Your thoughts of the Israel-Palestine Conflict


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Originally posted by nant

WOW.

Yazoo, do you know why there was a bombing today?? Because we left two cities. Do you know where from it came?! FROM THOSE TWO CITIES.

If we would not have check points and road blocks, do you have any idea how many people would die? Policemen and soldiers die in those road blocks and check points to save life!!

About these two things, you are truely clueless.

Hahah thats so funny, yes Israel left 2 cities but then entered 2 others

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Originally posted by nant

I tried keeping this as a discussion but Yazzo's last post totaly ****ed me off.

Yes I thought it may **** someone off. Just as any feeble excuse why war is nessacary ****es me off.

I think this topic is to sensitive and some people can/are being offended. So I'm gonna cease posting here.

:(

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I think it is inevitable that threads like this will bring out the worst in some of us. They touch on very sensitive issues and in alot of ways people have a right to be offended. People will have opinions, often strong ones and will express them. A tip for those who care.... a discussion is not about trying to sway someone towards your way of thinking. It is simply getting them to look at the subject from a different perspective.....

Keldyn

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Ok. I'll start this with saying sorry for my bad English.

As you see I'm from Israel but I am also an American Citizen.

My poit begins with a little history lesson:

as you know the basic reason for this war is because Israel has been "taking" lands that belnog to the arabs.

1947: US votes for two countries in this land one for the Jews the other for the Palasines, Jerusalem stays in the UN's hands.

1948: Israel is announced

1948: on the same day Arab nations start a war against us, the task is to destroy Israel. Migh I add that Israel didn't have the lands of the arabs at that time.

Isreal one day old manages to win the war at then end at 1949, and terrtory expands for protection.

1969 Arabs attack us again. This time they lose after six days and we win a nice ammount of land. Many arabs run away others stay and become "Israelians" till this day.

I must say again the reason for that war was again to destroy Israel.

1973: while Israel was in a holyday, where half the army is disabled Arabs attack again, reason, to destroy Israel AGAIN. this time Israel doesn't win but doesn't loose. both sides loose alot of people.

so that was the 3rd time Israel is being assulted for the reason that the Arabs believe we shouldn't be in that land, well UN says so and as much as I don't believe bible crap the bible says so as well (just to add to my point..).

although Israel had the chance in 69 to take jordan Suria and Lebanon we didn't, we retreted to a place that insures our safty.

ok years pass, Yasser Araft moves to Gaze strip.

Israel makes peace with Egypt and jordan and an agreement with the Palastines that we recognize the Rashut.

we agree to give the Palastines land, they want more, they want Jerusalem and some other places. meanwhile we get attacked in Lebannon so we move our armys into Lebannon to the front line where we have a lot of fights with the Hisbollah -we did that because they were shooting rockets at citys.

Yaser Arrafat has been in the head of Palastine after being recognized by 5 Israeli leaders which none of them could get into an agreement with Arafat. They were all from all sides of the Israelian political groups. Yitzchak Rabin, Peres, Barak, Netanyaho and Sharon, well all of them couldn't talk to Arafat because he belives that he could get more with power. Well Israel can not agree to that, we can not give things to people who use power on us, we agreen to give alot of places of our land and yet they want more. they also want us to allow millions of arabs to come back here while us jews are only 5 million, we can not allow that it's to great of risk.

anyway my point is, in the past 50+ years of Isreal and even before Israel agreed to give and give as long as it's not in risk, instead the Arabs attacked and attacked and attacked. we can't trust their leadership that tried to wipe us off the face of the earth when they had more powers and we can not give them 100% of our land.

as for the stupid argument that they have about being here first... hmm they should read books, they are the ones who have occupied the land and pretty much kicked us out of it...

and another thing, war is not fun to both the sides, what differs Israel from Palastine is that we do not tie bombs to 16 year old kids or kill kids at their birthday partys. we do the minimum damage that also allows us to protect ourselvs and there is no reason to deny it from us.

And one last point, the poor Palastines forget to tell the worl how we pay for everything for them, before we came they lived upto 40 years now to 75 (that is if they don't kill some jews while at it) we give them electricity water and yeah we gave them the weapons that they were supposed to use as protection and use it to kill us as well as weapons they brin ileagaly, and how about their peace keeping coops that linched three of our men... I'm sure they keep the law...

Anyway, anyone is intitled for his opinion but this war is very deep and unless you know all the facts (which I don't know all of them) none of us should judge for one side... so open a history book and read :) then choose sides..

BTW Israel is no 3d world county... ICQ, Checkpoint, Vimatix and many more nice things came from this country which usualy don't come from third world countrys...

ooo.

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Some interesting bits:

In a recent TV discussion with a Palestine representative, upon being cornered with questions about why Palestinians have been committing suicide and blowing them selves up "brainlessly" (as one poster so eloquently put it), the representative responded with quite a good line that did a nice job of leaving the questioners speechless for a few seconds. It was something like, "Was it not the Americans who coined the phrase, 'Give me liberty or give me death'?" A lot of people in Palestine just want a place to live in peace, but are denied that right. Israel sits there and won't even give up the Gaza strip, which they aren't even really using for anything but a "buffer" zone. I have no real bias in the issue, and I'm of a mind to think both sides are behaving like little boys in this, but Israel is the spoiled brat here, and I got somewhat of a sadistic joy when I heard about how angry the Vatican was at Israel for the nativity ruckus recently.

Sharon is a proven war criminal who has been quoted as basically saying the western world was Israel's bitch. Ironically, Arafat used to be a friend to the presidents of America. Put a Bush in the office, though, eh.

This is from a post on another board I frequent:

----------------------------------

By Charley Reese

The Orlando Sentinel

-----------------------------------------------

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?

Answer: Israel.

-------

Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?

A: Israel.

---------

Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?

A: Israel.

--------

Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?

A: Israel.

--------

Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?

A: Israel.

------

Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors?

A: Israel.

---------

Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?

A: Israel.

--------

Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?

A: Israel.

----------

Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?

A: Israel.

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Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?

A: Israel.

-------

Q: What country is the United States threatening to bomb because "U.N. Security Council resolutions must be obeyed?"

A: Iraq

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Arafat is also a "war" criminal... You can't forget that he was in PLO which was a terrorist organisation a way back. And he has NEVER tried to stop the terrorist bombing...

You are right that Sharon has done some very terrible stuff and is most likely a war criminal.

The worst thing to do is to start blaming one side for something both sides does, and that is what is being done in the media in a lot of countries (including were I come from, sweden)

The problem is that there is no one that are capable of leading the palestinian people, Arafat don't have the power to do so but still hangs on to the "power" as a true dictator... And no it isn't because he is beign in house arrest even before he had no power to stop the terrorist bombing, at least what you have noticed.. But then again he has never really tried.

And you can almost call it a war.. In theory all Israel has got to do to call it a war is to accept Palestina as a country which UN has a long time back...

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First of all, Bush needs to take back our weapons(M16-A1, SAW-249, M1-Bradlys, F-15, and our F-16's). Also any US Military Academy Trained Israeli soldier needs to be brought up on war crimes. There are rules of engagement that are being broken everyday by Israel. As for one of them You may not Target Churches, or Civilians (Women and Children). My brother and his unit are gearing up to go over there, I say damn to that look at Korea and how long we've been there to keep those children apart. Kids stupid childish people is what I think of people who fight for no damn good reason. 9-11 should have showed the world there are bigger problems that who controls some land.

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Originally posted by nant

WOW.

Yazoo, do you know why there was a bombing today?? Because we left two cities. Do you know where from it came?! FROM THOSE TWO CITIES.

If we would not have check points and road blocks, do you have any idea how many people would die? Policemen and soldiers die in those road blocks and check points to save life!!

About these two things, you are truely clueless.

You only have yourselves to blame. This all reminds me of South Africa before the fall of apartheid with a minority oppressing a majority and the majority fighting back the only way they know how.

P.S.

In the last 15 months there have been far more innocent Palestinians killed than Israelis. It is almost a 4 to 1 ratio, so the Israeli claim of this being self-defence is a load.

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The war in the Middle East has turned into a war of propaganda and unfortunately far too many people (including countries it seems) are incapable of looking at what is actually happening and just listening to what is being said. As it happens, I spent last week staying with the guy who engineered the Irish peace process (currently the Irish ambassador to Northern Ireland). We spent most of the week watching pretty much every news channel available - from CNN, through NBC, Sky News, BBC, RTE, etc... It was interesting to see what points he picked up on as we watched the various spins that were put on things - it turns out that Joshie watched some of the same programmes as we did. What he hasn't picked up on was that the Palestinian representative suggesting that people prefer Liberty to Death was responding to a question about Mr. Arafat's policy on sending suicide bombers to fight a war - his response was to say that the young people that blow themselves up in the streets and on buses were trying to claim liberty for their people. What he did not mention at all was that Arafat was not sending the bombers.

Later on Sunday on MSNBC (I think it was Meet the Press), another Palestinian spokesman did a similar thing with a question about Arafat refusing to publically state that the bombings were not an official Palestinian response - he said that the Palestinians were fighting for their freedom. The instant response of my companion (and myself) was that the spokesman was saying that the bombing were an official act.

At the moment, Israel has justified security concerns - during their movements in Qalqilya and Tulkarm, Israeli forces claim they found not only a number of suspected terrorists, but far more disturbingly, a large collection of Israeli army uniforms for use in disguising potential bombers. As today's events have shown, pulling back from the cities resulted in another attack after 4 or 5 days of relative calm. Strategically, Israel has no choice but to limit the movements of everybody in the country - Palestinians and Israelis alike are mostly trapped in their homes from the dual fears of being on the street.

Moving to the propaganda issues of the conflict - European news agencies seem to be fond of suggesting that Israeli's are killing large amounts of Palestinian children. When they are innocent, this is a deplorable action. However, when those children have been armed by Palestinian militia groups and are firing on soldiers, there isn't much other action that can be taken. Also, let it not be forgotten that Israel's army is just a collection of conscripted 18 and 19 year olds - well trained, I'll grant you, but still young. Don't get me wrong - some of the actions Israel has taken have been out of proportion with the events that caused them, but no general - Israeli or otherwise - would willingly send his own, his friends and his neighbours children to an unnecessary conflict if he could avoid it...

The conflict in the Middle East is at the moment a stalemate. And it's a stalemate because neither side will (or can) back down from the engagements. But it does not have to be a stalemate - the amount of peace offers that have been declined (unilaterally by the Palestinians, interestingly enough) have been immense - everything from the original Partition Plan (which, was turned down by everyone apart from the Israeli's, though the Palestinians now want to implement it), through to the recent plan proposed by the Arab world (which was de-railed by another suicide bombing). All that needs to happen is people need to sit down and talk. And it can happen - the biggest propaganda triumph of the conflict has been the claim by the Palestinians that the suicide bombings are an act of desparation by a people with no other choice. Ghandi repeatedly showed that non-violent protests DO work, but the Palestinians are choosing to fight. As my friend in Ireland pointed out - it's looking more and more that the Palestinians don't just want a homeland, since they could have taken one at any point and then argued about borders, but that they want to win it in blood and that it should be the blood of the Israeli's...

Okay, I realise that the argument is fairly one sided - there are plenty of legitimate points for the Palestinian side too. But since the media around Europe has largely ignored these, I figure I should put some perspective into things...

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IMO, Israel should back off attacking Palestinian.

Please end the war....peaceful is wonderful.

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As my friend in Ireland pointed out - it's looking more and more that the Palestinians don't just want a homeland, since they could have taken one at any point and then argued about borders, but that they want to win it in blood and that it should be the blood of the Israeli's...

Exactly. Arafat should stop all the suicide bombers from blowing themselves up and try to negotiate a peace agreement with Israel. Israel should back down and try to do likewise, and the United States should stay out of it.

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Originally posted by codyg11

and the United States should stay out of it.

Yes, I hope we do. I don't want my brother getting shot or blown up by some nut job from either side. He called use two weeks ago though and said that his unit and others might be going there to make a line between them. :(

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Israel wouldn't have come in the Palastine lands in the first place if they havn't attacked us. they can't attack us and kill us and expect not to be punnished by it.

If you have watched the latest new the Islamic Party Jihad just announced that if US- Israel want peace we should go back to russia and othe euro countries we came from... yeah some peace they want, If you think Arafat is any better then you are wrong. we handed them peace in almost every term we could give they didn't want it instead they tried to get some more with using power and the lowest kind of power.. killing kids... don't expect Israel to shut up anymore, it has come to the point that we have at least one dead every day. We are a free country and just like as the US didn't shutup about the september 11th, Israel shouldn't shut up for 50 years of terrorism and 50 more before Israel was declared.

As for the lands. I do agree most of the places should go back to the arabs but not this way. they should sit at a table and talk and they should remmeber that we live here as well and they should also respect our teretory and needs.

Now as much as I like the US and all that (and this goes to other countries as wll) what about the lands that don't belong to you.. hmmm going back part of US belongs to Mexico and well Indians.... but thats in the past, but you see US just didn't have the limits we have when it comes to having to do what other countries tell us... and again this is not to slam US or something just a point to think of, I mean really other then giving back Gaza Strip Yehuda and Shomron Israel doesn't owe anything to them and we have offerd both and more to them, they just want everything...

as for the 4 to 1 odds about killings most of them are not innocent but people who are part of Terror organizations.. We do Not Kill People For The Heck Of It!

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Why would you bring up a topic like this? I just don't see the point besides stirring up a hornet's nest. Anyways...

As an American... err... I should say a United States citizen who has had Jewish and Arab friends I can understand both sides of this conflict. This is not a conflict that has only been around for a century or so, in fact it might be said it has been around for thousands of years, going all the way back to biblical times. In reference to the Christian Bible, what is happening is written in the very pages of that holy book. In fact some of Isreal's reason/justification for doing what they have done recently has been some of the context of passages in the Bible. This conflict is more than a political one, it is also a religious and social one.

The Palestinians, and indeed Arabs in general, are living in troubled times for their culture and beliefs. The live in a time where the most influential country, the US, has society (as a whole) lacking of certain morals (or at least it appears that way). The majority live in poverty and are torn between the physical callings of mortal wealth and objects, and the spiritual wealth promised by their faith (the same promised by the Christian faith, and indeed of sorts by many others). They are a people easily "enticed" by the promises of a few (think Osama Bin Laden), if this means that they can be of use, can serve Allah, and can possibly obtain some physical wealth in the interim until their spiritual wealth is granted.

The Arab people are, when educated, some of the smartest people in this world, and even more than that they are very dedicated and hard working. So what makes these people trade their lives in just to perform such a ghastly act as a suicide bombing? I wouldn't answer that if I could, that would require that I have lived through what they may have and felt the emotions they have felt. However I believe it to be an act of despair, a horrendous and saddening one.

Isreal can be said to be simple retaliating against these bombings, and other acts of terrorism. This may be true, however they do so by destroying more than the lives and homes of terrorists, they do so to those of everyday Arabs. They use military force to attack the Palestinians as a whole because of terrorists. This is the problem. Neither innocent Palestinians or Isrealis, nor Arabs or Jews should be blamed or persecuted for the actions of their leaders and terrorists.

This is a conflict that I'm a afraid will not have an ending soon, and if it does, it will not be a "happy" one. I know I've made this sound like Isreal is entirely at fault, they aren't, they do have legitimate concerns. As it stands both sides are at fault, but most people will never realize that through the eyes of the media, especially the US media whom seems to favor Isreal. And why not, as a largely Chrisitan (this is debatable but bear with me) nation we have ties to the Jewish one of Isreal. However, for those of use who are Christians, that relationship will not end happily, as we should already know.

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Just one thing! If it wasn't for the US and Canadian forces back in WWII there would be no Israel, and most of your countries over there would be speaking german. So you see we do have say in what's going on, and when you tell our President that he needs to back out - you are wrong. Bush is unlike the last three numb bunnies we have had for President, this guy actualy doesn't back down. (I'm glad the guy I voted for lost. 'Gore' would not be as tuff as Bush has been. Even more strange is Bush Sr. didn't even have the balls that his son has.)

::No more of this thread for me, I must go calm down::

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I'm afriad that I agree that this can't end well. It may subside again with peace agreements etc, but in a situation like this that hardly ends the issue. With a conflict based on beliefs more than politics, it may go on forever until one side is silenced or put into submission by the other. Chances are this will get bloodier, before it gets 'better.'

As far as US involvement is concerned, I have mixed feelings. If we could help to cool down the conflict we should, but in a purely diplomatic fashion...e.g. no tanks. I don't think we can truely understand what it is like to live over there, and 'choosing' a side will make more enemies than we need right now.

That just my thoughts from a casual observer position.

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Isreal can be said to be simple retaliating against these bombings, and other acts of terrorism. This may be true, however they do so by destroying more than the lives and homes of terrorists, they do so to those of everyday Arabs. They use military force to attack the Palestinians as a whole because of terrorists. This is the problem. Neither innocent Palestinians or Isrealis, nor Arabs or Jews should be blamed or persecuted for the actions of their leaders and terrorists.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what the US has just done in Afghanistan? Holding a regime that condones terrorism responsible for it's actions. That action was backed by a large majority of Western governments (with military force). Surely condemming a similar action against a different regime that supports terrorism is sheer hypocrisy...
Just one thing! If it wasn't for the US and Canadian forces back in WWII there would be no Israel, and most of your countries over there would be speaking german.

Umm... I think Hollywood may have been a little over-active in your history education. As it happens, the Russians liberated a large majority of the concentration and extermination camps and Israel was largely a result of actions both by Lord Balfour in Britain, the Zionist Fedaration (based mostly in Europe) and large amounts of support from other European nations...

As for how much the US contributed to victory in WW2, that's a large debate in itself...

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Originally posted by ooo

As for the lands. I do agree most of the places should go back to the arabs but not this way. they should sit at a table and talk and they should remmeber that we live here as well and they should also respect our teretory and needs.

Now as much as I like the US and all that (and this goes to other countries as wll) what about the lands that don't belong to you.. hmmm going back part of US belongs to Mexico and well Indians.... but thats in the past, but you see US just didn't have the limits we have when it comes to having to do what other countries tell us...

Very true. I find it ironic that the US can be so hypocritical sometimes about other countries taking over others, or one group wipping out another. The US, along with England, are two of the biggest offenders when it comes to this. I am proud to be a US citizen, but I am ashamed of some of the things this country has done in the past, especially to the natives of America (I won't call them Indians as that in itself is an insult to them). As a person of Irish and Scottish descent, I am also aware of how the American natives may have felt (I can never claim empathy, only awareness and sympathy) during the British invasions and occupations. As a US citizen again I also know what it feels like to want revenge for an act of terrorism, to want to retaliate against the aggressors.

In the end this is not a one sided issue, and on both sides innocent people are dying. We live in a time of great technology and innovations, and yet we are still fighting centuries old wars and battles. As much as we may try to hide or ignore it, the nature of man is defense and aggression, just as it is in the nature of many of our animal counterparts.

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I'm afriad that I agree that this can't end well. It may subside again with peace agreements etc, but in a situation like this that hardly ends the issue. With a conflict based on beliefs more than politics, it may go on forever until one side is silenced or put into submission by the other. Chances are this will get bloodier, before it gets 'better.'

On the other hand, the situation in Northern Ireland has calmed down immensely as a result of good will on both sides and successful negotiation and that is another conflict that has religion at its root, rather than politics...

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On the other hand, the situation in Northern Ireland has calmed down immensely as a result of good will on both sides and successful negotiation and that is another conflict that has religion at its root, rather than politics...

I hope that can happen in this situation also.

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Originally posted by danshome

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that exactly what the US has just done in Afghanistan? Holding a regime that condones terrorism responsible for it's actions. That action was backed by a large majority of Western governments (with military force). Surely condemming a similar action against a different regime that supports terrorism is sheer hypocrisy...

I was referring to actions against the Palestinian people as a whole. The US actions against Afghanistan were aimed directly at terrorists, and avoided civilians as well as they could (though not well enough, as is always the case in war, saddly).

However Isreal, in its attempt to destroy a few terrorists holed up somewhere, can do alot more destruction (just look at all the innocents harmed during the actions). I should have worded it a little better, but in Afghanistan we were fighting against an army, another military.

Edit: Let me just say that I'm not trying to make the suicide bombings sound any less horrific, they are something that I strongly disagree with.

Originally posted by danshome

Umm... I think Hollywood may have been a little over-active in your history education. As it happens, the Russians liberated a large majority of the concentration and extermination camps and Israel was largely a result of actions both by Lord Balfour in Britain, the Zionist Fedaration (based mostly in Europe) and large amounts of support from other European nations...

As for how much the US contributed to victory in WW2, that's a large debate in itself...

Not to diminish the actions and bravery of others in the war, but it was being largely lost before the US and Canada entered the war. However I agree that others did alot to fight against the Axis invasions, resulting in a lot of lost lives on the Allied side. Let's not diminish the actions of any involved by saying that one country did more than another, as none of here could ever say that (unless you were there, but even there you really couldn't). It was a massively joint effort that let's just hope we never have to repeat.

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First of all, I am amazed at the amount interest our little looser insignificant third-world country has stirred among a fine line of such concerned, peaceful people with an obviously well overgrown social conscience.

And how mighty advanced, progressive and benevolent of you, to also point out that, it is not our fault we are economically retarded. This, talking about a country, who's developing weapons for the US, and who's patented technological methods such as- ADSL. Who's leading in biotechnology and computers. Who's the only western democratic country in the region, which is in 19th place in produce per person from over 200 countries around the world. A country, which over the short time of around 6-7 years ,has accepted and absorbed around 1 million new-comers in a total population of 4 million( 25% of its whole population), while America-the pillar of economical progress -cant even deal with its Hispanic minorities,(not to mention its other minorities) and part of them aren?t even citizens.

So much for Israel being a third world country ...

Maybe we haven?t quite sunk in a huge incorporated -beer, synthetic cheese splattered- couch yet, but at least, as such a third world country , we have the pleasure to NOT enjoy social benefits, equaling primitive 19th century beginning of the industrial revolution- such as in the US.

And now...as for the Palestinian/ Israeli conflict and the many eager little humanists here, raising their self-righteous little heads all of a sudden, to protect the underdog, where ever he might be.

You should be ashamed of yourselves, for even suggesting, what Israel is doing is anything close to what the Nazis did! Anyone who's looked at one picture/photo from the holocaust , who has the slightest idea of what the Germans did during the WW2, cannot in a sound mind compare!

The holocaust wasn?t singled out as an historical even for nothing. Its not remembered and thought, so that patronizing, pretentious pseudo-humanists could fit "Nazi" in every second sentence. It wasn?t singled out because of the brutality with which Jews were murdered, but because of the systematic way, the mechanization in which those 6 million PEACEFUL civilians in their OWN countries- were slaughtered. Because of the doctrine of hatrate which perpetuated that absolute eradication.

In my personal opinion, this vulgar abuse of the holocaust, trivializes and diminishes the atrocity and monstrosity, which the holocaust was, and is simply a new breed of anti-Semitism.

As to Israel's "brutal" military assault upon the Palestinians in the recent operation. Israel is a sovern state. It has the full right to protect itself against a growing infrastructure of terror, rising against it, and it will not apologize for that.

If we really wanted to kill innocent Palestinians by the dozens like, most of you claim, or like the press trumpets, Israel would've prepared an air-strike massively bombing and destroying everything at site -just like the US did in Afghanistan,with no regard to civilians and human lives.

Instead Israel has entered with land troops, risking more casualties so that, only exact areas would be hit, and there would be minimal civilian loss.

I wonder why nobody feels such deep overwhelming sympathy towards the hundreds of innocent Israeli civilians, who got killed in terrorist bombings, or is it only when World Trade Centers get blown, that it matters and attacks are justified?

I wonder why you don?t talk about the endless amounts of weapons which were found inside Arafat headquarters and all around the occupied cities.

I know, CNN has recently reported, that Palestinians claim those weapons shown for display are those of the Palestinian police.

Weapons given to the Palestinian police are licensed and registered, and there were only about a thousands. They certainly do not include RPGs, missiles, Tommy-guns, and stolen from the IDF, night vision goggles.

Israel is doing all this because it simply has no other choice.

A political solution to the problem was offered to Arafat well beyond his imagination. He was offered all of the territories back, including the division of Jerusalem -in the camp David negotiations- and he refused that offer. I wonder why...

So please...spare these pretentious, pseudo-humanist, ill-informed opinions. Or at least get a clue before you voice one.

(I apologize for not refering to individual quotes and reposnding to the sum of replies posted.)

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Originally posted by Drinkrbell

First of all, I am amazed at the amount interest our little looser insignificant third-world country has stirred among a fine line of such concerned, peaceful people with an obviously well overgrown social conscience...

Very well said. I'm not sure if any of this was directed to any of my posts, however some of it sounds that way.

I may have missed the part about any saying Isreal is a "looser" country and it is "economically retarded". Indeed I would think quite the opposite. I for one am fully aware of the technological contributions Isreal has made.

In regards to the "killing innocent Palestinians" bit, I know some of my posts may have sounded like I was saying that, however I was simply referring the the collateral (I hate that word when referring to people) damage and human lives lost during some of the military actions. Not that the attacks against Isreal are any less horrific.

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Drinkrbell ok, just to make a point then..

If I am a wife beater, does the intensity of my beating on my wife make the situation any less disturbing?

Nobody can compare the Nazis to the situation in the middle east, OK.. but ANY persecution is as bad as another.

don't try to tell me that when you hit someone, it's not so bad because someone else hit alot harder. thats a poor excuse.

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