A revelation for Neowin perhaps? (long!)


Recommended Posts

If #2 was not flame, then I guess my definition is wrong then. I think in order for #2 to not be a flame, I think the last word "facist" shouldn't be there. Name calling don't go well with it, don't you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps . . . nomis

But I know when I'm hanging out with my friends, we call each other names all the time. It's usually tongue in cheeck and nothing is meantt by it. I purposly added the smilie because in the absence of facial expression and intonation, I wanted to convey that idea that I mean no harm.

Here is the crux of the flaw in the one violation and you're out rule. I don't feel number two is a flame . . . I was smiling when I wrote it and I did my best to convery that. Yet so far there are two people who would call it a flame. If I used the word "weenie," would it still be a flame?

This board has grown, it's multicutural and multinational. When dealing with such situations, it is hard to lay the template of one set of interpretations over the whole. The response of the enforcement body needs to be moderate. If the mods get too extreme they will be banning people who feel that they have done nothing wrong. And that would be tragic.

I hope we get some more responses to these examples . . . I really feel that this is a constructive conversation. A conversation that needs to be had in light of what the staff here is considering. I also appreciate your response nomis. Thank-you.

-TR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by TimeRider

If the mods get too extreme they will be banning people who feel that they have done nothing wrong. And that would be tragic.

I couldn't agree more. When Neowin has people here that are "thick skinned" and people that are not so "thick skinned" its finding the happy medium that is the daunting task of EVERY moderator here on Neowin.

That is why I appreciate all the moderators who face this task daily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First, in reply to TimeRider's *points* (assuming -- of course -- they're buried in the example responses):

It's not my idea. I stepped in to show a reason for why a decision like posting "every rule everwhere" would be made by an admin. Since I've admin'ed a site or two in the past (and can still think in that mode), this would be my goal in doing so. And I certainly didn't say they were to be posted everywhere. The reason I didn't is, I don't believe they should. My phrases were more prevalent and command your attention at some point. What this really entails is up to your interpretation.

Note I'm not even of a mind that such changes to how/where you see the rules will improve things. I was explaining what I believe the reasoning behind such a move would be on the part of an admin.

Second, in regards to TimeRider's examples:

One and Two, in my mind, are not flames. However under certain conditions they can be seen as offensive by individual members or taken as personal attacks, no matter the intent of the poster. Does this define a breaking of forum rules? I'll let you decide that.

Three walks the flame line very closely, but within my own ability to judge such things, it is a post that earns a warning/ban for violating forum rules. Whether the rules require further delineation to better explain this is another matter.

Finally, the day I take anything personally on these boards is the day I log off the Net for good and go live in a commune. Perhaps everyone should keep that level of a participatory attitude in mind. I believe it would lessen the angst and aggression that leads to having discussions like this one in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, i think that #3 has jumped with both feet over the flame line, not to the point where it deserves a ban, but a warning maybe. It actually is really just blatant proof that the poster is an idiot, but the problem with it is that if you don't make a stand there, then the thread might spiral out of control

#1 is to me the one that is most closely walking the flame line. The problem is one thing, the word "Nazi". To most people, and in almost all situations, that is a bad word. There are times when it is not, like if i called you a Soup Nazi then it might be seen of as humorous. But let's say that i come from someplace that has never seen Seinfeld and doesn't know the comic meanings of Soup Nazi? Reminds me of the time that a friend of mine was getting heat from this one girl in college and he said to her as he was walking away, "Roast in an oven Nazi bitch". Wrong thing to say, turns out this girl was jewish and had relatives that had died in the concentration camps. Nazi is a word that has nearly reached the other "N" word status as a swear word, and i think you know which one I'm speaking of. Suffice to say that it's the one word that you would never, ever, ever want to say to someone of African heritage.

I find it tragic that we almost have to act like "thought police" to try and keep Neowin under control and makes me have more respect for the headaches that Neowin faces on a daily basis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hrrmm, I just wanted to point out tho, like you said TimeRider, when hanging out with friend's etc, we often call each other names. Often times saying f.uck you to each other etc, but we mean no harm or wanting to offend in any way. That I would consider toying around, playing, that kind of stuff.

But we must realize that when we post, people can "hear" our tones, thus can't correctly determine what we mean. For example:

Me: Man, that movie was tight!

Friend: What the f.uck?! That movie was totally retarded, fit for 3 year olds!

Me: Shut the hell up, motherfu.cker, you know you liked it.

Friend: Whatever.

Well, that conversation above is totally normal if we are with friends and talking etc. And no big deal with the cussing and stuff.

But if that was posted in a forum and two people interacting with each other, I can assure you that it'll get out of hand pretty darn quick.

So what I am getting at is: remember words in writing and conversational phrases are not the same, even if they are the same exact phrase. The tone is what counts. And I do agree that a smiley does cannotate some emotion, but often times it's still not enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the only thing the admin asks is that people maybe read over what they respond (to someone) and think about the consequences of their response. Its what I try to do..and in my eyes trying is already enough.

We can now accept that people come here from all walks of life. If you can respect that you may be participating in a thread started by an American who has has responses from UK, Israel, Africa you name it.. if you are aware of this and respect it like I do then we are already half way there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Neobond

the only thing the admin asks is that people maybe read over what they respond (to someone) and think about the consequences of their response. Its what I try to do..and in my eyes trying is already enough.

We can now accept that people come here from all walks of life. If you can respect that you may be participating in a thread started by an American who has has responses from UK, Israel, Africa you name it.. if you are aware of this and respect it like I do then we are already half way there.

I agree with you totally. Due to culture differences and different language usage, it'll be hard to really just set a set standard. Besides, that would take out the point of internet (freedom to express oneself). But as I said in my first post in this thread, simply respect others like how you would respect yourself.

Besides, doesn't the thought of "you" being within a big family from all over the world bring a smile to your face? Perhaps I am too idealistic, but I think we all like the sense of belonging. :)

(and most of us respect members of their family right? ;) there's always some exceptions... but hey, we love you too!)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dARKSTAr,

I guess I've seen (and been the recipient of) so many flames in my time online that TimeRider's third example is puerile and tame in comparison. However I can see your viewpoint on it.

For the comment of your friend, I'm neither a woman, Jewish, nor have lost family to the Holocaust. Yet I would still be offended by his statement. There is a line of civility in any community one should try at all times not to swerve from. Trying to protect ourselves from such is not thought policing, since any member here can think whatever they like. But this is a public board and when allowing ones thoughts to go public you force yourself into that community's set of standards and levels of tolerance. If a particular word, phrase, or mode of behavior is not acceptable to the general membership, tolerating it from someone is a self-defeating goal, since in time you alienate and lose those members who can not.

We should all realize that any direction taken is a compromise based on what type of community we want Neowin to model itself for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This of course brings me back to the underlying idea that I have expressed all along in that there needs to be some give and take in any situation.

To simply say one violation and you're out does not take into account the cultural differences that we need to weigh before such an extreme sanction as banning occurs. I think that everyone is in agreement that there are those authors that without doubt, post mean spirited hateful things on this forum. If they cannot modify their behavior, ****-'em, kick them out.

But we have to find a measure of tolerance for human emotion and cultural differences. People are going to get angry with each other in this environment. Sometimes they will say things in the heat of a discussion that maybe shouldn't be said. Should they be "stoned" for such behavior. I don't think that's appropriate either.

In the same breath I say also that some authors need to take things less personally, and I see a lot of agreement here that just because someone disagrees with something that you have said and maybe calls you an idiot, doesn't mean they should be banned. Maybe that person just needs to be "counseled" by a moderator. Maybe the thread just needs to be closed at that point.

"So, let us not be blind to our differences, but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which the differences can be resolved. And if we cannot now end our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For in the final analysis, our most basic link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal."

-John F. Kennedy, 1963

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok... there were about 10 pages long to read all but after skimming though many ideas, I think a good way of controlling the flamers is with this simple logic. Since they flame they should be given a "special tag" from modders and admins. The Admins of NeoWin (Neobond and Redmak) should have create a script to allow them to see a special buttons that is dedicated to "tag" that nick. E-mail the users or the subscribers of the forum of this change. Then put this rule into effect. The users should see the "number of strikes" next to their nick. So that they are aware of their wrong doing. When, say 3 strikes are out, then that person will NOT BE ALLOWED TO POST but only entitle to just view the threads.

This way, the only flaming can only live inside the flamers heart. Let flame flame itself. Let fear fear itself. kekeke... Does this sound like a good idea Neobond? This way everyone still benefit from all rights. The only punishment is that he/she can't continue to respond to his own flame. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Krome: Yes it sounds good. Some sort of personal tagging system, either for admin view only or per user viewing would help. The old football system of the Yellow card on your avatar (or something similar if it exists) would remind wrong do-ers to think before they continue to flame etc etc. We will look into this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good idea Krome. Not a perfect solution (what is?), but a great modification to the tagging concept. Letting the member track their own misdeeds puts the impetus on them the act (or interact) with the mods on changing their own behavior, instead of the other way round (thereby making less demands on the mods to keep apace).

I recommend if it's implemented they call it the Krome tag. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we should get more MODs like me :)

But anyway I remember when Neowin was just a bunch of people awed by Windows XP. I hardly remember problems then, I remember going around the forums and there was nothing to MOD! Things have changed.

1 Vote for B:rambo:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean freedom of expression is great. If you want to flame, then flame. If it does not bother you then go on. If it bothers you then reply.

However, if the person breaks the rulez, using fowl language, racism etc....

then they should be dealt with. This is only my opinion. If you ban peeps for flaming, then I truly feel some mods should be banned as they flame as strong or as critical when provoked as the original flamer. Two wrongs do not necessarily make a right!

THese are just my thoughts.

In addition I feel it would be wise to add a few more mods, that are carefully chosen, and have shown greater interest in the good of Neowin.

BB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree 100%.

I personally think rewriting the rules as to be somewhat more clear on what is classed as abuse.

Also I think another issue that does cause allot of traffic is the stupid things like posting a comment in a thread that has nothing to do with the topic.

I have seen so many threads that start with a Mac Question or an Intel Question and instantly there are hundreds of hits that are flaming either intel or mac or whatever.

I think that maybe a report button on each comment made will allow some replies that the admin may not see to be reported by the members and bought to neobonds attention. THis means we all can be kinda mini mods.

Just a thought.

Edit: Also I am unsure on making a publicly viewable system of knowing who is a flamer or not. THis in turn would kinda make the admin flamers. As you said neobond: "Flaming is like when you completely burn down someones character publically."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by StimpyX

Good idea Krome. Not a perfect solution (what is?), but a great modification to the tagging concept. Letting the member track their own misdeeds puts the impetus on them the act (or interact) with the mods on changing their own behavior, instead of the other way round (thereby making less demands on the mods to keep apace).

I recommend if it's implemented they call it the Krome tag. :)

Hehehehe "the Krome tag" :) very slick of you... :)

Any ways... let me clarify my suggestions to those a bit further. When I suggested this, I meant it for all other wrong doing not just towards "flaming" alone, which applies name calling and racist remarks. Yes freedom of speech is our rights but it is not right when it is in conflict with the forum rules. The forum rules has been set in writing that this will not be tolerated and action is required to enforce that rule. This is why I suggested this. But the user will not loose any more rights other than not being able to post for awhile. But what Neobond choose to do is his choice.

Again, this is only a suggestion... :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by eangulus

I think that maybe a report button on each comment made will allow some replies that the admin may not see to be reported by the members and bought to neobonds attention. THis means we all can be kinda mini mods.

Check the lower right corner of every message... We already have the power, and yet the problem remains -- mainly because a lot of us find it easier to reply in kind than stop, think like a mini-mod for a moment, and report anyone breaking the rules. Somehow it seems that getting into a fight is easier than finding ways of avoiding it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by StimpyX

Check the lower right corner of every message... We already have the power, and yet the problem remains -- mainly because a lot of us find it easier to reply in kind than stop, think like a mini-mod for a moment, and report anyone breaking the rules. Somehow it seems that getting into a fight is easier than finding ways of avoiding it.

Maybe that is the whole issue. I forgot all about it and had to actually look for it to remember it was always there. Look at the Post Reply button. Which one do you think everyone sees the most.

May making it more visable and accesable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't go through all these boring non flaming messages but ... ;)

I will implement a 'Krome' tagging system for mods and admins. I realize it must be difficult for mods to moderate when they hardly know how to mod and have hardly enough means to do it. Moving/deleting and banning are the only options right now. Mods work individually but need to work as a team, we do talk in the mod area on this board but a tagging system will be a good addition to it. (maybe I'll add a comment field to each user as well so a mod can leave some kind of comment on why a user was banned or whatever).

A couple more mods would be good too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by wog boy

yeah a few more mods would be good.. not that the current mods are not doing a terrible job..:D

If I remember correctly a double negative becomes a positive :ponder:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.