Your thoughts of the Israel-Palestine Conflict


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In other words they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They only have themselves to blame for much of this.
I don't see how taking steps to prevent further acts of terrorism damns them (except in the eyes of a biased media). Obviously pulling out and giving the bombers free reign does...
They aren't doing a very good job of controlling the movements of the suicide bombers at all. Israel is an armed camp and they still manage to get their targets with ease. Tanks and gunships are not a very good deterant it seems.

Too true, unfortunately. There's only so much you can do to stop a man willing to kill himself. The tanks and the gunships stop the cells at their root, and can only do so much to stop the bombers themselves - hence the need for greater control and intelligence over what is being planned by the terrorists.

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Originally posted by ooo

yes they have

at 73, they attacked and almost won.

The only reason why we keep the lands is because we can use it to predict atacks in time to respond, we don't keep the land to **** them off it's for our own protection.

Now something that is ****ing me off.

at first the arabs were stronger (1948) they didn't care about no UN rules and they were ready to kill us all. somhow we won and we have won everytime from that day on, so now when we are stronger they fallow the UN rules (on paper) and they don't fallow it when it doesn't serv them.

don't be fooled the Islam has it's own rules they use modern rules only when it helps them in other cases they ignore it. a proof to that is about at every act they do. and with all due respect I don't hate all islamics I mean alot of nice ones but the Asia ones and Africa ones are just crazy they don't live in modern terms and belive what they want is theirs.

I would like to mention the case of Gandi - the Israeli minister. I believe Israel has responded greatly to it when it pretty much didn't do anything other then demanding the killers. if a minister got killed anywhere else hell would have come up.

two more horror stories..

a Palastine girl made an Israeli boy come with her and she pretty much got him killed... the boy loved her..

the other story, an Israelian came in peace with flags and food to give the arabs... what did they do? kill him... some peace they want...

Yetzak Rabin, the only GOOD Israeli leader was killed by a right wing group adment in demolishing the concept of a Palestine State, in the last 10 year, 10 years i repeat, 7000+ palestinian civilians have died in what Israel calls collateral damage and 300+ militants have died, if anyone knows math here, take a guess whats going on..and in those 7000 there were women, children and working men

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neo1980, sorry to burst your bubble.

before 1948 Arabs and jews fought.

ok this reminds me before Israel had any will of making this placeinto a country this place was a waste land and arabs used it to rob Christians who came to Jerusalem.

anyway back to my reply, I don't know the year in English in Hebrew it's Tarpat. anyway a lage group of arabs attacked all the jewish cities killing many injuring and staeling property. The British didn't help the jews so we've created a group of people who protected us so the problems baisicly stoped but again the problems did not start at 48

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Originally posted by Prince2k

Sorry abaut my English !

Yeh and how do u know all thet if you live in Toronto far away from all this **** ?

You come to israel for couple days to see how "FUN" is to live neer palastin and see in news avry minut thet israeli civilian was ingured or killed !

me and 30 of us students are planning as a picture taking group in palestinian areas and Israel in july, dont worry, we will come and report whats going on.

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Where in hell do you people get this distorted information from?!

How exactly is this getting things straight?!

Would you at least bother to check your sources before you hurl such utter nonsense!

Arafat wouldn?t accept the Camp-David offer, because of the refugee problem.

(The refugee problem, is that of some several thousand Palestinians, who fled to different Arab countries during various wars Israel fought in the region. What Arafat wanted was for Israel to pay compensation for all those refuges ensure their return and fund it.

Now? not even the Americans agree upon this matter. Simply, because the refugee problem is two sided. There are double size of Jewish refugees, who were persecuted and chaises away from countries around southern Africa and other Arabic countries, who left behind them real state and property worth millions! You don?t see any of the Arab countries volunteering to reattribute Israel, do you?! And Israel isn?t even asking for that, but it won?t fund the return of those refugees.

Barak even agreed to allow the return of the refugees, but under Palestinian law and government, after the agreement is consummated.)

The Camp ?David settlement had no clause or nothing related to 5% of the IDF staying inside the territories or settlements continuing.

It offered Arafat a full Israeli withdrawal from the settlements and all the territories as negotiated upon. Furthermore, it promised the division of Jerusalem, ensuring Palestinians have suvernity and jurisdiction over the eastern part of Jerusalem- An issue, which is was great dispute and disagreement by Israeli people. I mean..this is documented for heaven?s sake GET A CLUE!

IF anything Arafat betrayed his own people, because he got an offer he never expected to. He had the chance to have it all!

And Im sorry, but when you talk of such things, at least get the names of our prime-ministers correctly. Netanyahu wasn?t even prime-minister then!!

And Sharon didn?t take any 250 supporters of his to march upon ?Har Habait?(the temple). He went there alone, with his body guards.

It was a stupid provocation act, no more nor less.

BTW the temple IS under Israeli sovernity and he has a lawful right to visit it, even though it was politically stupid.

Despite that, it was hardly the reason why the September riots began.

Arafat was simply looking for a reason to start them anyway, especially after he embraced himself at the camp-David negotiations.

And suicide bombings have been around long before the September riots, my ignorant friend. They are well recorded through out all of Israel?s history as a state and especially increased after we started the peace negotiations at the beginning of the 90s.

And the remarkable bit about Netanyahu going in to something or other and 82 people ending up dead?I don?t even know what that is, and what relevance it bears to actuality or past events.

Aside that, are you counting bodies with me?! Are you comparing Palestinian loss against Israeli loss? Please, if you want to start on that rout I?m more then willing.

Id like to see,with which other preposterous lies and disinformation you?d be wiling to back yourself up with.

And feel free to add that nicey nicey sentiment a lot of people who come around calling us ?murders? like to use , when reminded of the suicide bombings that we are attacked by ?but I deeply condemn the terrorist attacks and value all life?, yes yes?

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you also have to remember that in 1947 when the first jewish settlers came into pre israel state, they were living alongside Arabs with a sort of dual government and its amazing to see history that as they were living merely with the arabs nothing was going wrong until the main jewish side leader declared 62 percent of what is now Israel a Jewish state, without any talks with neighbouring arabs, which started a war.Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion's declaration in Tel Aviv on May 14, 1948, that Israel was an independent state triggered an invasion by Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq.

Well, that's mostly right. Apart from the fact that the declaration of independence was a result of UN action, supported by a majority of UN countries and a removal of the British mandate. Life under the mandate for both arabs and jewish settlers was unfortunately one of oppression - mainly because the British didn't give a damn about the area and were only there to keep France out. The declaration of Israel as an independent state did trigger the war, but only because Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq preferred to see the Israeli's "driven into the sea" that to have a Socialist Jewish state on their borders.

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ok

a) Itzchak Rabin wasn't the only good leader we had and I don't believe you can tell by living so far away. economy wasn't that good unlike 1999 when Barak was actually the leader and sucked at peace...

b) blaiming the right for the death of Itzchak Rabin because the killer supported the right is stupid, I mean he wasn't sent by anyone he was just ill in his mind, nothing more nothing less.

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Neowin1980 you coming to israel with your famaly ?

If yes then keep in minde thet in Israel palastin civilian killing atlist 1 Israel civilian. So when you will come to israel buy you self some gun and shut the **** up becose you watching CNN and dnot know how wrealy its live in Israel in fear to go outside to mall or just walk near the house becose of the terror from Palastin (The people thet you respect).

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the majority of the UN in 1948 wanted Israel to have 22 percent of what is now Israel, not the one they have now

Have you actually seen the size of Israel? You can walk across it in a few days, if you're so minded. 22% is barely a sliver of land. But fair enough, Israel has expanded it's borders since 1948. But each time it has done so has been the result of an attack on it's borders and has been done as a defensive posture. Israel did not ask to be attacked, but since it has been it has taken steps to secure its borders, as any nation is entitled to do...

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today i read the new newsweek with the two girls who died 2 weeks ago in israel , one palestinian suicider and one innocent 17 year half american/half israeli girl

that is really sick

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Originally posted by danshome

I don't see how taking steps to prevent further acts of terrorism damns them (except in the eyes of a biased media). Obviously pulling out and giving the bombers free reign does...

All they are doing is causing more acts of terrorism by this stupidity. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

The only bias the media has is the bottom line, all else is just paranoid nonsense.

Too true, unfortunately. There's only so much you can do to stop a man willing to kill himself. The tanks and the gunships stop the cells at their root, and can only do so much to stop the bombers themselves - hence the need for greater control and intelligence over what is being planned by the terrorists.

All they are doing is justifing more volunteering for the cause.

Are you suggesting that the Israelis set up a police state like they were controlled under Nazi Germany? There are far too many parallels here to be comfortable.

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I don't see how taking steps to prevent further acts of terrorism damns them (except in the eyes of a biased media). Obviously pulling out and giving the bombers free reign does...

All they are doing is causing more acts of terrorism by this stupidity. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

The only bias the media has is the bottom line.

Hmm... that's largely debatable - see my post about differing mindsets. I think that the idea that the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in legitimate protest has to be totally forgotten - they're not doing from desparation (there's plenty of other actions they could take, and the bombings have been happening for years), but rather just to kill innocent Israelis.

And if you believe that about the media, then you're more of a fool than I took you for - this is 100% a war of propaganda.

Too true, unfortunately. There's only so much you can do to stop a man willing to kill himself. The tanks and the gunships stop the cells at their root, and can only do so much to stop the bombers themselves - hence the need for greater control and intelligence over what is being planned by the terrorists.

All they are doing is justifing more volunteering for the cause.

Are you suggesting that the Israelis set up a police state like they were controlled under Nazi Germany? There are far too many parallels here to be comfortable.

There are absolutely no parallels to Nazi Germany - Israel is neither fascist nor racist (in fact it is a left wing country). It is a democracy. It certainly (as much as the Palestinian propaganda might like to portray), isn't run by a madman who is hell bent on destroying an entire people...

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Originally posted by danshome

Hmm... that's largely debatable - see my post about differing mindsets. I think that the idea that the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in legitimate protest has to be totally forgotten - they're not doing from desparation (there's plenty of other actions they could take, and the bombings have been happening for years), but rather just to kill innocent Israelis.

Maybe, but this seems to be the most affective way. To the oppressed no invader is innocent, and to an oppressor all of the oppressed are guilty.

And if you believe that about the media, then you're more of a fool than I took you for - this is 100% a war of propaganda.

People in glass houses.....

There are absolutely no parallels to Nazi Germany - Israel is neither fascist nor racist (in fact it is a left wing country). It is a democracy. It certainly (as much as the Palestinian propaganda might like to portray), isn't run by a madman who is hell bent on destroying an entire people...

Germany was a democracy as well, Hitler was elected to office.

The polical system is irrelevant, it is how they are treating certain peoples which is all to similar. They may not have the death camps, but most Palestinians are second class citizens in their own land. When I first saw the Israeli tanks moving into the Palestinian refugee camps I instantly thought of the Warsaw Gettos.

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Hmm... that's largely debatable - see my post about differing mindsets. I think that the idea that the suicide bombers are blowing themselves up in legitimate protest has to be totally forgotten - they're not doing from desparation (there's plenty of other actions they could take, and the bombings have been happening for years), but rather just to kill innocent Israelis.

Maybe, but this seems to be the most affective way. To the oppressed no invader is innocent, and to an oppressor all of the oppressed are guilty.

You're telling me that you think that terrorism is an effective way to stop oppression (and please understand that whatever "oppression" exists, exists entirely because of the terrorism and the threat of terrorism)? If that's the idea that has already permeated from the conflict, then Israel needs to do everything it can to stamp it out, otherwise terrorism will become the de facto method of political protest and nobody is safe...

And if you believe that about the media, then you're more of a fool than I took you for - this is 100% a war of propaganda.

People in glass houses.....

...Should probably research what they're saying, rather than believing everything that they read. I've taken the time to go to Israel, to talk to both Israelis AND Palestinians about the conflict. I've learnt my history, I know where the conflict comes from and I can make a good guess at where it's going. I've researched other situations that are similar - I talk to the people involved on the political level and get it from the horses mouth. And I listen.

Of course, you could just watch the BBC or CNN or NBC or read a paper and get somebodies biased views of what's going on - seen through their eyes and from what they understand. But please god, take it with a pinch of salt and use your intelligence and don't blindly believe everything you're told. Because I guarantee you, you'll just hear what the spin doctors want you to hear and look like even more of a fool. Either learn, or use some judgement, rather than making unsubstantiated comments.

There are absolutely no parallels to Nazi Germany - Israel is neither fascist nor racist (in fact it is a left wing country). It is a democracy. It certainly (as much as the Palestinian propaganda might like to portray), isn't run by a madman who is hell bent on destroying an entire people...

Germany was a democracy as well, Hitler was elected to office.

The polical system is irrelevant, it is how they are treating certain peoples which is all to similar. They may not have the death camps, but most Palestinians are second class citizens in their own land. When I first saw the Israeli tanks moving into the Palestinian refugee camps I instantly thought of the Warsaw Gettos.

Hitler played the system to get to the top, but in as far as "elected" goes, yes he was. Where he promptly removed the electoral system and turned himself into a dictator...

The political system is quite relevent, actually. Israel is a welfare state and that welfare applies equally to Arab or Jew - which is why at this moment there are countless palestinians receiving organs from jews and vice versa - and most of those are from people harmed in the conflict. As for Palestinians being second class citizens in their own land, that is the biggest load of bull I've heard. Yes, they are poorer than their jewish counterparts. Yes, they have less education in general. Yes, they earn less. Is that a result of Israeli oppression? No, it;s because the man they have in charge has made zero - not one - attempt to create some form of organised society or community in the areas he claims to have control over. And the reason for that is that he's too busy trying to win a war that nobody but a few fanatics want to fight and that wouldn't exist if he was vaguely sensible and accepted peace settlements when they are offered to him...

Not to mention that the comparison to the Warsaw ghetto offends me. As a large part of my family both grew up and died in that ghetto and I've been told exactly what it was like my entire life, let me assure you that the horrors of Nazi germany are not happening in Israel. They are nowhere close to happening because the situations are totally different, not least because the situation is currently being perpetuated by the Palistinians who are supposedly so desperate that they have to resort to blindly murdering people by the tens of dozens on the street...

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Well, well......so for no reason I'll pick a side cuz in one of my classes today a good point was brought up. Most of the media coverage that we in the US see is supporting/for the Israeli. Reason being; according to my teacher most of the major TV networks are owned by people of the Jewish religion. What I am trying to say with this is that the coverage is mostly in favor of the Israeli.

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CNN DOES NOT SHOW EVERYTHING ! I HAVE SEEN YOUNG CHILDREN KILLED BY Israels.

First they arrest Moh'd Saleh, a Plastinian aged 23. So far nothing is wrong with the picture!!

http://www.lotsui.net/aspdotnet/1(4).jpg

Then they pin Moh'd on the floor suspecting he had bombs attached to him. Still nothing out of the ordinary?

http://www.lotsui.net/aspdotnet/2(2).jpg

They have him on the floor still, and they try to question a second Plastinian on the scence. They seem to have definitly overpowerd him and have full control over the suitation.

http://www.lotsui.net/aspdotnet/4(6).jpg

That's not enough? OK!! Now they have to strip him to make sure he doesn't really have any bombs on him. AS we can see he is almost naked on the floor, (at least they had the decency to keep his underwear on), he is obviously overpowerd and unarmed, there is no sign of a bomb or any resistant. So what would a democratic country such as Isreal, a county which claims to respect human digintiy and life do??? Take him to prison??

http://www.lotsui.net/aspdotnet/5(5).jpg

The picture speaks for itself !?!

http://www.lotsui.net/aspdotnet/6(2).jpg

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quote:

" Germany was a democracy as well, Hitler was elected to office.

The polical system is irrelevant, it is how they are treating certain peoples which is all to similar. They may not have the death camps, but most Palestinians are second class citizens in their own land. When I first saw the Israeli tanks moving into the Palestinian refugee camps I instantly thought of the Warsaw Gettos."

well...i shall quote myself in a previous post, for that proposterous ugly anti-Semitic bit :

?You should be ashamed of yourselves, for even suggesting, what Israel is doing is anything close to what the Nazis did! Anyone who's looked at one picture/photo from the holocaust , who has the slightest idea of what the Germans did during the WW2, cannot in a sound mind compare!

The holocaust wasn?t singled out as an historical even for nothing. Its not remembered and thought, so that patronizing, pretentious pseudo-humanists could fit "Nazi" in every second sentence. It wasn?t singled out because of the brutality with which Jews were murdered, but because of the systematic way, the mechanization in which those 6 million PEACEFUL civilians in their OWN countries- were slaughtered. Because of the doctrine of hatrate which perpetuated that absolute eradication.

In my personal opinion, this vulgar abuse of the holocaust, trivializes and diminishes the atrocity and monstrosity, which the holocaust was, and is simply a new breed of anti-Semitism.?

Jews were law abiding citizens, fully integrated in to civilian life across Europe and Germany especially. They felt proud being citizens of their country and even fought for those, during WWI.

Palestinians aren?t Israeli citizens. Thus Israel has no legal obligation to treat them as such. Israeli-Arabs on the other hand, are protected by our basic 11 laws, and ARE rightful citizens. They study in Israeli universities are have representation in Israeli parlament.

Palestinians reside inside the Palestinian autonomy, which is under Arafat?s jurisdiction and responsibility. The horrible conditions in the refugee camps are a direct cause of Arafat?s negligence for his entire people. The people in Jenin?s refugee camp have the opportunity to expand and live more comfortably. Arafat has released no funds or bettered in any way the local conditions inside the autonomy and Israel is hardly responsible for that.

Danshome, my grandfather died in a concentration camp during the war. And friends of mine and of my parents have whithered away in the recent army operation, Lebanon and terrorist?s attacks. However the thing which scares me most when I read all these posts is the primitive up rise of anti-Semitism. The ease with which people are willing to mix Israel?s local political conflict with ludicrous monstrous claims of Jews controlling the press holding the money, and mainly this continuous references to JEWS , not Israelies but JEWS.

Posts like ?Something happened to me last week, I was getting tickets for a concert, and a jew was in front of me? remind me of the propaganda of hatrate which was going on after the rise of the third rich.

I am afraid the press?s eager need for a sensational scoop, a heart braking, eye glazing story, is awaking a lot of closet anti-Semitism.

In the gloomy light of this situation, explanations and justification of Israel?s acts in the current operations pale and sound irrelevant, when the opposing voices use such blatant anti-Semitic arguments.

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Originally posted by Drinkrbell

quote:

?You should be ashamed of yourselves, for even suggesting, what Israel is doing is anything close to what the Nazis did! Anyone who's looked at one picture/photo from the holocaust , who has the slightest idea of what the Germans did during the WW2, cannot in a sound mind compare!

b>

sorry mate but what iswarning!b> the link contains a disturbing image taken from the above post made by shafi) this then? being from Europe and brought up in a post WW2 nation this is totally out of the ordinary and most definetly not tolerated.

Let me say again. 2 wrongdo not make a right!b>

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amm

Why do you think that picture is from Israel.

Funny thing is I've seen that picture before at a different forum and at that time it was told to be a guy who jumped from the WTC buildings which I didn't believe for a sec, what makes you believe that is from Israel or another thing what makes you think it's and arab and not a jew that got blowen away in the bus he was sitting in commong back home ?

That picture had no contribute to this debate in my thoughts.

I would also like to remind that in WWII the jews were defined themselvs by the country they lived in and not their religion, they were good keepers of the law citizens (some probobly weren't as in every place...) but they did not bomb bus's or klled children and were actually murderd for the simple fact of being jews and people didn't have anyone better to blaim for their own problems unlike whats going here where the Palastines do not define themselvs by Israel, are not citizens of Israel and they do hurt the citizens of Israel and therefore Israel needs to respond to the actions.

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DEAR LORD.. It's unfortunate that I don't read faster.. There were so many posts that I wanted to respond to.. Refute things and so on, fortunately others have posted historically accurate perspectives.

So, I'll touch on a few posts, and share my opinions.. I certainly can't remember all that I wanted to respond to.. I should have taken notes on a pad of paper while reading....

Yazoo, I am disheartened by your fatalist apocalyptic standpoint that war is the "natural way." Should we accept this constant violence, and throw our hands up in despair? My friend, it starts in your home.. Educate yourself and your children. Teach them to tolerate, respect, and learn about those who seem different. Lead by example in both your words and your actions. Do not fear and hate that which is unfamiliar to you, seek it out and learn what you can. You will find that we are really all quite similar..

devin2002, you made the following unfortunate comment

----------------

Kids stupid childish people is what I think of people who fight for no damn good reason. 9-11 should have showed the world there are bigger problems that who controls some land.

----------------

There is no question that this conflict, (which has endured throughout SO MUCH of our human history), is WAY out of hand. Conflicts over religious differences, and such unwillingness (or perhaps inability) to live together (or as neighbors) for such a duration DOES begin to seem childish. Some of you complain that the news of this war is getting old? It has dragged on for too long? We are privileged to have people contributing to this discussion straight from Isreal (am I right about that?), I am sure they are FAR MORE desperate for an end to this violence than any of us onlookers can imagine.

What 9-11 showed the WORLD, is what a few people with passionately held, but (IMO) seriously misguided beliefs are capable of. In today's world (which has become a much smaller more accessible place), A rather small group of extremists are capable wreaking havoc beyond my wildest dreams in order to move forward what they consider a righteous cause.

9-11 happened (at least in part) because the USA supports Israel. This was made perfectly clear from remarks made in Bin Laden's cryptic video statements. The conflict over the land, and the world trade center attack are indeed part of the same conflict.. This statement, "9-11 should have showed the world there are bigger problems than who controls some land," could not be more incorrect.. In fact, 9-11 shows what lengths these extremists are willing to go to in order to retain that land.

Though it is tough for me to put myself in Bin Laden's shoes, I presume his logic is that U.S. citizen are not willing to die for their beliefs, that we are weak, and that we will not continue to support Israel if we are forced to bear such loss of human life. To this our president, our country, took to arms, we seek out Bin Laden, we wage war with the Taliban. Now Israel, following our precedent, responds to renewed terrorist activity in Israel. Certainly Israel?s goal is straightforward? to eliminate these terrorists and thus stop further terrorist attacks in Israel. Weather this can be accomplished by Israeli aggression, (even when doing their very best not to kill civilians), is questionable for reason I?ll mention in a bit. The only way to stop the terrorism in this case IMO is at the negotiating table. And there aren?t going to be any worthwhile negotiations until the Palestinian people develop some sort of political consensus on how they want to resolve this conflict, and elect an official to represent the majority at the negotiating table.. Also they must subdue the extremists (so they don?t continue the massacre and undermine the peace process). If you don?t want Israel coming in and stopping them, then Palestine must control them on their own.

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devin2002, I caught you on this earlier comment but I must also acknowledge some of your better contributions that I agree with... I have been troubled with the current Israeli military response, trying to decide for myself if this sort of action can have a net positive effect and improve the situation.. Certainly Israel?s goal seems to be to wipe out all the left wing terrorists and live in peace with the remaining population.. I just can?t believe that this will be successful. So many more Palestinians will be angered and moved to action by the Israeli aggression.. Israel?s actions are only serving to unite the various groups of Palestinians together against Israel. I don?t think the violent terrorist population can be eliminated without enraging another portion of the population and thus creating a new wave of hatred in the Arab community.

devin2002?s perspective (from the Irish ? British conflict) seems to fit this situation like a glove.. More blood shed leads to more blood shed which leads to more blood shed.. The only realistic solution is at the negotiation table.. IMO, Israel has been the more sincere party in it?s efforts to negotiate.. One thing I really have NO idea about, is Palestinian public opinion.. Our media probably does a very bad job of communicating such info.. But if I am not mistaken the Palestinian people are divided in their beliefs as to what is a proper solution.. Some probably want peace.. Some want to get rid of the Jewish settlements (which I know little about, but from what I hear, they are a major road block to peace.. and an area where Israel is clearly in the wrong), others want to roll back the clock to some previous border arrangement, other?s demand ? of Jerusalem, and still others won?t rest until the Jews are again gone from the middle east.. dead or otherwise shipped off to some other country?.

It is this lack of unity on the Palestinian side that contributes to their unwillingness to accept the various proposed peace terms? Without any collective unison, The Palestinian people as a whole don?t know what they want, and can?t possibly negotiate a peace treaty without a public consensus to base it from.. And they don?t have any effective leadership to represent public opinion and negotiate a peace treaty.. So it does seem like Arafat has failed his people.. (if peace is what they want) It is time for the Palestinians to find new leadership.. to focus the general consensus and elect a leader to represent them at the negotiating table.

devin2002 said

?Both of your sides are wrong the key word there is BOTH! just like the irish and the british.?

Though I must beg your pardon for my ignorance regarding British Irish relations, it certainly seem like a good parallel.. Endless hatred between people.. (who really aren?t that different), caught in a circular string of violence.. (When I was in London.. the underground was shut down for some time because of some IRA bomb scare)

I am quite worried about the current state of affairs.. It seems public support on a global level is waning for Israel.. This is a time that they are in desperate need of the support from the international community.. Perhaps you frown on their offensive into Palestine seeking out terrorists. Israel certainly cannot have been expected to stay silent while more and more Israeli citizens die as a result of renewed Palestinian violence (after a short break of course for 9-11.. Terrorist strategists knew to wait so as not to be thought of as related to Bin Laden). At minimum, the international community needs to hold Palestine accountable for their actions.. Time after time Israeli?s are killed and Palestinian terror organizations proudly claim responsibility without any repercussions.. Isn?t this the very terror Mr. Bush was referring to when he said we weren?t gonna stand for it? And what of Iraq funding the terror (see end of post for link).. Condoning terrorism? Wasn?t that somewhere in Bushes ramblings? We seem to pick the terrorist we are willing to attack quite selectively indeed.

I fear the current Israeli action may only have served to worsen matters, but I am equally sure that the international community has left them little alternative.. The world has allowed attack after attack, without any global response besides the daily official condemnation of the terror organizations.. (yeh that has worked wonders at deterring terrorism? go team).. Bin Laden?s miscalculated attack on the US Spurred instant retaliation.. But the Palestinian people and government are allowed to continue this destructive, morally reprehensible behavior for 50 years because why? Because Palestinians claim some supposed indigenous right to the land? No no no.. both peoples have interest in the land.. Many should all know about the ancient Hebrews, the Philistines, the Cananites etc.... The history goes back before history!! So what then, they continue to fight because they resent the Zionist movement? Israel has been a refugee safe haven for Jews and Non?jews alike from all over the world.. Much of the land was actually purchased through the Jewish National Fund, but I suppose that is of little consequence at this stage in the game, the Jews were in dire need of an escape from persecution when the state of Israel was created.. It seems to me that the best excuse for Palestine?s inability and unwillingness to negotiate a lasting peace treaty is that the government is incapable of controlling the militants.. There are too many extremists with too many differing viewpoints.. Too many are so far left that they won?t rest until the Jews out of there completely.. Well I?m sorry guys that is NOT how you negotiate a peace treaty.. Palestine needs to get control of their people, both sides need to make compromises and make way for peace.

I?m continually disappointed with the news coverage in the paper and on the TV. So much so, that I have paid practically Zero attention to it since 9-11.. However a credible website worth visiting is www.debka.com

Neobond? (is this an imposter neobond posting to this thread?) You normally write such intelligent comments.. Your comments on this issue seem quite the opposite (or rather I should say I find myself disagreeing with much of what you say). Posting random pics of questionable authenticity, analogies like ?don't try to tell me that when you hit someone, it's not so bad because someone else hit alot harder. thats a poor excuse.? Hardly seem to get to the heart of this issue. I?ll let you off the hook and assume you are a victim of horrible media coverage.. Check out debka.com you?ll get it straight from them.. none of this sensationalist garbage..

You say you can?t believe that Iraq would publicly financial support for families of suicide bombers? I couldn?t believe it either.. But I read it in the local paper!! Here it is straight from MSNBC http://www.msnbc.com/news/735266.asp#BODY (follow the link and search the page for the text ?iraq,? the first hit will bring you to the $25,000 dollar info which I have also pasted below) If that isn?t ?sponsoring terrorism.. I don?t know what is!!? And I?m pretty sure sponsoring terrorism was one of the no-no?s in Mr. Bush?s speech.. So while I am thoroughly unimpressed with president bush.. and his mad dash to go to war with every country on the globe.. (Among other issues like the environment.. Oil etc?).. I suppose Iraq does have it coming.. (well not Iraq? but certainly some high ranking Iraqi officials need to be kidnapped and put in jail) If ever a change in government was in order?? I would say Iraq needs a shift change.. PRONTO!!

Here?s another historical website.. http://www.adl.org/ISRAEL/Record/conflicts.html credible I think.. biased? I hope not..

From the above link at MSNBC

?The money to support organizations like Hamas, as well as Arafat?s Fatah, largely comes from outside the Palestinian territories. Iraq said last week it would now up its contribution to $25,000 (from $10,000) for the family of each suicide bomber. But U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement officials say Iraq probably plays a minor role in financing suicide networks. The bulk of the money comes from the same sources that provide funds to a wide assortment of radical Islamic groups and causes, including Al Qaeda: wealthy Arab businessmen, particularly from Saudi Arabia and other oil states, and well-off Islamic families in the Western world. Saudi Arabia?s foreign minister, Saud al-Faisal, told NEWSWEEK last week that private Saudi donations to Hamas had been cut since the group was put on a special terrorist list by the U.S. Treasury Department in November. Now ?support goes only to the Palestinian Authority? of Yasir Arafat, said al-Faisal.?

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