Your thoughts of the Israel-Palestine Conflict


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mort although I can see your reasons and very much sympathise with some of what you say I don't think anything is black or white. Everything in life is one of a infinite different shades of grey. I'm interested why you think the creation of Israel was a mistake, to be honest I do not know much of the history and am interested in why you think this. Finally, I do not think anyone deserves death no matter what they do. Even if they kill 1000s of other people.

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Originally posted by ooo

I don't like Bush and I didn't vote for him yet I don't think he should be changed becaause he was voted and won.

There are still small debates of whether or not Bush actually won the election vs. Gore, although he probably won, but by a small margin.

You are right about the Palestinians: if they are offered their land they will just want more ane more.

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The Israelis have always neen irrational when it comes to this land which they believe is their Promised Land by their god. There is even an Israeli group which is trying to claim that they've ALWAYS been there. That there were no Canaanites there. They are so fanatical that they are even willing to say that their entire history is a lie. All of this nonsense over a sandpit.

I've got a really great idea... why don't we take part of Uganda and put all the Palestinians in it - then everyone's happy. They get a country bigger than Israel and no one worries at all...

Hmm... maybe the background to that is a little TOO subtle...

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I know what you mean. I recently got banned from a discussion board because of this issue and I wasn't being irrational either. They were afraid of offending the Jews on the board. That ANYONE who says anything against the policies of Israel is automatically labelled a bigot, a racists, or an anti-semite.

It seems that many will excuse the Israelis whatever they do just because of their history of being persecuted as Jews. I keep saying that the Israelis should know better than to use these tactics because of the evil which can and is resulting. There MUST be some Israelis which realize just how naive Sharon in being if he believes that this action will deter the Palestinians at all. If anything it will give the Palestinians more cause to send in more suicide bombers.

The only way to stop them short of the Israelis leaving all of the occupied territories is to kill all of the Palestinians to the last man, woman, and child. To commit genocide, otherwise they are doing nothing at all, but turning the world against them and showing them for the hypocrits they are.

Please tell me you're not advocating genocide in that last comment...

Anyway, there's a big difference between Israeli (or Israelite) and Jew - Israel, while being a Jewish state and predominantly Jewish, does have a large Arab population (apart from the Palestinians) and has recently absorbed large amounts of ethnic (non Jewish) Russians, as well as a multitude of other cultures. There is a big difference between criticising Israel and hating Jews. On the other hand, it's very easy (and foolish) to equate the two, which is why people get banned - by blurring the line and then jumping up and down on it.... If you don't like Israeli policies, then fine. If (for some irrational reason) you hate a country, good for you - I'm not particuarly fond of France. If you hate Israel because you hate Jews, or vice versa, then I'll take my chances and call you a racist.

As for whether the current action will deter suicide bombings, you have to understand the Middle Eastern mindset - because the way that most people in the area think is, to some extent, different from the ways that you might consider in the US or in Europe. For Israel to pull out of the territories is NOT going to stop the bombings - rather, it's a sign that Israel is bowing to international pressure and that the bombings are being successful. Thus, bombings increase, not least because there is no obstacles between the cities with the potential bombers and their targets. If Israel stays in the area, it is able to control what happens in terms of transportation and to track down any cells that may be operating, whilst at the same time holding a card that can be played as soon as Arafat denounces the terrorist acts (which, incidentally, would probably end his leadership) - the land can be returned and Israel can pull back and pave the way for a more permanent settlement. Operationally, Israel CANNOT pull back - it would be extremely foolish for them to do so (and this morning's actions only serve to emphasise that fact).

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Then the people of Uganda would retailate to the Arabs. The Arabs would not want to leave their homeland, though.

Thought people might miss that one - sending the Jews to Uganda was the Arab world's suggestion in 1947 when the UN got around to declaring the state of Israel... (hence the irony)

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before anyone talks about the camp david accords, lets get one thing straight.. Arafat refused the final resolution that was put up by Barak and Clinton, he refused it because his own representatives who now Israel believe should replace Arafat said that the people of palestine wouldnt accept because it would still have 5 percent of the current 15 percent of the Israel IDF force in Palestinian area`s and the settlements would not stop, Israels proposal was that settlements are according to Israel people wishes if they want to live there but Arafat did not accept it because he did not want ANY settlements, because they werent 1-2 houses, it was a whole neighbourhood being built like 10-15 houses a settlements in a Palestinian land where Palestinians said if they want to settle here they would have to settle among the Palestinian population but that notion Barak or nETenyahu certainly didnt accept,

Barak kept on pressuring Arafat but Arafat refused these because his own people would turn against him and a even worse leader would come, instead he said keep further talks going and they did behind closed doors till December 2000 until when Sharon took 250 of his supporters to a march to a temple which the palestinians and thier leaders said they SHOULD not go because the radicals would make the situation out of control but he still did and that started the Intafada (perseverence) , upon the start of the Intafada 47 palestinians were killed because the Netenyahu and Barak said that Palestinians didnt want peace even at the time they were still talking behind closed doors, 47 Palestinian civilians killed before 1 Israeli soldier was killed which provoked Netenyahu who was a right winger and the new Prime minister to go into the Palestinian area`s which resulted in 82 civilians dying which started the emergence of everyday suicide bombings.

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Hmm... The Palestinian representatives have never been clear on why Arafat would not accept the Camp David accords. Over the past week, their replies to the question on several tv shows (see my post way, way earlier) has been "Because we were only offered 87% of the West Bank", "Because we were only offered 80% of the West Bank", "Because we were offered all of the West Bank and Gaza but we were not offered a connection between the two" and "Because we could not have our capital in Jerusalem". Apart from the fact that not one of the responses I've heard so far to the same question have actually been the same, not once has anyone mentioned anything about the settlements, or about the soldiers. It could be that you're right and those were the reasons - but until there's consistency in the answers from the Palestinians then I'll remain a little skeptical...

As for the start of the current Intifada, isn't it interesting that a day after Sharon decides to visit a certain temple (admittedly a particularly ill-advised move), thousands of rifles and machine guns suddenly appear in the hands of Palestinian militia? Perhaps it's a coincidence and not at all planned... As for the death figures, well... Israel's army is trained. The Palestinians were sending men and children to fight (and using those children to hide the shooters, I might add - I always thought it was sick that the BBC kept reporting on another child being killed with no mention that that child was both holding a gun and had an adult hiding behind him...)

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facts:

1. Palestinians dont like Arafat , but they dont have a moderate option to replace him

2. Sharon is wanted in Belgium, holland, and poland as a war crime criminal

3. In July 2001, Israel was named as a racist state but it couldnt be put in a resolution because United states as well as India were the only countries to refute it and US veto`d it before it made the bill

4. After the 1967 war more than 5 million refugees went to other arab countries driven out of what is now called Israel, that number as grown to 11 million which is nearly the population of all jews in the US

5. Hamas and Islamic Jehad are condoned by Iraqs regime and Syria, but they are condemned by Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia , turkey and UAE, the rest of the middle eastern countriessay they are bad but justified.

6. 88 percent of americans support Israel fully

7. 92 percent of Arabs support Palestinian people fully

8. 97 percent of UN countries are against the Israeli policy and thier occupation

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which started the emergence of everyday suicide bombings.

Oh, and there were suicide bombs a long time before that. It's just that the current intifada has "legitimized" them under the Palestinian authority. Now they're targeted, rather than just being random sick violence...

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4. After the 1967 war more than 5 million refugees went to other arab countries driven out of what is now called Israel, that number as grown to 11 million which is nearly the population of all jews in the US
Shall we remember who started that war? Oh, it was the surrounding Arab states attacking Israel. How wholly unlike 1948 and 1973... It must have been unique in the history of Israel...
5. Hamas and Islamic Jehad are condoned by Iraqs regime and Syria, but they are condemned by Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia , turkey and UAE, the rest of the middle eastern countriessay they are bad but justified.

I suppose the suicide bombs are okay if they're justified by being in Israel...

6. 88 percent of americans support Israel fully

7. 92 percent of Arabs support Palestinian people fully

Useful figures - I wonder how many of the surrounding Arab countries would take in the Palestinian refugees and how many would send them away as fast as they've could. Syria, Iraq and Lebanon are all notoriously grateful for their Kurdish refugees...

8. 97 percent of UN countries are against the Israeli policy and thier occupation

Well at least the propaganda machine is working properly. The occupation isn't a good thing. No one has said it's a good thing. It's just a necessary thing. And it won't stop while there is terrorism in Israel.

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Originally posted by danshome

Hmm... The Palestinian representatives have never been clear on why Arafat would not accept the Camp David accords. Over the past week, their replies to the question on several tv shows (see my post way, way earlier) has been "Because we were only offered 87% of the West Bank", "Because we were only offered 80% of the West Bank", "Because we were offered all of the West Bank and Gaza but we were not offered a connection between the two" and "Because we could not have our capital in Jerusalem". Apart from the fact that not one of the responses I've heard so far to the same question have actually been the same, not once has anyone mentioned anything about the settlements, or about the soldiers. It could be that you're right and those were the reasons - but until there's consistency in the answers from the Palestinians then I'll remain a little skeptical...

As for the start of the current Intifada, isn't it interesting that a day after Sharon decides to visit a certain temple (admittedly a particularly ill-advised move), thousands of rifles and machine guns suddenly appear in the hands of Palestinian militia? Perhaps it's a coincidence and not at all planned... As for the death figures, well... Israel's army is trained. The Palestinians were sending men and children to fight (and using those children to hide the shooters, I might add - I always thought it was sick that the BBC kept reporting on another child being killed with no mention that that child was both holding a gun and had an adult hiding behind him...)

one from israel says we should be even more aggressive militarily, one says that we should demolish the PLO for good and others say that we should negotiate with PLO after military encursion, just like the Palestinians have said the main reason is oppression and occupation and settlements but inconsistant how many, same goes for Israelis saying a military solution or that we will never return to 1967 borders are consistent but what happens after that is inconsistent, i watch bbc, cnn, fox news and tv i from UK and i have never heard of seen any under 16 as a suicider( under 16 is viewed by most as a child), as i said in my other post, there are 5-6 percent who are hawks and radicals who take pictures of palestinian children with guns showing that even children are willing to fight but be realistic, they cant fight, these are the very radicals who i catogeries as the insane group and the ones who WILL kill arafat or any other leader who dont do as they say, namely they are Hamas and Islamic Jehad people

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Originally posted by ooo

well Israel was more then willing to give back the land but they wanted all of it, how you ask, by klling us so we are fighting for our lives and not only our land.

as for placing Arafat and Sharon.

What the hell are you talking about ?!

Israel is democracy, Sharon was voted - I didn't vote for him and I don't like him. but who are you and who am I to say that he should be replaced. I don't like Bush and I didn't vote for him yet I don't think he should be changed becaause he was voted and won. Arafat is another story.

also 5 Israeli leaders tried to make peace with Arafat none have made it because he was unwilling to get to the middle he wanted it all.

From what I've heard is that that wasn't exactly true.

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the rules of war and the rules of resolve is that when u invade an area, according to UN resulotion in 1948, you HAVE to give the land back, now this is a stalemate because Arab countries will only recognise Israel now that if they return to the 1967 borders and Israel has admitely said that it wont ever return to the 1967 borders, something the UN has asked them according to the UN resolution in 1948, it is true that Arab countries attacked Israel but u also know who had the stronger army, arab countries retreated in 6 days, i think thats a modern day world record of retreat because of the might of the Israeli army, but remember they have never attacked it since, maybe because of the fact thier army is weak but MOST because of the fact that this is 2002, a modern age where politics comes before war.

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Originally posted by danshome

Please tell me you're not advocating genocide in that last comment...

No, of course I'm not advocating genocide. I'm only stating that the only way that the Israelis can ensure that the Palestinians stop fighting back is to exterminate them since the Israelis are too unwilling to leave the occupied territories.

Anyway, there's a big difference between Israeli (or Israelite) and Jew - Israel, while being a Jewish state and predominantly Jewish, does have a large Arab population (apart from the Palestinians) and has recently absorbed large amounts of ethnic (non Jewish) Russians, as well as a multitude of other cultures. There is a big difference between criticising Israel and hating Jews. On the other hand, it's very easy (and foolish) to equate the two, which is why people get banned - by blurring the line and then jumping up and down on it.... If you don't like Israeli policies, then fine. If (for some irrational reason) you hate a country, good for you - I'm not particuarly fond of France. If you hate Israel because you hate Jews, or vice versa, then I'll take my chances and call you a racist.

I got banned because they didn't know the differance, not I.

As for whether the current action will deter suicide bombings, you have to understand the Middle Eastern mindset - because the way that most people in the area think is, to some extent, different from the ways that you might consider in the US or in Europe.

It isn't all that different from European thinking, espceially Eastern Europe where they also are all too willing to murder each other over land.

For Israel to pull out of the territories is NOT going to stop the bombings - rather, it's a sign that Israel is bowing to international pressure and that the bombings are being successful. Thus, bombings increase, not least because there is no obstacles between the cities with the potential bombers and their targets. If Israel stays in the area, it is able to control what happens in terms of transportation and to track down any cells that may be operating, whilst at the same time holding a card that can be played as soon as Arafat denounces the terrorist acts (which, incidentally, would probably end his leadership) - the land can be returned and Israel can pull back and pave the way for a more permanent settlement. Operationally, Israel CANNOT pull back - it would be extremely foolish for them to do so (and this morning's actions only serve to emphasise that fact).

In other words they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They only have themselves to blame for much of this.

They aren't doing a very good job of controlling the movements of the suicide bombers at all. Israel is an armed camp and they still manage to get their targets with ease. Tanks and gunships are not a very good deterant it seems.

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one from israel says we should be even more aggressive militarily, one says that we should demolish the PLO for good and others say that we should negotiate with PLO after military encursion, just like the Palestinians have said the main reason is oppression and occupation and settlements but inconsistant how many, same goes for Israelis saying a military solution or that we will never return to 1967 borders are consistent but what happens after that is inconsistent
There's a difference between a statement of intent (which is what you're talking about with potential action), which could be a personal statement, and a statement of fact (as in why Arafat declined the Camp David peace agreements). It might also be worth pointing out that he also hasn't said why he has rejected the other offers put forward. Unfortunately, the last one was derailed by somebody (we might wonder who) sending a suicide bomber into Israel...
i watch bbc, cnn, fox news and tv i from UK and i have never heard of seen any under 16 as a suicider( under 16 is viewed by most as a child)

I'm sorry - you've misunderstood me. I didn't mean that there have been children suicide bombers, but rather there have been children fighting in armed conflicts with soldiers.

as i said in my other post, there are 5-6 percent who are hawks and radicals who take pictures of palestinian children with guns showing that even children are willing to fight but be realistic, they cant fight, these are the very radicals who i catogeries as the insane group and the ones who WILL kill arafat or any other leader who dont do as they say, namely they are Hamas and Islamic Jehad people

Well, I've seen plenty of photos of children holding weapons (and even firing weapons at soldiers. All of which are from various members of the associated press. As for whether they can fight or not, obviously they can't. The point of children being given weapons is two fold 1) Firstly it suggests to other nations that the situation is desperate enough for even children to take up arms and 2) When children fire upon soldiers, or (far far worse) are used as human shields for militia fighters, the soldiers they are firing upon have no choice (however distasteful) but to return fire. And because those children are not trained, they invariably get killed - at which point they are photographed and distributed around the various press agencies as another massacre by the israeli army. Unfortunately, Palestinian children have been sacrificed by militia groups as a PR stunt - horrible to think about, but unfortunately true...

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You talking here B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Palastin hideing behinde CNN they r using it like a weapon. Palastin showing images of israel attacking them but why israel attacking palastin they wnot show becose then all the world will see what wrealy palastin are. come to israel and you all will see thet all year avry day some palastinay shooting some israeli killing some chield or blowing him self. avry day avry night some where there palastinian man/organization shooting at israeli civilian. and now israel sick of it and israel started to destroy the vilage where all the terrorist hideing and you all didnot undderstand only what you see on TV and not in real life here at Israel.

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you also have to remember that in 1947 when the first jewish settlers came into pre israel state, they were living alongside Arabs with a sort of dual government and its amazing to see history that as they were living merely with the arabs nothing was going wrong until the main jewish side leader declared 62 percent of what is now Israel a Jewish state, without any talks with neighbouring arabs, which started a war.Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion's declaration in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948, that Israel was an independent state triggered an invasion by Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq. Over the next 15 months, the Israelis expanded their holdings to northern Galilee and southern Negev. The ensuing armistice divided Jerusalem between Israel and Jordan, but the fate of 400,000 Palestinian Arabs who fled Israel during the fighting and were in camps near the border was not resolved.

In May 1967, Egypt closed the Gulf of Aqaba to Israeli shipping and began mobilizing its forces to attack Israel because they were still mad of the occupation which they werent letting go off according to the UN resolution. Syria and Jordan also mobilized against Israel. In response, Israel launched a strike. Starting June 5, the Israeli air force destroyed Egypt's planes on the ground. Enabled by air superiority throughout the region, Israeli tank columns and infantry captured the Sinai Peninsula in three days. Elsewhere, the Israelis overran the Golan Heights, the West Bank of the Jordan River, including the Old City of Jerusalem (which Israel later annexed), and Gaza. The war was over by June 10, ended by a U.N.-arranged cease-fire. The United States called on the Israelis to withdraw from occupied territories but did not specify how much land it should give up.

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Originally posted by neo1980

the rules of war and the rules of resolve is that when u invade an area, according to UN resulotion in 1948, you HAVE to give the land back, now this is a stalemate because Arab countries will only recognise Israel now that if they return to the 1967 borders and Israel has admitely said that it wont ever return to the 1967 borders, something the UN has asked them according to the UN resolution in 1948, it is true that Arab countries attacked Israel but u also know who had the stronger army, arab countries retreated in 6 days, i think thats a modern day world record of retreat because of the might of the Israeli army, but remember they have never attacked it since, maybe because of the fact thier army is weak but MOST because of the fact that this is 2002, a modern age where politics comes before war.

I wonder who would have won the war if the Israelis hadn't been supplied from the West?

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Originally posted by Prince2k

You talking here B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.

Palastin hideing behinde CNN they r using it like a weapon. Palastin showing images of israel attacking them but why israel attacking palastin they wnot show becose then all the world will see what wrealy palastin are. come to israel and you all will see thet all year avry day some palastinay shooting some israeli killing some chield or blowing him self. avry day avry night some where there palastinian man/organization shooting at israeli civilian. and now israel sick of it and israel started to destroy the vilage where all the terrorist hideing and you all didnot undderstand only what you see on TV and not in real life here at Israel.

first of all i admire your english, second of all..israeli soldiers themselve dont want CNN or any other journalist to see whats going on in Jenin or Ramallah, if they are so sure they are right about everything, bring it on, show us what is really they are demolishing and killing

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yes they have

at 73, they attacked and almost won.

The only reason why we keep the lands is because we can use it to predict atacks in time to respond, we don't keep the land to **** them off it's for our own protection.

Now something that is ****ing me off.

at first the arabs were stronger (1948) they didn't care about no UN rules and they were ready to kill us all. somhow we won and we have won everytime from that day on, so now when we are stronger they fallow the UN rules (on paper) and they don't fallow it when it doesn't serv them.

don't be fooled the Islam has it's own rules they use modern rules only when it helps them in other cases they ignore it. a proof to that is about at every act they do. and with all due respect I don't hate all islamics I mean alot of nice ones but the Asia ones and Africa ones are just crazy they don't live in modern terms and belive what they want is theirs.

I would like to mention the case of Gandi - the Israeli minister. I believe Israel has responded greatly to it when it pretty much didn't do anything other then demanding the killers. if a minister got killed anywhere else hell would have come up.

two more horror stories..

a Palastine girl made an Israeli boy come with her and she pretty much got him killed... the boy loved her..

the other story, an Israelian came in peace with flags and food to give the arabs... what did they do? kill him... some peace they want...

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Well, I've seen plenty of photos of children holding weapons (and even firing weapons at soldiers. All of which are from various members of the associated press. As for whether they can fight or not, obviously they can't. The point of children being given weapons is two fold 1) Firstly it suggests to other nations that the situation is desperate enough for even children to take up arms and 2) When children fire upon soldiers, or (far far worse) are used as human shields for militia fighters, the soldiers they are firing upon have no choice (however distasteful) but to return fire. And because those children are not trained, they invariably get killed - at which point they are photographed and distributed around the various press agencies as another massacre by the israeli army. Unfortunately, Palestinian children have been sacrificed by militia groups as a PR stunt - horrible to think about, but unfortunately true...

You'r 100% write but avrybody here wont belive it becose they didnot see on TV.

But unfortaly thet is 100% true and Israel always become the BAD side becose the lies of the media !

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Originally posted by NOS482

I wonder who would have won the war if the Israelis hadn't been supplied from the West?

we can wonder all we want, but was HAS happened is the facts

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the rules of war and the rules of resolve is that when u invade an area, according to UN resulotion in 1948, you HAVE to give the land back, now this is a stalemate because Arab countries will only recognise Israel now that if they return to the 1967 borders and Israel has admitely said that it wont ever return to the 1967 borders, something the UN has asked them according to the UN resolution in 1948, it is true that Arab countries attacked Israel but u also know who had the stronger army, arab countries retreated in 6 days, i think thats a modern day world record of retreat because of the might of the Israeli army, but remember they have never attacked it since, maybe because of the fact thier army is weak but MOST because of the fact that this is 2002, a modern age where politics comes before war.

It is true - Israel was invaded and it took land back as a pre-emptive measure in order to safeguard it's borders. As a result there is now a united Jerusalem and Israel is potentially safe from future military threats from the surrounding Arab nations. As far as Israel is concerned, they aren't particularly bothered that Syria and Jordan lost a bit of land when they started a fight - it's their own fault and there isn't particularly much reason to give it back. Luckily they're at peace with Jordan now, so that isn't a problem. However Syria is still clambering after the Golan Heights. Which is particularly interesting since it contains only two things - useless mountains which have only a strategic advantage and a majority of Israel's water supply. The only reason that Syria would want the Golan Heights is to launch an attack on Israel and so Israel has perfect justification for retaining control of it...

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Originally posted by neo1980

first of all i admire your english, second of all..israeli soldiers themselve dont want CNN or any other journalist to see whats going on in Jenin or Ramallah, if they are so sure they are right about everything, bring it on, show us what is really they are demolishing and killing

Sorry abaut my English !

Yeh and how do u know all thet if you live in Toronto far away from all this **** ?

You come to israel for couple days to see how "FUN" is to live neer palastin and see in news avry minut thet israeli civilian was ingured or killed !

You know what come to Jerusalem with you famaly and when you famaly will be outside on the street traveling in Jerusalem you will seet at home and pray thet nathing will hapen to them. thet how many israel famalys live avry day avry mounth and avry year in Israel !

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