TimeRider Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I would still like to hear an Israeli response to my question about spoils of war . . . In the history of recent warfare, where civilized States were at war, tell me another example where this practice of occupation applies. By maintaining that you are entitled to spoils of war, you leave yourselves open to the hostility of the displaced population. It is a politically unsound policy to expect that this land belongs to your country. It is contrary to the standards of behavior of an enlightened, cultured and sophisticated society, which finds itself in the role of the victor. History has proven time and time again that such a practice only leads to the next conflict. Including the one you are embroiled in now. It is Feudal. Please, please explain it to me . . . if you could justify that simple idea . . . I might agree. To say that you need a buffer is a Stalinist concept, so try something else. Justify the occupation after 1967 . . . -TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by TimeRider I would still like to hear an Israeli response to my question about spoils of war . . . In the history of recent warfare, where civilized States were at war, tell me another example where this practice of occupation applies. By maintaining that you are entitled to spoils of war, you leave yourselves open to the hostility of the displaced population. It is a politically unsound policy to expect that this land belongs to your country. It is contrary to the standards of behavior of an enlightened, cultured and sophisticated society, which finds itself in the role of the victor. History has proven time and time again that such a practice only leads to the next conflict. Including the one you are embroiled in now. It is Feudal. Please, please explain it to me . . . if you could justify that simple idea . . . I might agree. To say that you need a buffer is a Stalinist concept, so try something else. Justify the occupation after 1967 . . . -TR We may disagree on other issues, but I don't think that you're going to get a valid answer out of them on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeRider Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 We may disagree on other issues, but I don't think that you're going to get a valid answer out of them on this. It isn't important for us to agree on every issue . . . I think you're right here though . . . I'll never see a satisfactory answer because there isn't one. What's important is the desire to understand, and that we celebrate our differences. I mean hell . . . how boring would the world be if we all agreed all the time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooo Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 it's not 210,000 people... get your lies straight.. and again I'm done replying, please do not reply to my post again because it only pulls me back in here and I don't want that. you are free to continue your one sided racist thread on your own... yeah I guess in your eyes you won... have fun again. as for the more civilized guy in the thread I would get into your question but I really don't feel like staying here so I wont, if you want an answer to that you are invited to come to Israeli-Arab forums that can be found all over the net and ask that question I'm sure you will get one from both sides... later.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo1980 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 uve lost the debate cuz u have realised that Israel is carrying out State terrorism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by ooo it's not 210,000 people... get your lies straight.. and again I'm done replying, please do not reply to my post again because it only pulls me back in here and I don't want that. you are free to continue your one sided racist thread on your own... yeah I guess in your eyes you won... have fun again. Of course, you don't want to know that truth. Yes, it is around 210,000 illegal settlers in the occupid teorritories. All sides admit to this number. Your government is lying to you about the entire situation to get what it wants. More land... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeRider Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I had heard 276,000 . . . but I suppose that it really doesn't make a difference now does it? West Bank ~ 246 Settlements Gaza Strip ~ 33 Settlements Golan Heights ~ 44 Settlements circa 1996 -TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortensen Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 And many Israelis believe that all of the land there is their's by divine right and will kill whomever gets in their way.LOL, no... they are just greedy and like killing people. Duh! :pJust like you, most of the people here just got tired from all these wars. We don't want all the land. They can have their land and we have ours and that's it. And yes, there are a lot of problems that needed to be solved... Yeah... the small amount of land they have is STRICTLY controlled and people aren't allowed out into the street. The Israeli army graffitis on posters of Arafat (or however you spell it). This was all reported by the BBC from INSIDE a Palestinian town. Let me just take this time for me to express how much I HATE what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and how I SUPPORT the actions of Palestinians fighting back from HOSTILE attacks. There is NO WAY Israel can justify sending in tanks and helicopter gunships to repay for a suicide bomber; there is no way to defend bulldozing down buildings with people living in them; there is no way to justify using injured Palestinians from ambulances as human shields after stripping them naked; there is no way to justify the arrests of THOUSANDS of people and treating them in such an undignified and horrible way. No amount of arguements can make the above things justified. FULL STOP!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by TimeRider I had heard 276,000 . . . but I suppose that it really doesn't make a difference now does it? West Bank ~ 246 Settlements Gaza Strip ~ 33 Settlements Golan Heights ~ 44 Settlements circa 1996 -TR The way they're invading the occupid territories it probably is up to 300,000 or more by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshie Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I'm starting to get peeved by the knee-jerk anti-Palestinian racism I find on these forums. Like that post that was just deleted about the article on how Jewish law condones betrothal to three year olds. Regardless of the fact that it made direct quotations from a document that it named and you, the reader, can look up on your own and prove or disprove, numerous posters attacked it as anti-semitic lies because it was on a Palestinian news site. Yet not a single one actually thought to maybe find out and see if it was a lie or not. I'm also getting peeved by knee-jerk anti-Israel crap I see around here. Nothing should ever be knee-jerk. However, it's nice to see people who don't just fall to their knees and kiss Sharon's feet using good grammar and writing styles. It makes the one or two people along the way that argue back like some sort of l33t haxx0rz look stupid. As it stands, there's no denying that Sharon is has a history of war crimes, and that, as a leader, if he isn't condoning what his soldiers are doing to Palestinian civilians, then he's doing a crappy job of keeping his soldiers under control. With the atrocities of Jenin staring him in the face and that whole ruckus at the nativity site, if Sharon didn't support those acts, then he's certainly not a strong enough leader to prevent the acts. His military is clearly badly organized and the soldiers are out of control, and yet his military has access to a humongous arsenal. I don't know if I'm comfortable knowing that an army of men with the maturity of 4 year old bullies has access to those arms. It also stands that Arafat isn't a saint either. However, I'm amazed at how we can blame all the 'new' bad stuff that's happening on him, claiming he directly ordered all of it, since the media is making it quite clear that he's trapped in a room with nothing more than a dead/dying cell phone (which, frankly, are easily tapped with good enough technology). The governments on both sides are morons, and I think the best justice would be putting them both together in one big state and calling it "Haha" and forcing them all to just get along. Of course, if the Israelis are scared of persecution and sticking up for themselves, that's understandable. We'll send our big, strong, USA troops over there to protect you and make it alllll better, okey dokey? We'll even have Bush come over and personally kiss all your booboos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P. Administrators Posted April 17, 2002 Administrators Share Posted April 17, 2002 Joshie, I deleted that thread because unlike this one (asking Your thoughts of the Israel-Palestine Conflict) the thread was started and stated a fact with INTENT to cause flaming across religions. Its as simple as that. I hope you understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickedkitten Veteran Posted April 17, 2002 Veteran Share Posted April 17, 2002 yeah well in response to said deleted thread it most definitely is true. The minimum age of consent of marriage for girls of the jewish faith is 12 and yes some people do betroth their daughters at the age of 3. Not just in Jewish countries but in Muslim ones as well.By the very term Mishnah kiddushin it involves that a woman can be acquired by either money, a contract, or sexual intercourse. It's fine and dandy to get ****ed off if a person is lying but what the article is stating is true. That would almost be as silly as me as a Catholic getting ****ed off and saying people are lying about priests raping altar boys. Yes its unpleasant to hear but sometimes the truth hurts and to pass it off as being anti-semitic is retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playsatan Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by Neobond Joshie, I deleted that thread because unlike this one (asking Your thoughts of the Israel-Palestine Conflict) the thread was started and stated a fact with INTENT to cause flaming across religions. Its as simple as that. I hope you understand I don't understand and think that the descision was a bad one, but thats your perogative as the board admin. On a side note, as someone who really tries not in gneral to follow the whole isrealli / palestine situation (maybe once i did, now i can honesty say that i'm bored of it), i'd be more than happy to sit back, watch the 6'o'clock news tell me about happiness in the world, and let both sides kill each other -- heartless maybe, but in a situation where no-one will admit wrong, and a situation that there is no conceivable end to, you have to make the choice thats best for you, i.e. me, and that is to say "kill each other, and get it over with quick". The simple attitudes expressed by people on both sides on the conflict on this board alone is enough for me to feel vindicated in all prior statements re : slaughterdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshie Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Neobond-- Nah, I didn't have any problem with it being deleted, though it sure stumped me for a second why I couldn't submit one of my own posts to it. :] It would've been more appropriate in this thread, since this isn't a political forum, so politics should stay as clumped together as possible here. The only thing I was annoyed with was the numerous "That's from Palestine, so it MUST be a lie!" posts. As if all Palestinians are subhuman evil spawn of Hades. The vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli commonfolk just wanna do their own thing. It's the military and political classes of the two states that have their panties in a bunch. I don't have any real solutions to it all. Hopefully they'll do a good enough job wiping each other's weapons and leaders out to give them a shot at a clean slate, but I get the feeling that the minute one leader vanishes, UN or US officials will plant yet another unstable leader over there, and the wheel will start its cycle all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I'm sorry I missed the other thread now... I didn't see the article, but if the jist of it was that "a woman can be acqired by money, contract or by sexual intercourse", then of course it's perfectly right. It's a tradition that carries on through most Western cultures: Money (traditionally a coin of nominal value, but in modern times, this would be the wedding ring) is a symbolic act of acceptance of marriage. The contract is the marriage ceremony itself, while consumating the marriage is effectively sealing the contract. Exactly the same in Jewish, Muslim and Christian law, just expressed slightly differently. Just do a google search for "mishnah kiddushin" if you particularly want to find out more. As for betrothal at 12 or younger, this is by no means unique to Judiasm - plenty of cultures have arranged marriages from before children are born - but marriages at such a young age mostly happen among the ultra-orthodox. Incidentally, the reason that it's 12 for girls and 13 for boys is because this is when they have their bar/bat-mitzvahs and are declared "adults" by the community. But unsurprisingly, most people don't get married until well into their twenties or thirties (and sociological data says that it's getting later all the time). Useful information, but because I didn't see the article, I'm not quite sure how it relates to it. But it's there FYI, if anyone cares. Now I only hope, since I've promised myself not to get into an argument again over this, that people can be more tolerent in this thread - it's decended into an "i'm right, you're wrong" situation where no one is listening to arguments from the other side. That's not a discussion, that's just a shouting match... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
menace inc Posted April 18, 2002 Share Posted April 18, 2002 Middle East is really hopeless land. European is so scared their middle east decent people and want everyone to solve their f**king problems because they are too dumb to do so. I'm glad I live in North American, so are my Asian friends. We don't care about their overpriced oil exports because we soon will be able to find oil from former Soviet repulics. Damit, even the Russians are doing better in these days. Improving our economy is hard enough and we can really do away with all the middle east craps. Sick of hearing Arab/Isralie conflicts craps......... Originally posted by Joshie The governments on both sides are morons, and I think the best justice would be putting them both together in one big state and calling it "Haha" and forcing them all to just get along Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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