etan4u Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 I know that my post was QUITE a mouthfull. I hope some of you are faster readers than I.. Certainly opinions and solutions that are worth writing down for a problem this massive are complicated, and cannot be condensed into some pretty little metaphor.. One other thing I wanted to add.. is neobond is right to leave this thread open.. I feel this discussion is indeed productive. If indeed some of these people posting ARE in Isreal right now.. as we speak.. then I am *almost* speechless. This shows how amazing the internet is.. what great things it is capable of.. Even in a time of war.. the borders are non-existant.. We can converse on a global level and read how citizens of Isreal feel about the conflict.. If only I had some way of finding the pulse of the Palestinian people.. How do they feel.. What does the average palestinian wish for? How is this conflict to be resolved from their perspective? Do they want to fully occupy isreal? To have equal rights and share the country in peace? To live peacefully in neighboring states? For the jews to leave? I hope you found some of what I said worth reading.. I'll check back and hopefully see some responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtseJam Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Yes, I live in Israel. Look at my pretty flag. weee :p (Just wanted to remove some of the tension. ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 And as Shafi said before: " THE PICTURES SPEAK FOR ITSELF.." I'd love to say they do, I really would - anything for this to be more than baseless propaganda. But it's a picture, or at least a series of pictures. It does not tell you what was going on, it does not tell you what happened between the pictures. It CERTAINLY does not provide the commentary that is supposedly attached to said pictures. Of course, far more disturbing is that it's fairly obvious that something in the commentary is off - please look at picture four and compare them to the rest of the pictures. Apart from the fact that all the "police officers" are: a) not in Israeli uniforms (they seem to be American police uniforms rather than Israeli army - they're missing the berets as well) b) suddenly holding handguns instead of rifles c) suddenly surrounded by different vehicles d) completely different people It seems that the important picture that links the two scenes is missing. Thus there is no evidence as to what happened to the man - of even who shot him, of what his crimes were, or for that matter, whether the man in picture six is the same as the man in picture 1 (indeed, as it happens the man in pictures 1 through 3 is wearing completely different trousers from the dead man in picture 6). So yes, the pictures do speak for themselves. They're just not saying the same things as you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Well, well......so for no reason I'll pick a side cuz in one of my classes today a good point was brought up. Most of the media coverage that we in the US see is supporting/for the Israeli. Reason being; according to my teacher most of the major TV networks are owned by people of the Jewish religion. What I am trying to say with this is that the coverage is mostly in favor of the Israeli. Just to make things clear for the Americans among us, European media is primarily Palestinian biased - we get stories of how Palestinians were shot without any of the background behind it, we learn that (and this is from yesterday's news) "Israel has ignored US, UN, EU and UK calls to pull out from the occupied territories" without learning that the reason for this is because at 7am yesterday another suicide bomb went off, killing dozens... You know, maybe, just MAYBE, it's because all the news agencies are owned by Palestinians... that would explain so much. For the record, you might like to tell your anti-semitic teacher (because as people have pointed out, there is a difference between anti-Israel and anti-semitic. Unfortunately this falls into the last category) that most of the news networks are owned by conglomorates. If you want to go to the news editors in America, they are: ABC: David Westin CBS: Andrew Heyward Andrew Lack: Andrew Lack CNN: Eason Jordan MSNBC: Dennis Sullivan Well, those are their names. Their officially corporate biographies do (quite rightly) not refer to their religions but none of them have overtly jewish names. I've just done a fair few searches to try and find out. I wonder how your teacher knows all these interesting details that no one else seems to be aware of... Right - less sarcasm, more points. The news in America IS biased towards Israel because of the ongoing relationship between the two. What this means is that you've probably got a little lack of Palestinian perspective (though to be fair, I watch the american channels we get in the UK and it's certainly nowhere near as biased as we are the other way). So do some research, look up some facts before you make a decision so that it's an informed decision, not just something that you've heard from someone else who turns out to have baseless anti-semitic notions. Make this discussion a discussion of fact instead of mis-truths and propaganda. That way you don't end up looking like a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Originally posted by danshome I see that it is now useless to continue this discussion since the Israeli apologists are now out in force. They're of the mind that if you say an untruth enough times and with conviction it becomes the truth. Sort of like religion. In other words they continue to spread the Great Lie in defence of Israeli policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freightgod Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Didn't even try to read all the above comments...just too many! But i thought i'd offer a reflection...no conclusions... it just seems weird to me (and i suppose it's only because i'm an american) to try to create a national identity based on the exclusion of other national identities...seems like Germany tried that once... doomed to failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 I see that it is now useless to continue this discussion since the Israeli apologists are now out in force. They're of the mind that if you say an untruth enough times and with conviction it becomes the truth. Sort of like religion. In other words they continue to spread the Great Lie in defence of Israeli policy. Oh please! I started this discussion as a moderate, but I've been forced to continue because of the sheer amount of mis-information that has been floating about the board. I'm not apologising for the actions, I'm explaining why (in my opinion) they are currently justified. If you're arguing with the fact (the quote vanished) that I think the pictures above are just sheer baseless propaganda, then feel free - show me the source that they came from, show me a detailed description with names, dates and events that are verifiable and I'll be glad to accept your version. Don't think that if I don't see an inhumane act by the Israeli's that I won't be up in arms about it, because I certainly will - more so than any of you guys, probably. But unfortunately what I see time and time again is just a series of mis-truths and propaganda. And if you think that I'm bringing religion into this argument to make a point, you're sorely mistaken. In fact, reading through the whole thread again, the only times that religion has been introduced into the argument are by the people arguing AGAINST Israel, at which point one feels obliged to refute it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooo Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 well yeah if that was the case. in the mid east war the Palastines never were part of Israel Israel is not only for the jews although it was supposed to be we have arabic citezens christians and many more. The Palastines were never part of Israel, the fight is not because they want to be equel but because they pretty much want to kick us out of Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Didn't even try to read all the above comments...just too many! But i thought i'd offer a reflection...no conclusions... it just seems weird to me (and i suppose it's only because i'm an american) to try to create a national identity based on the exclusion of other national identities...seems like Germany tried that once... doomed to failure? Hmm... perhaps you should have read the comments earlier. Someone else brought up this, where it was quite rightly pointed out that Israel is a multi-cultural society with a state religion, and a majority population of a certain religion. Much like most of South America, most of Europe, every other country in the Middle East (except far more tolerant a society than most)... Israel has a large Israeli-Arab population and a smaller, but still significant, Israeli-Christian population, both of which are fully represented as citizens and have the same rights and any other person in Israel. And I'm fed up of refuting the comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany. The two are not comparable on any level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icie Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 one can compare any country with Nazi Germany...it just depends on your perspective. That is why some call the US "the great Satan", because in their view, the US is an immoral society, and yet others might view Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist groups as Nazi's as well, because of the fanaticism. It all depends on your perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 one can compare any country with Nazi Germany...it just depends on your perspective. That is why some call the US "the great Satan", because in their view, the US is an immoral society, and yet others might view Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist groups as Nazi's as well, because of the fanaticism. Well, here was me thinking Nazi's were the extreme right-wing fascists of 1930's and 40's Germany... I wasn't suggesting that your views wouldn't be dependent on your perspective, but rather that there was no comparison of fact between wartime Nazi Germany and current-day Israel. If you want, I can go through the points again, one by one? Incidentally, the fundamentalist Islamics that do refer to the US as "the Great Satan" (notoriously Iran - which, in case you were curious, isn't an Arabic country) may well do so because they view it as an immoral society. On the other hand, they do not call them Nazi's or fascists (and rightly so, because this would be a misuse of the terms). Also, anybody who would respond by calling them Nazi's, or by calling the terrorist groups Nazi's is similarly mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onsi Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 this is what we have to believe in dont you agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtseJam Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 You are taking it out of context... Com'on, who said those are terrorists? What are your sources, I want to know. Did that soldier kill them? Probably not. Com'on guys, just cause you see a certain situation portrait in a photo it doesn't mean that they're dead or whatever! Look deeper! Find more information, FACTS. Gosh. And stop puting "JEWISH" in every 2nd stentence! For all you can know he might be a non-Jew Russian-Israeli soldier! How do you know he's a JEW? JEW JEW JEW. Jeez. And then some of you dare to say we keep blaming people for anti-semistic acts. Hmpf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onsi Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 NANT, I told you before, I am not against israilis or palestenians and I said I lost friends from the both sides. and I dont have any sources....dont talk to me as I am CNN or BBC....or maybe it's one of the shot down NileNews or Elgezerah.... Just and email dude....and email forwarded to millions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtseJam Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 And you don't see what's wrong in that photo? Why post it here when you KNOW it has no validality? And you actually buy what people tell you in some chain-email. Good going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Just and email dude....and email forwarded to millions Who was it who said this had nothing to do with propaganda? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazoo Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Originally posted by etan4u Yazoo, I am disheartened by your fatalist apocalyptic standpoint that war is the "natural way." Should we accept this constant violence, and throw our hands up in despair? My friend, it starts in your home.. Educate yourself and your children. Teach them to tolerate, respect, and learn about those who seem different. Lead by example in both your words and your actions. Do not fear and hate that which is unfamiliar to you, seek it out and learn what you can. You will find that we are really all quite similar.. At what point did I say war is the "natural way"? I am totally against war of any kind. I am for one people one world. I live in the UK and would love to visit some of the most beutiful countries in the world but due to some kind of conflict its not possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onsi Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 and why is it ****ing you off, if it's not true you just turned it invalid , beside is it a proper action to aim at a woman and kids.... calm down... :sleeping: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 and why is it ****ing you off, if it's not true you just turned it invalid , beside is it a proper action to aim at a woman and kids.... I think Nant's more annoyed that this discussion is turning to baseless accusations and propaganda instead of a decent discussion of fact. And just to be fair, you can't even tell from that picture where the soldier's aiming. For all I know, he could be aiming well behind the woman and children and they're just moving alongside him to get out of the way... I guess this is what happens when you take photographic evidence as gospel truth - Mussolini ran a country based on faked photographs and taking them out of context... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtseJam Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 Onsi, why am I ****ed? Well, I'm not ****ed :) Just utterly annoyed. Go a few pages(probably someting like 4 or 5 pages) back and re-read them. Maybe you'll understand why... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onsi Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 guys, we agreed to let all our feelings out. and although I dont know anyone here in person I respect everyone whether or not I am convinced. I just wanted to let you know that. and again , I wish we had peace and treat each other as human beings, regard our races, ethics, colors..etc OK ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshome Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 we agreed to let all our feelings out. and although I dont know anyone here in person I respect everyone whether or not I am convinced. Good man, that man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YtseJam Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 You know, it's really hard not to get involved emotionaly here... I mean, I always heard stories by my grandmother about anti-semism at her time and I kept telling myself that things have changed since then and indeed that's how it was up untill I found this thread and look at what I found... It really scares me to see people say such things involving JEW in every 2nd sentence or so. It freaks me out to see how the world actually did not change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onsi Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 anyway, we should learn to love each other, we should take out the hate inside of us, and this wont happen until we care for others as we care for ourselves. I cried for my friends who died there...I felt the same sorrow for both israilis or palestinians.... you know why. cuz we were friends....muslims, jewish, christians....it makes no difference, we were humans.. I feel sorry for losing them...I even dont know whom to blame again, again, again......P E A C E ... and... H U M A N I T Y :disappoin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yazoo Posted April 11, 2002 Share Posted April 11, 2002 I'd like to say I live in the UK and last night I saw the news. The headlines was about a suicide bomber who came from Jenin. And what the effects were regarding this. Interviews with Israelis were shown. Then it showed how journalists were still being banned from the conflict areas preventing to show the truth. The out come of this news was that the Palastines are still managing to send bombers regardless of the icursions. We need to wait till we can get more evidence from within the banned areas to make any sort of impartial judgement. Israel (Sharon) will never win the war but maybe the battle, as in the past. If and when he withdraws the palastines will retaliate with whatever they have. This is a sad fact. Its also insane to beleive that by sanitising the palastinians the conflict and hatred will end. There are a lot of children left without fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters. They will grow up with plenty of anger and start the cycle all over again. Whats the solution? I don't know and I don't think anyone else does either. Sad fact:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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