Why can't Linux agree on a universal install?


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markjensen

I'm not going to say you are a troll... :p

But I will make a few counter-points. ;)

As far as iv'e seen in my 3 years of using Linux is that its progressivly moving backwards or not moving at all towards a state of being friendly to the remotest computer user.
Xandros, Linspire, Linare and Lycoris would disagree with you. These all take away the 'pains' of the command line. Linspire offers click-n-run to select and install new programs at a convenient central place. While their system isn't what *I* want, it does do exactly what you say Linux does not do.
RPM technology just is not good enough for the common Joe. Windows and OS X solve the problems with installers .exe or .dmg or etc.
This is specific to a limited sub-set of distros (RH/Fedora, Mandrake, and SUSE). In the case of RedHat/Fedora, yum solves dependencies. For Mandrake, there is urpmi. Not sure what SUSE has, but all of these distros can use apt and even throw a nice synapic GUI front-end in there. No dependendy issues.
Linux is still expecting every user to compile his/her software.
This directly contradicts your previous statement regarding RPMs. RPMs allow users to NOT compile from source. Plus, I had to run ONE script to compile my nVidia module. I didn't need to know anything about compiling. Just execute one command to start a script that did all the work. If this is too much compiling, purchased distros will have this in them. See above list in first paragraph.

There are many solutions to these problems. Most people who point out "issues" in Linux are really aiming at a very narrow subset of distros (at least you didn't complain about the lack of Fedora's MP3 support as if it were a Linux-wide problem) ;)

Don't be fooled. Linux has made ENORMOUS strides in the past few years. Yes, there are still improvements to be made, but the foundation is already there, and changes happen DAILY in Linux. :yes:

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Aeonandromere

Im using Gentoo right now, thank you very much, and I just go pwned :D

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Redestium

Maybe someone can tell me what?s going on with the United Linux group? When I first heard about it I said to myself ?this sounds great?. Since then I haven?t heard anything at all about it, which is a little disappointing.

Standards are important since that?s what 3rd parties are looking to develop for (both big name software and hardware support) and with that 3rd party support comes more users and more users means more support and so on. Right now I see Linux as a bunch of clans that have yet to be united under one banner?while all the different distributions (choices) are good for some, the vast majority are just looking for something more prepackaged and easy to transition to from what they currently use (most likely Windows).

Presentation is also important and for every CLI there should be a GUI frontend for those who want it by default, if Linux is to succeed they really need to embrace the novice as well?get new blood. In addition a default standard UI should be developed and decided upon that all distributions use as a means to identify to the person just discovering it ?oh this is Linux?. Still retain all of what it is now (and the ability to change the window manager, etc.) just make it more approachable and make basic interaction and program installation common among all distributions so a user doesn?t need to necessarily know what type of Linux they are running to be comfortable with it. This is of course only my view, take it for what you will.

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csabo2

opensource isnt going to be unified, reason is , no one will redo everything to one standard, as they arent paid, secondly , if they were all the same, why use one distro over another? everyone likes things there own way, therefore they choose the appropriate distro :)

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Maxious
opensource isnt going to be unified, reason is , no one will redo everything to one standard, as they arent paid, secondly , if they were all the same, why use one distro over another? everyone likes things there own way, therefore they choose the appropriate distro :)

i fully disagree about standards.

if you want something open source to conform to a standard you can code in support for that standard. eg. apt for fedora/mandrake or gentoo emerge for just about any distro (yes, it is weird having what operates like 2 seperate distros going at the same time - i use fedora and gentoo at the same time and im not sure whats handling what bit of startup :p)

installing has always been a weak point but with GUI based installs being re written it will hoepfully just be like comparing win xp and win2k3 server

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markjensen
Maybe someone can tell me what?s going on with the United Linux group? When I first heard about it I said to myself ?this sounds great?. Since then I haven?t heard anything at all about it, which is a little disappointing.

United Li:woot: :woot:

One of the "united" companies had a 'regime change', and turned around and starting espouting that they OWNED Linux (as they claimed it was a UNIX® derivitave). Then they started a slander and extortion campaign against properly licensed Linux users. Then they started LAWSUITS against a few of them.

So, now I think that it exists only in name...

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DTR

I will just add this:

updates in linux are *VERY EASY*.

apt-get dist-upgrade (same thing with yum, mdk rpm, etc)

and your system is up to date. No compiling, no hassle. If you don't like CLI - synaptic deals with both rpm and deb. You can even install rpms (and others also) in debian using alien -i [pack] command.

Asking about double-click package install - kpackage does exactly that (provided you know root password).

At least in Debian sid, I have to compile just the kernel and nvidia module + some additional themes (like galaxy or bluecurve). BTW, thats optional; Debian has many kernels and nvidia driver.

And some words abut windows: I don't understand why people say it's easy. (Perhaps they are too afraid to get anything newer/easier) One has to manually select all update (at least in w98). Perhaps autopatchers makes things easier. But hey, there is an option to add cron script for auto updating. Anyway, you'll never get anything new from m$.

moreover, reinstalling windows is a pure pain in the ass. Installing hundreds of apps separately - a task for 3 days. Linux -whatever distro- comes with almost all the software you might need.

Perhaps people need to be educated. E. g. sending weekly spam: 'type "apt-get dist-updgrade" or use synaptic to update'.

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Fred Derf
Maybe someone can tell me what?s going on with the United Linux group? When I first heard about it I said to myself ?this sounds great?. Since then I haven?t heard anything at all about it, which is a little disappointing.

Caldera was a founding member of United Linux.

SCO bought Caldera.

That pretty much killed United Linux.

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Bearded Kirklander

Some Linux fanatics don't even want to acknowledge the shortcomings of the OS. I guess this question is not going to be very helpful and is not going to be settled anytime soon. Hope Linux does well, inspite of its stubborn shortcomings.

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markjensen
Some Linux fanatics don't even want to acknowledge the shortcomings of the OS. I guess this question is not going to be very helpful and is not going to be settled anytime soon. Hope Linux does well, inspite of its stubborn shortcomings.

I agree.

There are shortcomings to Linux, and to Windows, and to MacOS. :yes:

Just ignore the fanboys who see nothing wrong, and the detractors who see nothing right.

That leaves the majority still able to make critical judgements.

It's a shame that the obnoxious minority is also the most vocal. :no:

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Bearded Kirklander
I agree.

There are shortcomings to Linux, and to Windows, and to MacOS. :yes:

Just ignore the fanboys who see nothing wrong, and the detractors who see nothing right.

That leaves the majority still able to make critical judgements.

It's a shame that the obnoxious minority is also the most vocal. :no:

Well said. :)

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metal_dragen

I think the main issue with 90% of these types of discussions boils down to choice. Open source software and GNU/Linux in general is about choice. You have the choice of what desktop environment you want (or not), you have the choice of what shell you use, you have the choice of kernels, you have a choice for just about everything in Linux.

You also have a choice about distros. Every single distro was created by a person who thought of it as their perfect operating system. Some other people shared their view and downloaded it and used it. This, in my view, is the single greatest, and single worst thing about GNU/Linux. Everyone has different views about what is the "perfect" OS, and what isn't. Because of this, there will never be a single, unified distribution of GNU/Linux. And because of that, there will never be a single, unified package manager.

Windows is not about choice. Sure you can change how the desktop looks, but you can't change it's functionality. You can with GNU/Linux. Microsoft has forced it's view of a perfect OS and how it works on everyone in the world. Because of that, 90% of the people out there view a PC running Windows as the "ideal" for a computer. Too many people try to compare apples to oranges in this respect.

Windows is not the right way to do it. GNU/Linux may not be the right way to do it. BSD may not be the right way to do it. Hell, for all we know, some OS could come along in a few years (SkyOS?) that blows everything we know right now out of the water and makes discussions like this irrelevant.

The problem is that most people still try to compare every "alternative" OS to Windows - which was forced on the world by Microsoft and it's marketing team (props to them, eh? ;) ). This is not the way to do it. Talk to any usability expert about the Windows GUI. According to any sort of decent usability guidelines, the Windows GUI and how it functions is absolute rubbish.

To solve this sort of problem, you need to discard everything you know, and ask people how they want something to work. Don't compare it to existing systems, try to emulate existing systems, or try to adapt existing systems. The only way to do it is to start fresh.

Anyway, my 2??.

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nuka_t

well said dragon.

markjensen, about hte people that say linux is perfect, i htink most say it tongue-in-cheek. because at the same time they are saying that, they are probably ironing out bugs, adding new features to the apps that they made, or cleaning up their icon sets, or somehting. i think however that mac users are the more "os x is perfect, everything else sucks" type.

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