gas. >>Even if my stove is right here with me and your stove is on the >>moon. A stove is a stove, a star is a star and a cigar is just a >>cigar. Thats a nice analogy and all, but science doesn't hold to analogies. My stove on the moon wouldn't burn you for lack of oxygen and of course electricity. My own attempt at one was very poor. You cannot apply the same theorem for everything that exists. The scientific community is very opposed to what you are proposing. Course they aren't the end-all and be-all, but they tend to know more on the topic than any of us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krome Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Evolution is real... Adam and Steve adopt children is also real... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 You got me on the oxygen thing, although your stove was gas in my analogy.:D Let me get this straight, because I had not heard this. You are saying that the scientific data gathered from observing, for instance, stars in the cosmos is not applied to our own star? There are many types of stars, but the fundamental ways a star works are the same. You are suggesting something that seems to completely defy the entire nature of science. What makes the star at the center of out solar system more special then the stars observed throughout our gallaxy? I'll look things up and forgive me if I am wrong, but your suggestion that scientists don't use the data they gather from observing stars, and even other phenomenon, throughout the galaxy to further the explanation of our star and local phenomenon seems absolutely ludacrous. All I can say then is that I am glad the proof does not exist to satisfy you, otherwise our planet would be frozen and we'd all be in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 A quick search on google and here is what I found. It is an Ohio State professor's (Richard W. Pogge) lecture given on 1997 June 12 at the Perkins Observatory in Delaware, Ohio, as part of the 1997 New Vistas in Astronomy lecture series. It can be found HERE. If you have an interest in science or astronomy give it a read. I found it very interesting. In fact I must revise something I said earlier. I implied that the larger the star the longer its life. It is in fact the opposite. The lecture discusses the life cycle of stars similar to our Sun and projects the life of our Sun. Don't worry though, our Sun still has 5 billion years to live in, more or less, its current state, although the changes it will start to go through will end surface life on Earth in 1.1 billion years and all life in 3.5 billion years. Oh well, it was nice knowing you all.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronoStriker1 Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Ok heres what I believe (I didnt have time to read all the posts so if its been said... whatever): I am Jewish (not overly religous tho) --> what ever religion you believe in could be right (in whole or in parts) --> every thing is open to interpretation --> I believe in evolution --> Jesus was a profit at most --> religions, there motivations and lessons, are twisted to fit the needs of those who can proffit from them, so religious texts may not convay the same meanings as they were origionally intended to --> All religion boils down to this: God = everywhere everywhere (as I know it) = universe Anthropic Principle of Cosmology: Life acts as the sensor by which the universe can observe, contimplate, and enjoy itself --> Univers specifically developed as it did so life could arise. It hit to of my points evolution and the universe having a conscience so it in it self is that being God... I still wonder tho... hmm... mabey its all just random events... could happen... I hate this thred... my head hurts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadzombie Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Superfula; A few things... 1.) Genesis 1: 26-28. This is the first, and far older creation story. Adam (wordplay in ancient Hebrew adam=man & adama=ground) & Eve (again wordplay isha=woman & ishasa=body of man) do not appear until the second creation story. Eden (located somewhere east of Mesopotamia, firmly within Sumer) is derived from the Sumerian word, eden, meaning "fertile plain". The second story is thought by Jewish Scholars to have been included some 3,000 years after the original, as a lesson in mans self destructive nature. 2.) Yahweh (" I Am") originally appears as the name of God in Exodus 3:14, during a long talk with Moses. In all current translations, Abraham refers to the name Yahweh several times throughout Genesis, yet this is clearly recognized to be alterations by to the original text by Jewish scribes some several thousand years after the original writings. Abraham (again a noted descendant of Ur, one of Sumers best known cities, Genesis 11:28), invokes the name of the "Lord, God Eternal"; El 'Elyon, the Sumerian God of creation, Genesis 21:33. It has been agreed for centuries that Abraham viewed El 'Elyon and the God we know as Yahweh to be the same. From Abraham's perspective, it was the Sumerian God El 'Elyon who promised his lineage would become a great nation, and whom Abraham praised in Genesis 14:19. Yahweh, Elohim, Elyon, Jehovah, God, Allah - all are names for the original Sumerian creator, El 'Elyon (whom the people of Sumer also called Aspu and Enki, depending what age and region of the Sumerian civilization one is looking at.) Not that this means anything other than most Christians would freak to know we worship a Sumerian diety. Look forward to your reply... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonHi Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 the first live was from chemical reactions under the sea around volcanic geysers.... it was very simple bacteria.... then evolution happened over many billions of years (can you imagine undreds of billions of years? ) And don't just bring in another bulshit religion, they are al l the same crap really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadzombie Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 And so many people say religion is crap... But I wonder, is it the religion that is crappy, or the idiot people that have no idea what the religion they follow is really about? It's funny, the more I researched my own religious beliefs and learned factual, historical lineage, actual translations and the origins for different periods change within my belief system, I discovered that nobody wanted to know what I had learned. Nobody cared to know why they believed what they believed, especially if it made them think. For awhile, I blamed the religion, but that wasn't right; it was the people, who as always, twist and turn things to their own selfish ways. The religion itself held true to whatever proofs I could throw at it. People do not. Seems to me science and religion have the same problems: people. People who corrupt the pureness of truth, who are too lazy too discover enlightenment. People who follow along like sheep, blinders on, looking for the easy fix and the easy way. May religion always be held up to science as a guide, may science always look to religion for its soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleJ Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Originally posted by deadzombie May religion always be held up to science as a guide, may science always look to religion for its soul. I kinda like that. I'm not really religious, but that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. It is also nice to see someone who seems very religions but is not a sheep.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChronoStriker1 Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Originally posted by deadzombie And so many people say religion is crap... But I wonder, is it the religion that is crappy, or the idiot people that have no idea what the religion they follow is really about? It's funny, the more I researched my own religious beliefs and learned factual, historical lineage, actual translations and the origins for different periods change within my belief system, I discovered that nobody wanted to know what I had learned. Nobody cared to know why they believed what they believed, especially if it made them think. For awhile, I blamed the religion, but that wasn't right; it was the people, who as always, twist and turn things to their own selfish ways. The religion itself held true to whatever proofs I could throw at it. People do not. Seems to me science and religion have the same problems: people. People who corrupt the pureness of truth, who are too lazy too discover enlightenment. People who follow along like sheep, blinders on, looking for the easy fix and the easy way. May religion always be held up to science as a guide, may science always look to religion for its soul. The ones who dont want to know the origions of these things are those who use it as a crutch and if there ideas change even slightlly will fall. I think that the people who want to know and are willing to change there ideas are the trully enlightened. This entire thred is that of the enlightened, because we are willing to here each other out without totally throwing out the ideas that suit us. ...wow that sounded kinda mistical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Good posts people. First, about the theory that life came from the oceans with some chemical reaction... once again, life cannot come into being from something that isn't alive. This has never been proven. Many have tried in labs and whatnot, but all have failed to prove this. This falacy does not exist in the science world anymore. If you know science....you know life cannot come from nothing. DoubleJ....i'll give that article a read tues or wed. School is kicking me right now deadzombie...i still haven't heard about the women before eve. A second creation story? Who believes this? Have any reliable sources? There was only one creation. In Genesis 1 it explains the broad creation...and in Gen 2, it goes back and gives more detail into the life of Adam and Eve. There's no difference...both are details of one creation And Yahweh appears first in Gen 2:4....not exodus. It is repeated several other times in Genesis as well. >>It has been agreed for centuries that Abraham viewed >>El 'Elyon and the God we know as Yahweh to be the same. >>From Abraham's perspective, it was the Sumerian God El 'Elyon >>who promised his lineage would become a great nation, and >>whom Abraham praised in Genesis 14:19 What exactly do you believe deadzombie? Or what church do you attend? These beliefs are only actually practiced by some cults that claim to be Christian. Again...posts some reliable references. I have never seen a commentary that claims there was two creations and Abraham worshiped a samarian god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agrumpyoldfart Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 I'm a sheep, and I have no complaints! I follow the Good Shepherd. In this world we're all manipulated by people and events far beyond our control, whether our pride lets us admit it or not. We're all sheep, it's just a question of our choice of shepherds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessterw Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 This has been a really good series of posts, while I don't agree with everything I've read, I think the majority have offered some well thought out points. To those who just post "your idea is stupid" or the similiar, maybe you need to figure out what you believe in and learn that bashing what others believe in actually undermines your own beliefs. Science is an attempt to factually explain the unknown and the things around us. Religion is an attempt to comfortably explain these same things in order to provide a sense of well being, something to work towards, and in some cases as way to control the a group of people. Both are human created concepts and beliefs, and as such both are subject to interpretation and flaws. Science may be based on facts (or theories), but those have also been proved incorrect time and time again as we discover more. Religion is based on the words and texts passed on through the generations and is subject to great interpretation through the eyes and ears of the reader/listener (take the many and significant differences in the texts of various Christian Bibles). In the end we will never have a complete hold on the truths of our creation (whether by a God or not), our world, and our lives. What we believe now may be proven wrong in years to come, or maybe some future generations may have such different lives and environments that ours may seem like folklore or such. Enjoy life and if you believe in something go out and research it, learn all you can about, because it is always good to believe in something... even if its only to give you a reason to work through things. But always remember to be respectful of others beliefs, such is a trait of a more intelligent person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbs Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Very well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomis_nehc Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Whoa! Amazing amount of posts in here! I have yet to finish reading everyone's posts, but already I wanted to say. WOW! There is a lot of useful information in this thread and I think it's great that people from all over the world... with all different set of mind, frame of reference, etc can all come together and talk about such controversial subject. And now, personally I believe in evolution... though I did believe in GOD and was once a devoted Christian. Keyword, once. There's simply too many questions that I have and Bible doesn't address. And to put simply, I am also the "materialist" type. Believe in what I can see, touch, etc... A little example: If GOD created the 1st Man, which is Adam, and Eve is the 1st woman... How the hell did they populate the world so quickly? Yes I do know back in Genesis, people live for a long time... but come on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest deadzombie Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 The 2 creation stories are Genesis 1 & 2, respectively. The 5 books of Moses can actually be divided into writer "J" and writer "P" according to when different stories were written. Stories written by writer "P" were added to the Bible almost 3,000 years after the original works. The original 5 books did not contain the story of Adam and Eve, which was written at a much later date and included after the original creation story in Genesis 1. The inclusion of Yahweh in Genesis anywhere prior to Gods conversation with Moses is not the original text; it was originally "I AM". However early Jewish scribes feared writing the true name of God, so they replaced earlier instances of Gods name "I AM" (I don't know the original Hebrew for that, I have heard it is very difficult to learn) with Yahweh. The only time God is actually named other than "I AM" he is abscribed Sumerian names. I believe in the Holy Catholic Church. I was raised protestant, turned my back on religion altogether, and was brought back to a belief in God by 2 years in the University of Houstons Physics department. Science and Quantum Theory introduced me to God. Instead of jumping back into standard Christian doctrine I explored and experienced many religions, before finally discovering the beauty of the Catholic Church. Damn near killed everyone I knew, and amazed me quite a bit myself. I had always been taught 'they' were the worst of the worst. Why would anyone want to listen to the Pope? Turns out, they've just had some of the worst smear campaigns. History reveals the truth... My belief that the ancient Sumerians recognized a singular, omnipotent creator in no way underscores the fact that I believe in the truths of the new and old testaments. Is it so far fetched that the Judeao-Christian God was recognized as the creator even before the time of Abraham? What would we expect Him to be called? God? That's a fairly modern term. Jehovah? That's a mispronunciation of the Jewish name Yahweh... I just know that as the Protestant movement tore away from the original Christian Church, they removed books from the original Bible. I know that as Bibles are translated, the people doing the translation have been somewhat influenced by culture, perspective and their varied beliefs throughout the ages. Even the Jews are divided as to what books make up their testament, as the Pharisees removed certain books that had been originally included (because they gave credance to the growing Christian movement and the belief that Jesus was the Christ). I've always tried my best to pursue the factual origins of my beliefs. Why not? Why have they changed throughout the ages? Why do so many Christians believe differently? Why are the Irish really killing each other? Why is the Jewish faith different than it was 2,000 years ago? 4,000 years ago? Other people may not care what they believe. I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessterw Posted February 26, 2002 Share Posted February 26, 2002 Originally posted by nomis_nehc ... If GOD created the 1st Man, which is Adam, and Eve is the 1st woman... How the hell did they populate the world so quickly? Yes I do know back in Genesis, people live for a long time... but come on... Just to offer my personal belief... I've always thought that the Bible as more of a book of stories (that may or may not be true, we won't get into that right now) that can often be very figurative and should not be taken literally. As such I've come to the conclusion (I may be wrong but no one except God himself could prove me so... interesting concept if you aren't a believer...) that Adam and Eve were more representative of men and woman that existed at the time than of two actual people. People did live long back then but that still doesn't explain the amount of people like you brought up. I believe that God set the events in motion (such as the Big Bang or whatever else) and may have helped guide the process along the way, not that he snapped his fingers and poof there was Adam and then later Eve. Of course this is just my interpretation of the Bible, and as such are biased and representative of my beliefs. Hey maybe I can come up with my own religion... call it... err... hmm... The Church of WCTOANSFI :ponder: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-fibRe Posted February 27, 2002 Author Share Posted February 27, 2002 ok what about this : What does Christianity mean to you? Or any other religion? Why do you follow your religion and what should man do in order to call himself a Christian/man from another religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessterw Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Well in simplest terms Christianity is the belief in Jesus Christ as the saviour, who died on the cross for the world's sins. To be a Christian one must accept Christ as their savour and live by the morals presented to them throught the Bible. Other religions differ depending on their origins, and some so-called religions (not so-called in that they are not valid) are actually more a philosophy than not. Religion in its most basic form is the gathering of like minded followers who choose to live by the rules or teachings of the religion. Most religions have some basis in fact (as in science) and are often an attempt to explain things in this world, and often are an attempt to provide followers with a way to deal with these things in a comfortable (relatively speaking) fashion. I as a person who beliefs in a higher power that I will call God do not follow any one religion, instead I have found truths in a variety of religions and philosophies that in the end provide me with some comfort, and that conform with my personality. This is true of most people, they just won't admit it, either that or they follow their chosen religion because of pressure or conformity (the largest being family). I know this varies from your question somewhat, but I hope my answer provides something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-fibRe Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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