Mac OS X 10.4 Details

[Spacedog]

Not to spoil your fun buddy, but it is YOU who pays for that.... Apple doesn't give you that for free.

It is just part of the price you pay when you buy Mac OSX.

True, but OS X costs 129 ? and provides me with an mp3 encoder-decoder, an mp4 encoder-decoder, and a dvd decoder. Windows XP costs 439 ? (Professional, full version) and gives me only an mp3 decoder. I can't encode - decode mp4 files (both audio and video), I can't encode mp3s and I can't watch dvds out of the box. MS only provides a wma encoder (which is a proprietary format).

So, it seems to me that even if I pay what Apple gives me with the system, the balance of what I pay and what I gain (comparing it to windows) is undoubtely in my favor.

[Redestium]

True, but OS X costs 129 ? and provides me with an mp3 encoder-decoder, an mp4 encoder-decoder, and a dvd decoder. Windows XP costs 439 ? (Professional, full version) and gives me only an mp3 decoder. I can't encode - decode mp4 files (both audio and video), I can't encode mp3s and I can't watch dvds out of the box. MS only provides a wma encoder (which is a proprietary format).

So, it seems to me that even if I pay what Apple gives me with the system, the balance of what I pay and what I gain (comparing it to windows) is undoubtely in my favor.

When did Schmoove mention Windows again? This was never a comparison.

[aaron901]

When did Schmoove mention Windows again? This was never a comparison.

oh yes he did.

[Spacedog]

When did Schmoove mention Windows again?  This was never a comparison.

He mentioned it in a second post, when he talked about Quick Time and iTunes for Windows.

Doesn't matter, anyway, 'cause I deliberately chose to make a comparison between the two dominant commercial operating systems, since this was implied by Schmoove answer about the cost - real or hidden - of the mpeg 4 license in OS X. I simply wanted to point out that, if everything a commercial software gives you gets paid by the license cost - so that he has a right to say that "Apple doesn't give you the mpeg 4 stuff for free" - it's nonetheless a good gain in the case of OS X, compared to the only other commercial alternative available.

Just to explain what my intentions were, so that we don't start another flamewar here. The data I provided are not a personal opinion, they're something you can verify by yourself.

[Schmoove]

That was a complete different context. Windows was never mentioned in a way to compare apple and microsoft in any way.

Anyways, indeed you don't get a MPEG4 codec with Windows. Instead you get WMA and WMV. WMA is quite a good audio format, not the best, but decent enough for 99% of the users. WMV is a great video format, personally I use it rather then DivX or XviD, I always get the best result with WMV (WMV9 Pro Encoder is free too). If I'm correct, I even believe that WMV is some sort of MPEG4 too, but indeed a closed format.

You're right about playing DVDs, Windows can't do that out of the box. Though that is not really a problem, since you can get media players for free that can do this. Both RealPlayer 10 and Media Player Classic have native support for playing DVD, for FREE!! (and yes RP10 is actuallly a really good player).

So it is not like you have to buy software to be able to play DVD.

By the way the prices you mention are a bit off I think. I can get Windows XP Pro for around ?320 in a retail box and as an OEM version (most people buy the OS together with their computer anyways) you can get it for less then ?130, so prices are pretty much the same. Besides that XP Home is even cheaper and enough for home use (who the hell needs domain support at home??).

Edited May 24, 2004 by Schmoove

[Redestium]

MS & MPEG-4

9 Series Video Codecs

I do believe that MS used MPEG-4 as a basis for WMV but really did a number to make it better.

[Boz]

Schmoove, nicely put. It doesn't make sense to compare OSX with Win XP Pro. XP Home is more than enough for anything. And I have to agree also on the issues on free software. You basically get more free stuff for everything under Windows. Comparison is really totally unnecessary. Although one might say OSX comes with those things out of the box, and I would agree, with Windows you have diversity and choice, while with Apple this is not exactly like that. That was my main issue with OSX. Everything is so integrated and most of the stuff is actually "shoved" down your throat from Apple that you actually don't have too many choices.

Btw, Windows XP Pro, is IMHO a much much more advanced operating system than OSX will ever be. Remote Desktop in OSX Tiger, XP Pro had it for years now. That's why the price difference is there.

And to address the issue of pricing; Mac users paid almost $500 so far for all updates and revisions on OSX so far. I know I spent my own money on some OSX machines as well. So the price isn't the problem as well.

Edited May 24, 2004 by Boz

[Steve]

Schmoove, nicely put. It doesn't make sense to compare OSX with Win XP Pro. XP Home is more than enough for anything. And I have to agree also on the issues on free software. You basically get more free stuff for everything under Windows. Comparison is really totally unnecessary. Although one might say OSX comes with those things out of the box, and I would agree, with Windows you have diversity and choice, while with Apple this is not exactly like that. That was my main issue with OSX. Everything is so integrated and most of the stuff is actually "shoved" down your throat from Apple that you actually don't have too many choices.

Btw, Windows XP Pro, is IMHO a much much more advanced operating system than OSX will ever be. Remote Desktop in OSX Tiger, XP Pro had it for years now. That's why the price difference is there.

And to address the issue of pricing; Mac users paid almost $500 so far for all updates and revisions on OSX so far. I know I spent my own money on some OSX machines as well. So the price isn't the problem as well.

You can't web serve from XP Home, can you? Thats one reason to compare OS X to XP Pro...

Remote Desktop too, is ANOTHER feature that is left out of XP home...

Multiprocessor support is Pro Only...

Personally I think *IT IS* fair to compare the two.

Why tho, In your opinion is XP Pro "much much more advanced operating system than OSX will ever be." ?

[null_]

You can't web serve from XP Home, can you?

Its called Apache :)

[Steve]

Its called Apache :)

Thats built into XP Home? I thought Pro came with IIS, when XP Home didn't...

Thats what Paul Thurrot suggested...

[Argi]

AFAIK, Pro has IIS, not sure about home though. Apache isn't bundled with windows ;)

[the evn show]

It doesn't make sense to compare OSX with Win XP Pro. XP Home is more than enough for anything.

Maybe for you, but not for everyone. Some of us have Dual Processor machines. Some of us have home networks. etc. I'm glad you can get buy with the 'Home' version of Windows, but some of us need more.

You basically get more free stuff for everything under Windows.

Except an MPEG encoder, DVD-Player, an IDE,...

Or maybe you're talking about 3rd party applications? Who cares how many different versions of "My first VB Notepad" exist when the ones that really count are available on both platforms.

Granted windows has some Applications that are not available on OS X (ie: Internet Explorer 6) but then again Mac OS has programs that are not available for Windows too (OmniWeb). For almost every application you can think of there is an analog on both platforms*

Although one might say OSX comes with those things out of the box, and I would agree, with Windows you have diversity and choice, while with Apple this is not exactly like that.

A choice between My-Son-Steves-First-Image-Editor, Susans-Graphics-Box, Fireworks and Photoshop, and GIMP is going to end up as a three horse race: All three that people want to use exist on both platforms.

Everything is so integrated and most of the stuff is actually "shoved" down your throat from Apple that you actually don't have too many choices.

You're right: I hate safari, and iMovie, and iTunes, Mail, and iChat - I think I'll take them off of my system forever and replace them with FireFox, FinalCutExpress, Entourage, Proteus, and XMMS:

* drag icons from applications folder to trash *

* install my prefered applications *

How would you go about completely removing Internet Explorer, Outlook Express, Windows Movie Maker, MSN Messenger (and keep that damn thing from getting snuck back on in the next critical update), and Windows Media Player.

I'm willing to gamble that it's not quiet to simple as dragging the icon from C:\Progra~1\ to the trash.

Btw, Windows XP Pro, is IMHO a much much more advanced operating system than OSX will ever be.

You did say that was your opinion so you're entitled to it, even if it is wrong.

Remote Desktop in OSX Tiger, XP Pro had it for years now.

Mac OS has had a remote desktop application (ARD) since classic Mac OS - it's the control software that isn't free. I mean really: that's the best you can come up with? Why not talk about something that matters like fine grained file system permissions?

Hey, why not mention going from sleep to wireless browsing in less than 3 seconds? And hey, that quartz extreme knock of in windows XP is really cool! And who can forget about that top-5 super computer that runs Windows so clearly it kicks-ass when it comes to clustering services!

Oh wait, I just made that up.

That's why the price difference is there.

So why does 5 licenses of Mac OS X cost $199, and 5 licenses of Windows XP Pro cost ~$900?

And to address the issue of pricing; Mac users paid almost $500 so far for all updates and revisions on OSX so far

Only the ones that wanted to.

* note my use of the word "Application" and not "game"

[Redestium]

Except an MPEG encoder, DVD-Player, an IDE,...

Who makes the encoder? Does it do mpeg-1 and 2? For quality I would go with something by Main Concept versus anything built in, but once again it's nice to have something built in for those who are oblivious to such things. :unsure:

The DVD codec isn't available because MS would be facing more law suits from software DVD companies. There is a free DVD decoder though that solves this problem or pay the small fee to one of the software DVD companies (that's how MS plays nice with other companies). WMP is capable of playing DVDs and S/VCDs, I'm not sure if QuickTime can play those or the DVD player. By the way can you remove QuickTime from OS X? :unsure:

The IDE, well you have me there--having it built in is a plus, but doesn't that **** all over Mac compiler writers? Why don't they sue Apple? Additionally, there are free compilers on the net and most people would say that Visual Studio is the best programming IDE available anyway on any platform.

[the evn show]

Who makes the encoder? Does it do mpeg-1 and 2? For quality I would go with something by Main Concept versus anything built in, but once again it's nice to have something built in for those who are oblivious to such things. :unsure:

Quicktime does MPG-4 and I believe iMovie and iDVD are bundled with OS X provided you have a superdrive (anyone have a copy of CD#2 handy to check?) iTunes (also bundled) does MPEG-3.

The comment was about what's included and what's not: not about what you can bolt on after the fact.

The DVD codec isn't available because MS would be facing more law suits from software DVD companies.  There is a free DVD decoder though that solves this problem or pay the small fee to one of the software DVD companies (that's how MS plays nice with other companies).  WMP is capable of playing DVDs and S/VCDs, I'm not sure if QuickTime can play those or the DVD player. 

Excuses, excuses. You can bold on DVD back but it's not bundled. QuickTime can play back and encode MPEG-2 but it's going to set you back $20 (IIRC), fortunately DVD-player is there movie playback needs.

By the way can you remove QuickTime from OS X?  :unsure:

Quicktime is an API and a set of technologies. The Quicktime player is a program that uses those (sort of like how address book is an application that uses the App-kit, cocoa, and addressbook APIs) - you can remove both of those by tossing them into the trash if that what you'd like.

I don't expect people to trash directshow and system.windows.forms from windows, but it's not unreasonable to request the ability to un-install applications that use those standard APIs without too much hassle.

The IDE, well you have me there--having it built in is a plus, but doesn't that **** all over Mac compiler writers?

Built in != included. RealBASIC and Metroworks are still making money writting compilers for Mac OS so it can't be all bad.

IBM even sells a compiler (compiler != IDE) that you can use on OS X with xCode if you don't care for GCC.

Why don't they sue Apple?

Because apple hasn't engaged in anti-competitive behavior and has been convicted of illegally abusing a monopoly position would be my first guess.

Additionally, there are free compilers on the net and most people would say that Visual Studio is the best programming IDE available anyway on any platform.

Once again I remind you that the comment was about bundled software.

FinalCut Pro, SoundTrack, DVD-Studio pro, and Logic are arguably the best post-production applications in history - but I can't very well use those as examples to show why the Windows software bundle is sub-standard.

[macman87]

Schmoove, nicely put. It doesn't make sense to compare OSX with Win XP Pro. XP Home is more than enough for anything. And I have to agree also on the issues on free software. You basically get more free stuff for everything under Windows. Comparison is really totally unnecessary. Although one might say OSX comes with those things out of the box, and I would agree, with Windows you have diversity and choice, while with Apple this is not exactly like that. That was my main issue with OSX. Everything is so integrated and most of the stuff is actually "shoved" down your throat from Apple that you actually don't have too many choices.

Btw, Windows XP Pro, is IMHO a much much more advanced operating system than OSX will ever be. Remote Desktop in OSX Tiger, XP Pro had it for years now. That's why the price difference is there.

And to address the issue of pricing; Mac users paid almost $500 so far for all updates and revisions on OSX so far. I know I spent my own money on some OSX machines as well. So the price isn't the problem as well.

free stuff in os x not in windows

- dvd player

- mp3 ripping

- iphoto (u have to get adobe photoshop album to manage photos like iphoto)

- calendar app

- dvd burning

- pdf reading and creation

don't like what apple gives u? fine.

address book - get entourage from Microsoft

dvd player - get vlc

imovie - (what if u don't like windows movie maker?) final cut express

iphoto - image capture to get images out and do whatever u want with them

ichat - adium/fire/msn messenger

mail - use entourage

quicktime player - vlc

safari - omniweb/firefox/ theres millions

and the other thing is, why isn't mac os x as advance as windows xp? it has technologies built in like quartz extreme to do stuff thats going to be done in longhorn, rendezvous for automatic networking, and inkwell, based on the technology from newton.

and also, if you didn't like to upgrade u don't have to. apple still supports jaguar and gives it software updates.

[Boz]

@the evn show

Now that's all peachy you wrote up there. But I think you totally got the point wrong.

First of all, another difference that I forgot to mention is XP Home and XP Pro exist exactly to give diversity to users who actually don't need Web servers, MPG4 encoding and so on...XP Pro is for more advanced users that know what they are doing, including dual processor configurations. I haven't seen Apple giving simple people more choices. You know why, because Apple didn't develop OSX they "hacked" it from FreeBSD.

QUOTE

You basically get more free stuff for everything under Windows.

"Except an MPEG encoder, DVD-Player, an IDE,..."

Of course I mean 3rd party apps, for example free DiVX. Some people actually don't need those processes running on their computers and in that sense it's a much better solution.

Granted windows has some Applications that are not available on OS X (ie: Internet Explorer 6) but then again Mac OS has programs that are not available for Windows too (OmniWeb). For almost every application you can think of there is an analog on both platforms*

I will agree with you on that one, though it is obvious there's a much wider choice of apps for XP than for OSX, and we both know why.

How would you go about completely removing Internet Explorer, Outlook Express, Windows Movie Maker, MSN Messenger (and keep that damn thing from getting snuck back on in the next critical update), and Windows Media Player.

Add Remove Programs>Add Remove Windows Components ...simple as that. The thing is that IE is much harder to remove because it's integrated in the core of the OS simply to give you more advanced options under XP. Can you launch an internet page directly through your folder window or have something that's called active desktop? I didn't think so, even though you might not need it, you would be suprise how many people actually uses it.

QUOTE

Btw, Windows XP Pro, is IMHO a much much more advanced operating system than OSX will ever be.

You did say that was your opinion so you're entitled to it, even if it is wrong.

It's interesting how you right away dismiss my opinion as wrong. What makes it wrong? How many serious programmers you know that are developing on OSX? There's a reason for that. I agree there are some that work under *Nix platforms but they are still not on OSX. There are so many technologies under the hood of XP Pro as well as IDE tools for developers that it's simply not comparable. FreeBSD is the essence of OSX and it will always be inferior.

Mac OS has had a remote desktop application (ARD) since classic Mac OS - it's the control software that isn't free. I mean really: that's the best you can come up with? Why not talk about something that matters like fine grained file system permissions?

Of course that I can come up with better things, how about file system permission and security encryption on NTFS file system. How about Active Directory to manage complete corporate networks, the list goes on and on.

Hey, why not mention going from sleep to wireless browsing in less than 3 seconds? And hey, that quartz extreme knock of in windows XP is really cool! And who can forget about that top-5 super computer that runs Windows so clearly it kicks-ass when it comes to clustering services!

First of all nobody actually tried to build XP based Dual Xeon or Dual Opteron clusters as super computer before. The reason why it's among first five is simply because those guys from the University bought G5s, I guess they were either under influence of marketing when the G5 came out or somebody's personal preference. I guarantee that if you paired the same configuration with Opterons the results would be the same if not even better. Read a little on the net about G5/Opteron comparison, you'll get the picture.

If we are going to talk about Quartz ripoff (which I really don't understand what you're talking about), unlike Apple, MS is building their OS completely from scratch, it's their own code, not borrowed. Second, if we are going to talk about ripping somebody off, let's talk about Expose (which is another Cascade/Tile windows feature with some makeup) and Alt-Tab feature that existed in Windows 3.11. Try to open your eyes, and stop listening to nonsense that Steve Jobs is filling you with. As far as the whole windows based OS system, we both know where it came from right? Apple didn't event that either. In essence Apple steals as much as MS maybe even more, but nobody gives a sh*t because it's 3% of computing environment. It's always been like that, smaller are always the loudest. Btw, we are talking here about underlying functionality of Windows/OSX not some stupid eye candy engine that makes shadows and bubbly buttons draw faster. If you really wanna see a true operating system look at new Longhorn and Aero/Avalon/WinFS, the first true 3D operating system. I'm sorry but OSX is not a 3D OS. (a glance at 3D features: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1588160,00.asp). Yeah, I know you might say, hey but that's coming out in late 2005/early 2006, but as I said MS builds their own OS from scratch, not doing makeup on someone elses code.

So why does 5 licenses of Mac OS X cost $199, and 5 licenses of Windows XP Pro cost ~$900?

First of all as far as I know (and I might be wrong) you can install only one copy of OSX on your machine, under legal clause. Microsoft allows one copy of XP to be used on 2 computers. Another thing, can you buy your Mac without OSX? I didn't think so..So every time you buy a Mac you are paying $130 for the OS which is included in the price, that's why you only pay $199, because they already ripped you off. 5 license system for XP is because Microsoft targets businesses, regular users need pretty much 2 copies, which is allowed.

Only the ones that wanted to.

To tell you the truth, that only the ones who wanted to is not exactly true. Whoever needed some crucial updates on their machines (read there were some bugs starting from Jaguar) you had to update to get those issues solved. As far I know you didn't have "Windows Update" feature that will give you all updates for free all the time. So in the end if you wanted to keep your system up-to-date you had to pay up.

Edited May 25, 2004 by Boz

[chmsant]

After 10.4 is released, which should be August if Apple's schedule is on time (but when is it ever!) There will be a slowdown of software releases, the next update coming in around 1.5-2 years. 10.4 should be thought of as a Public Beta for 10.5 which will be the 'perfect' OS. 10.4 will be avalialble for free, as a way of saying Thank you for paying $129 3 times.

Tiger will not be offered for free. Build Scheme is as follows any change in the first 3 characters (ie 10.3 to 10.4) is a relase that must be purchased. anything after the first decimal is considered an update. (10.3.xx.xx)so contrary to what was said from the get go.... you gotta pay for tiger!!!! Enough said!! You wanna argue it let me know. :woot:

[Bling3k12]

So why does 5 licenses of Mac OS X cost $199, and 5 licenses of Windows XP Pro cost ~$900?

First of all as far as I know (and I might be wrong) you can install only one copy of OSX on your machine, under legal clause. Microsoft allows one copy of XP to be used on 2 computers.

I didn't wanna get into this, but when I read this, I have to ask...

If Microsoft allows one copy of XP to be used on two computers, why can't I activate it for both my Desktop PC and my Laptop PC? Last time I checked, Microsoft is just the same way, one copy of XP, one computer.

If I'm wrong, tell me how to convince the people at Microsoft that I can do this, because I think I got screwed shelling out all that money for two copies of XP Professional!

Also, the $199 version of Mac OS X will allow me to install OS X onto 5 separate Macs, it's 5 licenses. The $129 version is one computer, one license.

[session]

@the evn show

Now that's all peachy you wrote up there. But I think you totally got the point wrong.

First of all, another difference that I forgot to mention is XP Home and XP ...

*sign* n00bie talking

and for your information, you can use QUOTE button to quote instead of italic font which makes it harder to read

[Liquid]

I wonder if will only be free if you have Panther. If not my neighbour wont be happy because she just just bought panther.

[Boz]

If Microsoft allows one copy of XP to be used on two computers, why can't I activate it for both my Desktop PC and my Laptop PC? Last time I checked, Microsoft is just the same way, one copy of XP, one computer.

If I'm wrong, tell me how to convince the people at Microsoft that I can do this, because I think I got screwed shelling out all that money for two copies of XP Professional!

You don't have to buy 2 copies of XP for Christ sake. Just install Windows on your desktop, it will ask you to activate and then you install the same Windows on your laptop and activate there. It works fine, I don't know why it's not working for you bro. I have Windows installed on my workstation and my laptop, with the same key and I activated on both machines and it went without any problems.

[Boz]

*sign* n00bie talking

and for your information, you can use QUOTE button to quote instead of italic font which makes it harder to read

Listen session, I'm not a noob and I definitely know about things more than you do, trust me. It was easier for me to copy/paste stuff this way. I'm sorry if that bothered you.

[session]

Listen session, I'm not a noob and I definitely know about things more than you do, trust me. It was easier for me to copy/paste stuff this way. I'm sorry if that bothered you.

hahaha, you know more than I do eh? Well, from your post, we know that's obviously WRONG. Sorry for breaking your heart but sometimes having too much self confidence isn't a good thing either. Let's just go through some of your points:

Add Remove Programs>Add Remove Windows Components ...simple as that. The thing is that IE is much harder to remove because it's integrated in the core of the OS simply to give you more advanced options under XP. Can you launch an internet page directly through your folder window or have something that's called active desktop? I didn't think so, even though you might not need it, you would be suprise how many people actually uses it.

Yeah... Very simple... now you tell me how you're about to remove Windows Messenger and Internet Explorer from Windows... or... let's say... Notepad

* I have to mention Internet Explorer because in Mac OS X, you can remove about everything

If you really wanna see a true operating system look at new Longhorn and Aero/Avalon/WinFS, the first true 3D operating system. I'm sorry but OSX is not a 3D OS.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Mac OS X 10.3 Panther was released to public in 2003. Give me some exact information when Longhorn will be released?

Just how can you compare a released OS with an unreleased one. I'm sure Apple will come up with more and better ideas by the time Longhorn is released... which will be like... 2006 maybe?

Now stop being like a smartass because you're not qualified... at least you didn't know how to quote and I do :whistle:

[JadeWolf324]

hahaha, you know more than I do eh? Well, from your post, we know that's obviously WRONG. Sorry for breaking your heart but sometimes having too much self confidence isn't a good thing either. Let's just see some of your points:

Yeah... Very simple... now you tell me how you're about to remove Windows Messenger and Internet Explorer from Windows... or... let's say... Notepad

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Mac OS X 10.3 Panther was released to public in 2003. Give me some exact information when Longhorn will be released?

Just how can you compare a released OS with an unreleased one. I'm sure Apple will come up with more and better ideas by the time Longhorn is released... which will be like... 2006 maybe?

Now stop being like a smartass because you're not qualified... at least you didn't know how to quote and I d:whistle:e:

OWNAGE!

*runs to the shadows"

[Boz]

session listen man, you were to first to act like all cocky and "ELITE"...so please. Second of all, I never compared Longhorn to OSX, I just pointed out some of the features that can be previewed RIGHT NOW on Longhorn builds.

And please stop posting stupid remarks like "How to uninstall messenger"...You can...exactly as I described it. Add Remove and you will see the Messenger in the list. IE cannot be uninstalled completely simply because it's used for internal Windows operations.

Yeah, I'm sure Apple will come up with OSX Teddy Bear by the time Longhorn ships and rip you off like sheep until then for updates as it always does. And if you read a little you would notice that next release for OSX will be in periods of 1.5-2 years.