Do you believe in God?


  

199 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe in God?

    • Yes!
      94
    • No!
      84
    • Sometimes!
      21


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[ AHAHAHA. It's too long! So this will be a double post! Sorry. :D ]

Since I'm one of those guys who thinks that, when it comes to philosophy, people need to either hear as much as they possibly can, or absolutely nothing at all, I suppose I'll make this post.

Disclaimer: I'm agnostic. I was raised Christian until I broke away from it when I was around 14 years old. I forget my original reasons, but it was a lot of the basic stuff you'll hear atheists use. Fortunately, I ended up getting interested in Taoism around 15-16 years old, and from there got hooked on philosophy and religion. I was constantly disappointed in my final highschool years that a religious studies or history of religions class didn't exist, and would probably not exist for a long time due to the paranoia of some atheist and religious minority lobbyists who pretty much whack off to the establishment clause (separation of church and state). I didn't have a chance for a formal education in the topic until college, so I did a lot of book-buying and studying on my own. The internet was/is a god to me. :)

When you ask about believing in a God, I'm assuming you mean the Christian god. You may later say you care to hear about any other deities, but no english speaker says capital-G God without Christianity in the front of their minds. I'm not criticizing this; I just wanted to point it out. There are other faiths, as the Allah-praising presence in this topic is demonstrating.

Some basic info. I hope most of you know that the god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all the same--kinda. We know that Christianity is an extension to Judaism, and Islam is also in the same family tree, having stemmed from Ishmael, the first son (illegitimate, too) of Abraham. I think everybody should know that, especially the Christian fundies who enjoyed painting 'Fsck Allah' all over the place post-911.

The Bible has a confusing past. In the first few centuries A.D., there were numerous divisions of the minority religion called Christianity. One Roman emperor, Augustine (I'm pretty sure), a sun-worshipper (I can never remember the name of the Roman sun god), felt that Christianity had a lot of potential for usefulness in his empire. He couldn't figure out a good way to get the people to accept one emperor over one nation of people. Upon learning of Christianity and its one God over one Earth with one Heaven and one Messiah, he figured popularizing a faith in the concept of 'one' would make his people more inclined to accept one emperor (ironically, the fall of his empire wasn't far away). So he invited many Christian philosophers and priests to his own home to discuss canonizing Christian literature and scripture into what would eventually become the Holy Bible. This freaked out the Christians a bit, since up until that time they were being persecuted by the Romans. Needless to say, they were cautious, but quickly settled. One humorous argument among the philosophers was over the nature of Jesus, and whether he was the same as (homo) or similar to (homoi) God. This spurred a huge, long debate, all over one little letter: the iota (every idiom has its origins, eh?). Long story short, they settled on homo, and the idea of the Trinity was born (yes, all you little boys can now snicker about how the Romans decided that Jesus was a 'homo'. Har har, shush).

Many books and scriptures and letters and documents were cut from the final canon of the Bible back then, most notably the Gnostic scriptures, which disappointed me a little when I finally read them and saw how good they were. They're a very good read, and every serious Christian or wannabe-scholar should read them. They focus more on the spiritual elements of the religion, include the book of Judas Thomas, and even describe what exactly God and Jesus were. I'll get back to that later, because reading those books--as far fetched as it may seem to a modern Christian--added puzzle pieces that snapped perfectly into place with my own developing philosophies.

I spent two years as a Taoism fanatic back in highschool, and to this day I still haven't had any experiences that effectively prove wrong anything in Lao Tsu's writings. So I hold the Tao Te Ching in high regard. I quote it a lot--probably too much for my own good. I can't explain the Tao, but those of you who are familiar with it have some insight on what I'm talking about, and those who aren't familiar with it should read it, really. It's a rather quick read, which gives you time to read more than one translation (important).

Ok, on to my actual current philosophy. Please notice the stress on the word 'current'. My ideas can change out of nowhere, so never take anything I say as something absolute. :] Am I overdoing it on the disclaimers?

I think one of the most important aspects of Christianity is the Trinity. The second most important aspect is understanding the *handicap* you impose on yourself by personifying too many things. Think of what the Trinity is: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I call for a reordering of those. How about: The Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son. I won't presume to theorize on what God and Jesus really were, because even I am torn in my opinions on that matter. However, I have strong feelings that the Holy Spirit is in fact much the same as the Tao. "The Holy Spirit is everywhere, in all things." It's the nature of the universe, it's the way of things, and it is understandable, but understanding cannot be mass-produced. Christianity, Judaism, the Tao, Buddhism, Wicca; they're all the same in that its followers are meant to seek a level of understanding, enlightenment, or however you want to call it, with the way of the universe.

No follower of a religion can seriously believe that they can deserve eternal salvation and everlasting life in paradise just for following the rules and thinking thoughts at a deity (praying). You can follow rules your entire life and never really understand them. However, if you understand them, you can't help but to follow them. One great example is the ruckus our religious right has caused over homosexuality. They'll do a good job of ignoring evidence in nature of every other mammalian species demonstrating this behavior, and point at verses in their supreme tree carcass (Bible) to discount all logic. Why? Because they don't get it. Why? Because they misinterpret it, almost intentionally, and will literally go to war before considering a change in their own beliefs. What do they misinterpret? Three things in particular: Sodom, Leviticus, and Paul. They will ignore every single Biblical reference to the story of Sodom (even quotes made by Jesus himself) describing the moral of Sodom as avoiding inhospitality (the citizens of Sodom wanted to humiliate the angels/foreigners, not get their rocks off). The Leviticus verses (between chapters 18 and 20) are mistranslations of male prostitution and promiscuity (nevermind the fact that the same book also condemns eating shrimp). The various books by Paul (Romans, Corinthians) also contain mistranslations of prostitution and promiscuity, and even have one word that isn't used at any other point in the entire bible, and scholars to this day can't figure out exactly what it might mean. The one certainty is that homosexuality as it exists today--with the capacity for romance and mutual affection and long-term relationships--was so nonexistant in that ancient culture, that there wasn't even a word for it. 9/10 scholars agree that the true basic root message being passed here is to avoid exalting pleasures of the flesh (just look at everything else condemned around it), and always remain hospitible to those different from you. These are two morals that a drastically high number of Christians fail to observe. They are also morals that are mirrored in myriad other religions of the world.

I find that Christianity is meant to be more about understanding the Holy Spirit and having a near Buddhist/Taoist demeanor, and not so much about worshipping a personified deity and following a rule book (which anybody can do with enough willpower, and never actually become a better person on the inside).

Curious about my reference to the 'other' scriptures defining what God and Jesus actually were? Well. From what I remember, God the 'Father', the single entity, was described as an insane angel who believed himself to be the creator/god of the universe, and created the Earth and the humans therein to serve him. Do you see where my logic of the Holy Spirit fits in here? This angel believed himself to be the one true god, when in fact the god is a Tao/Holy Spirit--not an actual conscious entity as we would perceive it. Jesus, the Messiah, 'Hope', 'redeemer', 'savior', was sent to the earth as a way to, basically, set-things-straight and save the people from the oppressive morals established by this angel (thou shall not eat so and so food! thou shalt not wear clothes with two different fabrics! blah blah!). Jesus' ressurection was meant to be perceived as symbolic, not literal.

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Remember, I'm agnostic, so this isn't actually something I believe in. It's more or less what I believe the origins of Christianity to be closest to. ;) If you'd love something fantastic to read about, study up on the stories behind Nibiru, or 'Planet X'. You'll learn a lot about the origins of the Judao-Christian story of creation (Babylonian and Sumerian roots), and even get a bit of a scare about the end of the world (because--I'll be honest, I have no idea what to think about Nibiru. The way I see it, if I see a burning red cross in the sky at any given time, I'm packing up and moving to Montana for the high ground and distance from fault lines). The absolute best book you can possibly read--if you don't mind sleeper books--about Nibiru, and the origins of the creation story, and the culture behind the Pentateuch era and before, check out anything by Sitchin. He's written Earth Chronicles and, best one yet--and a must read for the religious scholar--Lost Book of Enki. Even if you're a skeptic (like me), they're fun reads, and make you feel like the real world just might be a little bit more like the movies.

I want to provide links for you guys to read more on your own, but I just can't find any really good sites in my bookmarks. So, I'll just give you a few search terms you can throw in Google and look up on your own:

Tao Te Ching, Gnosis, Gnosticism, Book of Thomas, Nibiru, Planet X

And one decent site on the creation stories and their relations to Babylonian lore: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_bibl.htm

I take for granted a lot of the info I type, so if you do have any questions about info that I've said and want sources to back it up, I should point out that I don't frequent these boards as much as some of you, so please email questions to me. :) I love talking about this stuff, and love it even more if you can prove me wrong on something (I don't like walking around with information that people can shoot down). So contact me if you have any questions or comments! josidhe@yahoo.com

------------------

As a response to the Koran-love in the topic, I'd like to point out that it was no special accomplishment to write a book that addressed a wide spectrum of life's elements. It's a very good book, and a quick read, too. However, I have never once seen this scientific proof that it was written by Allah. I've never even heard of this proof. If you're going to claim something is proven, do one of two things: explain the proof, or give references to it. While it's true that many spiritual-posers are just sponges waiting to absorb the next thing their family/friends/priest tells them, there are a few of us who want to actually learn. I'm fascinated by all religions (especially Celtic paganism!), so don't be offended--I merely get this twitch in the side of my neck when people do the believe-me-cuz-I-say-so thing. Thanks.

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Originally posted by Borg77

You can't prove that god does exist or doesn't exist because you don't have the knowledge to do so in the first place. If God wanted human beings to have physical proof that he existed he would of done so a very long time ago. So, you and your lawyer friend can disprove all you want but in the end your just wasting your time.

Same goes for the theory of evolution. Its only a theory and not fact. Macro-evolution maybe taught in the schools but it doesn't mean you have to believe its true. Micro-Evolution is the only concept of evolution proven to be true.

Religious people and scientific people have beliefs but are different. Religious people worship God with faith because he created the world and can take the world away at a moment's notice. Scientific people experiment with the physical enviroment in our world and universe. So, their beliefs depend on what they can see and what they cannot see. For all we know, God may exist in a different dimension with a whole new law of physics.

Maybe something to ponder on for awhile. ;)

I forgot to mention:

He's a Christian now. =)

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Originally posted by Joshie

study up on the stories behind Nibiru, or 'Planet X'.

I have heard bout Nibiru, that it was what killed the dinosaurs and is what's going to kill us off when it's orbit comes closer to our orbit. (it has a very elliptical orbit that carries it well into the Oort Cloud/Kupier Belt).

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Joshie I would like to commend you on a well thought out and superbly presented piece/post. I see that we both have had similiar paths in life as far as this is concerned. The only difference I see in regards to this is that I do believe in a god and a "holy spirit". I think people get too hung up on what we call these things, indeed so much so that they miss the point.

I won't elaborate any more as your posts have said what needs to be said so very well already.

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I never thought that in this thread the people will post so many conclusions and opinions about religion, reencarnations, etc., i just thought that it would has Yes or No replys, but you all are going slightly mad xD

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I feel the need to counter a lot of the stupidity in religious arguments, because there is stupidity. Lots of it, on both sides.

In the pro-religion side, I hear a ton of stupid arguments. Here are ones that stand out to me the most:

Q) If there's no God, what happens when you die? Or as one poster said, "What do you see?"

A) Let's say I cut out your eyes. What do you see? Black? Or nothing? You wouldn't see black, because you simply wouldn't have sensors anymore. You would have simply lost your sight. You'd be down to four senses. It's not that difficult to comprehend death being like an off switch. In fact, I think people would welcome that kind of death. It would have no consequences, no guilt, no nothing, and no worries about being stuck playing Monopoly all the time because eternity can sure get boring.

Q) How else could the world have been created? Don't give me some stupid Big Bang theory.

A) The Big Bang theory isn't as stupid as it sounds, and only sounds rediculous when it's over-simplified. The creation theory is far more wonky, and rather than going into detailed explanations about the formation of everything, we're given seven days of God creating the 'elements' (wind, water, earth, etc.), and life. Obviously, it's much easier for you to believe that a deity 'thought' us into existance, than believe that the universe expanded via chemical reactions and grew out of whatever its former state was. And trust me, theorizing on the 'former state' is far more reasonable than wondering if God had a beard or not.

Q) j00 R GOING TO BURN IN HELL HAHAHAHA ISNNER I HOPE YOU GET BUTTRAPED BY SATAN

A) Yes, religious people actually say that sometimes. This is why I don't drink Mountain Dew.

--

Atheists aren't any better. Atheists usually **** me off like crazy because of how friggen lazy they are. A vast majority of teenage atheists are only atheists because religion told them they couldn't do what they wanna do. No, they didn't try to understand the rules, they didn't try to see if the religion really meant it or if it was misinterpretation, and they didn't try for a second to use some philosophy. They just gave it up in a fit of teen rebellious angst and went off to impersonate their favorite modern rock band. Atheists know even less about Christianity than Christians do. Of course, agnosts know more than both of these combined. On to the quotes.

Q) If God really exists, why does he let people suffer!?!?

A) In every major modern religion, free will is emphasized. No deity is going to interject in every single bad situation in the world. What do you learn the most from? Mistakes and suffering. If you think you can actually develop into a good thinker by being a spoiled happy little kid for your entire life, you're insane. It's a core belief of a certain eastern religion that "Life is suffering." If you seriously think God exists to protect you from pain, you're lying to yourself and you have no grasp on the true point of spirituality and self-improvement and the quest to 'rise above' suffering. I guess you're sooooo ****ed off at the gods for letting you do whatever you want.

Q) How can you believe in some man in the sky who made all the life in the universe on his own?

A) No Judao-Christian scripture ever says God is anything like a Care Bear. It refers a lot to the Kingdom of Heaven, 'heavens' being synonymous with outer space. Hell, for all you know, angels are aliens. Is that really so hard to believe?

Q) I like sex, and the Bible says sex is bad.

A) First of all, no religion would last long if it was anti-reproduction. Secondly, the only thing any religion has ever been strict against is letting physical pleasure rule your thoughts. If you're angry because spirituality doesn't let you sleep around with a different ###### every night, well, first of all spirituality isn't for you. Any guy whose brain is in his wang is inherently incapable of deep thought--ask any female.

--

So there you have it. Are those all of the stupid things Christians and atheists say? Of course not. Just remember folks, think before you speak, and try not to sound ignorant about beliefs you've dedicated your life (and/or afterlife for all eternity, for better or for worse, heaven or hell, blah blah--in other words, you Christians who voted 'sometimes' are idiots :p ) to.

P.S. Sorry about the decline in quality from my last post, but we all have things that grate on our nerves, and this is some of them for me. :D

P.P.S. I had to add that P.S. after reading jesterz' praise of my earlier post. I felt kinda bad for sounding a little barbaric just now. :D

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Originally posted by Joshie

P.S. Sorry about the decline in quality from my last post, but we all have things that grate on our nerves, and this is some of them for me. :D

P.P.S. I had to add that P.S. after reading jesterz' praise of my earlier post. I felt kinda bad for sounding a little barbaric just now. :D

Let the inner barbarian bellow! This is a subject that ****es me off to no end, and not because of people disagreeing or not believing what I believe (but damnit, clowns are evil! :evil: ), but rather because they refuse to listen to others or make really ignorant statements and assumptions.

My favorites have to be:

  • That the Big Bang and Creationism can't coexist
  • That "God" equals Religion and vice versa
  • That the Bible (or any other text) is a factual account or is meant to be taken literally
  • That different Religions and Philosophies can't coexist
  • That is impossible because it can't be proven scientifically
  • That clown's are not evil creatures sent to steal my birthday cake :D

I have a solution to all these arguments, a new religion/philosophy called ICTOARSFI or ICTOAPSFI :p

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Don't you think that it is just arrogance on the part of humans to think that we are so special that a supreme being must have created us on purpose?

BCL.

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Dude, clowns give me the creeps. When I was younger, I was addicted to that SNICK show 'Are You Afraid of the Dark'. I would actually change the channel at the part of the opening video when the camera passed over a little midget clown head. That thing was not funny.

But yeah, I'm with you on your gripes, too. The thing is, when you actually type out the gripes and look at them, it blows your mind how there are people who actually present these arguments. I don't hate the people who use them, but I definitely am disappointed. When I debate, I hope to have a really good opponent, but some of the things people say are so wonky, you know they didn't come to those conclusions on their own, but rather 'learned' them. I have enough faith in the human mind to believe that, if a person comes to a conclusion on his/her own, it's at the very least relatively worthy of being taken seriously.

Anywho, off I go for a while now. Evening stuff. Thanks for not flaming me. :D

-----

whiterock: I agree that it requires a lot of pride in mankind to think that, we're so fantastic, an ultimately supreme deity had to have made us just because only a deity could've made us as great as we are. I don't think this arrogance makes it impossible for there to be a deity, but I do think this arrogance prevents the person from really grasping quality thought.

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Yeah I get kinda dissapointed when I learn that someone is arguing over something that they truly don't understand, as they were taught it by their parents and whatnot, and they have never questioned it. We as a species are so above that, and we have this wonderful gift (or ability) to create our own thoughts and beliefs, so why waste that.

And whiterock, I am so arrogant that I used to think that God was my own personal wish granter :D

Month before 12th birthday

"God I promise I will lead a perfect life if you only bring me that bunny I want"

Day of 12th birthday

"But God I wanted the bunny with the 'play' before it..."

(I am such a sarcastic believer in God huh :p )

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atheist...BAH....thats just a name given to "non belivers" BY people who believe in a god. Im not atheist, I am me. I hate it when people ask if I belive and I say no, then they say "Oh youre an atheist." Uh...No, Im not. I live my life day to day, whatever happens, happens. Im glad Im here, I dont care WHY Im here, but Im just glad that I am.

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Originally posted by Hunter

atheist...BAH....thats just a name given to "non belivers" BY people who believe in a god. Im not atheist, I am me. I hate it when people ask if I belive and I say no, then they say "Oh youre an atheist." Uh...No, Im not. I live my life day to day, whatever happens, happens. Im glad Im here, I dont care WHY Im here, but Im just glad that I am.

Gee, and I always thought atheist was the word given to explain the definition of someone who does not believe in or denies the existence of a god or gods. No different than an agnostic being one that believes the existence of a god(s) is unknowable. Don't get so hung up on words, they are here so that we can describe things without having to use a bunch of them (words).

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My worthless 2 cents

...I found religion in the greeting card aisle,

now I know Hallmark was right...

and

...and I think,

what if no one's watching

what it when we're dead, we're just dead

what if it's just us down here

what if god ain't looking down

what if he's looking up instead

if my life were a movie

i would light a cigarette

and the smoke would curl around my face

everything i do would be interesting

i'd play the good guy

in every scene

but i always feel i have to

take a stand

and there's always someone on hand

to hate me for standing there

i always feel i have to open my mouth

and every time i do

i offend someone

somewhere

but what

what if no one's watching

what if when we're dead, we're just dead

what if there's no time to lose

what if there's things we gotta do

things that need to be said

you know i can't apologize

for everything i know

i mean you don't have to agree with me

but once you get me going

you better just let me go

we have to be able to criticize

what we love

say what we have to say

'cause if you're not trying to make something better

as far as i can tell

you're just in the way

i mean what

what if no one's watching

what if when we're dead

we're just dead

what if it's just us down here

what if god is just an idea

someone put in your head

i mean what

what if no one's watching

what if no one's watching

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Originally posted by jesterzwild

Joshie I would like to commend you on a well thought out and superbly presented piece/post. I see that we both have had similiar paths in life as far as this is concerned. The only difference I see in regards to this is that I do believe in a god and a "holy spirit". I think people get too hung up on what we call these things, indeed so much so that they miss the point.

I won't elaborate any more as your posts have said what needs to be said so very well already.

Did you not just last page criticise people for patting others on the back for having the same beliefs as them? Isn't that what the first 3 lines of your post are doing?!

I myself am enjoying reading this thread, my beliefs are not set in stone and am glad to see p.o.v's beyond the simple does-he-exist-or-doesnt-he way of thinking, especially people throwing in stuff about other dimensions :) Remember, no preaching and no flaming, lets keep it a discussion and not make it an argument or oppressive.

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Well I'm certainly not complaining about the praise. :D

But I hear what you're saying. The way I read it, he was complaining about the two sides of the arguments encouraging keeping the argument two-sided, as if this was some sort of competition. I didn't mean my post to be on any particular side; just informative... So I took his praise as appreciation for my effort, not encouragement to misuse my obviously superior intelligence on poor unsuspecting victims in the future. :D

The dimension stuff wierds me out. In my own opinion, dimensions are just mathematical and philosophical observations made by humans. First, second, and third dimensions define the physical nature of our world, but the fourth dimension goes beyond the physical by describing the flow of time. The problem is, since you can't reverse time, the fourth dimension isn't a plane of free exploration. It's a very, very limited-motion dimension, unlike our third dimension. As for the fifth dimension, I have no friggen clue what that's supposed to be. I've heard science nuts talk about as high as the ninth dimension, but they lose me fast. What the heck could the ninth dimension possibly be talking about? But wait, don't answer that until you tell me what the fifth-through-eigth are for.

I think it's all symbolic and used for scientific observation. The idea that we can somehow interact with higher dimensions is just too skiffy for me.

I'm *not* enjoying reading this thread. :D I'm just seeing a lot of the same stuff over and over again. Nobody has ever impressed me with something new on a webforum before. I'd probably go into orgasmic convulsions if somebody here actually inspired me.

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Originally posted by Joshie

The dimension stuff wierds me out. In my own opinion, dimensions are just mathematical and philosophical observations made by humans. First, second, and third dimensions define the physical nature of our world, but the fourth dimension goes beyond the physical by describing the flow of time. The problem is, since you can't reverse time, the fourth dimension isn't a plane of free exploration. It's a very, very limited-motion dimension, unlike our third dimension. As for the fifth dimension, I have no friggen clue what that's supposed to be. I've heard science nuts talk about as high as the ninth dimension, but they lose me fast. What the heck could the ninth dimension possibly be talking about? But wait, don't answer that until you tell me what the fifth-through-eigth are for.

Some say the fourth dimension is time, but actually it is another spatial dimension that we cannot see or walk through. If string theory is correct, there are eleven dimensions in which strings vibrate. These strings are, according to this theory, what makes up everything, from DNA to atoms to shoes. So, there are eleven spatial dimensions according to string theory.

Sorry about drifting off the subject, but I just wanted to elaborate.

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why do u think Will Smith converted to Islam

http://us.imdb.com/WN?20011109#9

from IMDB

Muslim Leaders Salute Will Smith

Muslim leaders across America are saluting Will Smith for embracing their religion after completing the Muhammad Ali biopic. Smith was introduced to the religion while learning about the legendary boxer's life - Islam is Ali's religion of choice. Friends close to Smith claim the megastar is now embracing the religion in his own life and is eager to learn more about it. Director of the American Muslim Association of North America, Sofian Zakkout says, "Muhammad Ali is one of the best examples of Muslims in this country. He's been a wonderful spokesperson for the religion and if Will Smith can continue Muhammad Ali's work that would be wonderful." He continues, "Islam is a peaceful religion and if good people such as Muhammad and Will can carry that message then it would be wonderful. It would be a positive message for peaceful Muslims all over the world." Smith appeared at the America: A Tribute To Heroes telethon in September alongside Ali, defending Islam in the wake of the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington

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What Is Islam?

The word, ?Islam? means ?Submission to God?; it also means ?Peace?.

Islam is the religion decreed for mankind by God, Who revealed it to His prophets; and they in turn, taught it to the people around them.

As the Religion of God, it implies ?the Peace that a person can attain in this life and in the hereafter, by submitting his whole self to God?.

From the beginning of mankind, God sent revelations with His chosen prophets.

The first prophet was the first man, Adam, peace be upon him, and he was a Muslim, (i.e, one who accepted Islam; or one who submitted his whole self to God), as were all other prophets of God. They were all Muslims.

Islam means ?Complete and Unconditional Submission to Allah (God)?

* Who Is Allah?

Allah is the Arabic word for the One and Only God, Who is the Creator and Sustainer of the whole universe and everything in it.

This means that Allah is not just the God of the Muslims, but of the whole of creation; He is the God of the Christians, the Jews, the Hindus and even of those who deny His existence.

The Holy Qur'an says: "Say: He is Allah, the One; the Self Subsisting. He doesn't beget; nor is He begotten. There is nothing (or no one) like Him."

* Who Was Muhammad?

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last of God?s prophets. God revealed messages to him to guide mankind to a life of obedience to God.

He was born to a noble family of Makkah (Mecca) in Arabia in the year 570 CE.

When he was 40 years of age, the Angel Gabriel appeared to him and revealed the first verses of the Qur?an. He received further revelations from God on many occasions in his life until his death at the age of 63.

In the light of this Guidance from God, he preached Islam and many who were worshipping the false gods of the Arab tribes became Muslims. These early adherents of Islam were brutally persecuted by the tribal leaders of Makkah: the name of their tribe was Quraysh.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) had to emigrate with the Muslims to Madinah, a city about 250 miles to the north of Makkah. The people of Madinah were more tolerant and they gradually accepted Islam. It was from this town that Islam spread to other parts of Arabia.

* Is Islam?s God an Angry or Vengeful God?

No, not at all. This is a complete misunderstanding.

Every chapter in the the Holy Qur?an begins with the sentence, ?In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful?. And it is with the same formula that a Muslim should begin every activity, be it taking food, starting a business etc.

The Qur?an gives so many epithets to God, like Forgiving, Kind, Loving, Compassionate, Merciful and so on. From the Islamic point of view, God is the All Merciful Creator and Sustainer of the whole universe. Besides, He has given us His Guidance too, to lead us out of darkness into light.

* Were There Other Prophets?

Certainly.

The Holy Qur?an, which is the Muslim Scripture revealed to Muhammad, the Last Prophet of God (peace be on him), clearly states that from the beginning of mankind on the face of the earth, God had been sending prophets to guide the people who lived in different lands in different periods of history.

These prophets taught their people basically the same religion; because they were teaching just those ideas and principles which they received from the One and Only God through revelation.

* What is the Muslim Belief about Other Religions?

Since all the great religions were originally taught by God?s own chosen prophets, they had to be the same basic message. We do see differences, however, between them and we have to examine how this happened.

After the time of every prophet, his teachings were either forgotten or distorted. Also, as a result of the changed circumstances of later times, newer and newer interpretations were introduced into the religion and gradually the essential message was polluted.

This was the reason for the existence of a plurality of religions, in the place of the single Religion of God which all the prophets taught.

* Has Islam Any Special Relation with Judaism and Christianity?

Judaism was originally the religion taught by Prophet Moses or Musa (peace be on him). Christianity in its origin was taught by Prophet Jesus or `Eesa (peace be on him). Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the only prophet to come after Jesus.

Chronologically as well as historically the religion closest to Islam is Christianity and then Judaism. Many of the religious concepts of these two religions bear a close resemblance to those of Islam. These three religions are called the Semitic Religions.

* What Do Muslims Believe about Jesus?

Like Christians, Muslims believe that Jesus was born miraculously without a father. But unlike Christians, Muslims do not take him to be God or the Son of God.

Jesus was a man and a prophet. It is true that he has performed many miracles; there were others who worked miracles. But a miracle-worker does not become a God on that account, or even a prophet. Jesus said words to this effect. (See Mark 13:22: ?For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect?).

The Qur'an, which is the Muslim Scripture God revealed to Muhammad (peace be on him) says, that Jesus performed many miracles by the help of God. In fact, these miracles were meant to prove to the people around him that Jesus was a Messenger of God. Jesus said so while restoring a dead man to life. (See John 11: 41-44 where Jesus says to God that he prayed to revive Lazarus in order to prove to the people that he was sent to the world by God, or in Islamic parlance that He was a Messenger of God).

Anyone who holds that Jesus is God has to explain so many categorical statements in the Gospels like these: That Jesus prayed to God; that he wept; that the first commandment is the Jewish Shema (that God is Only One) and so on and so forth.

So, the Muslim belief about Jesus is well attested by the Gospels themselves.

* What Happens after Death?

At the time of death, a person?s soul is separated from his body and the body is buried. It decompses and becomes one with the dust whereas the soul lives on, but passive in a state of sleep until they are resurrected on the Day of Judgement.

* What is Meant by the Day of Judgement?

The Day of Judgement comes after the End of all the days here in our earthly life.

The Day of Judgement is the occasion when all the souls of all the persons who lived here are resurrected with their bodies and are gathered together for Judgement.

On that day, every soul will be given what it deserves. That is to say, all those who believed and did good deeds will enter Paradise to enjoy Eternal Bliss. Those who rejected God and His Guidance will be sent to Hell, to undergo Eternal Torment.

* Why Should There Be a Hell?

God says in the Holy Qur?an that His Mercy transcends and outreaches all His other qualities, but at the same time He is Just.

We read in the Holy Qur?an a verse which should make us think: ?Are the rightly guided equal to the misguided?? Certainly not. Are those who exploit and oppress God?s righteous servants equal to those who strive and sacrifice in His Way?

If God is indifferent to the beliefs and actions of both the good and the bad alike, where is His Justice? To balance His Providence and to fulfil His Justice, there has to be a Hell as there has to be a Heaven. That is quite in the interest of Divine Justice as well as of the natural justice we usually speak of.

* What Is the Islamic View of Man?

From the Islamic point of view, man is the highest of God?s creations; and in fact God created the earth and everything in it for the benefit of man.

God says in the Holy Qur?an that man is God?s vicegerent or deputy on earth. This means that He has bestowed upon man not only spiritual, moral and intellectual capabilities, but also freedom within limits.

It is noteworthy that if God gave man all the intellectual qualities and no freedom, then those qualities would be useless. Similarly, if God gave man freedom and no reasoning power, his freedom would be entirely disastrous. This is because freedom always entails responsibility.

As God has created the earth and everything for the use of man, God says that man should use these gifts responsibly.

In teaching humankind a sense of responsibility, God sent His prophets with Guidance. When man listens to the prophets and shows sufficient wisdom to follow God?s Guidance, his life yields the best results. If man is irresponsible and ignores God?s Guidance and follows his own whims and fancies, his life becomes useless or quite opposed to God?s scheme of things.

* What Is the Purpose of Human Life?

God says in the Holy Qur?an that He created man as His vicegerent or deputy on earth. He says that He created the earth and everything in it for the sake of man. Also man is endowed with reason and all other related faculties. He is given freedom within limits.

God?s Purpose of human creation is to reward those who show gratitude to him by submitting to His Will. We know about His Will from the Holy Qur?an and from the exemplary life of His Prophet, Muhammad (peace be on him).

We have to learn God?s commands and prohibitions and follow His Prophet to do the duties entrusted to us as God?s representatives on earth. That is to say, his reward will be for those who fulfil the entrusted responsibility placed on them; namely, that we have to make use of God?s blessings in accordance with the limits set by God, for the benefit of our spiritual and worldly progress at the individual level as well as at the societal level.

The Purpose of Life therefore is to attain the best of this world and of the other world; and that will be possible only if we discipline our lives to fit in with God?s way.

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Originally posted by Nick_Jones

Did you not just last page criticise people for patting others on the back for having the same beliefs as them? Isn't that what the first 3 lines of your post are doing?!

I myself am enjoying reading this thread, my beliefs are not set in stone and am glad to see p.o.v's beyond the simple does-he-exist-or-doesnt-he way of thinking, especially people throwing in stuff about other dimensions :) Remember, no preaching and no flaming, lets keep it a discussion and not make it an argument or oppressive.

Actually I was just telling him that his posts were well presented, and I would have done so whether I agreed or not. I was also, in the post you mention, referring to people only saying what I have to Joshie and to others when they agree. I'm sorry if I seemed hypocritical or such. I also wasn't criticizing them, I was merely saying it was funny that it happens that way.

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i believe there is some kinda power around us.

i don't know what it should be called. god? jesus? allah? aaron?:D

but i do believe its existence. people are just putting a name on them. like ghost, does it have to be called like that? can i call it abc? so that it won't be that scary. well sure i can. so u people don't be so obsessed with the names. its just a name.

i think that jesus, allah, chinese gods... you name it.. were sent by a kind of power as i've mentioned before (bear in mind that it doesn't have to be looked like man) to educate different categories of people. if you believe in jesus, lets say, you're in category a, if you believe in allah, you're in b..... and c, d, e..

you know why? because we all have our own belief. so different kinda religion was formed to suit your taste. ;)

like there are a lot atheists here, someday you might fall in a new category, which basically holds the same concepts. without which our world will be a chaos.

i must say that, i believe in myself the most. :)

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Originally posted by deron dantzler

on what sOma said and more: except when under the christian faith one must attend church on sunday mornings and some on sunday night as well. the devout christian probably spends wednesday evening in church, much time is spent in prayer, and bible study and also spends 1/10 of their income (as the bible directs) to the church. interesting how "hope" for an afterlife turns into such an obsession and opresses the people as a whole. and why don't we consider religion as a whole...religion is the bulk of the reason why the palestinian people and the israeli people do not get along. yes land plays a major role in it as well, but they would be able to co-exist a lot easier if they were of the same religion or of NO religion. most of them look alike, and they were born right there in the cradle of civilization. but religion is what has split them apart and what will come them apart. religion is an outdated thing. the stories were made when the world was flat and we've proven that wrong now. we have also proven that men weren't created by 'god' but were more or less an accident of nature. the whole thing is...why waste time like i am and everyone else is now arguing a/b it? we ARE. we are here by whatever method, and we should use the time here wisely and concentrate more on the things of this world than the bullsh*t that holds us down like spending approx 1/8 of our lives in bible study, church, and 1/10 of our assets to something else. if that 1/10 went to something like starvation other than pastors there would be a lot less starvation in the world. or if it went to a fund to cure aids we wouldn't have that either. so much is wasted on religion. we are possibly on the brink of a war b/c of the middle east conflicts and the endless struggle there. it's all a waste. a big waste.

Can I just say that Christians are not required to do any of the things you say? We don't spend our lives trying to earn God's favour - we know that he already loves and accepts us and has paid the price for all our wrong in Jesus.

The things you mention are clearly presented in the Bible as good things to do that will enhance our lives and those of the people around us. So we do them out of love for God, and I for one enjoy doing them, and they make me feel better, safer, more purposeful. I could say that you and I waste much more than just a Sunday morning in front of the computer. And you would say "but that's different - I enjoy that and do it of my own free will". And I would say "well, how is church, bible study, giving, etc. different then?" Christianity is far from a boring study of rules or merely a hope for the future (though it has that as well!) :)

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I appreciate all of your ideas and opinions, but I would also like to share mine... feel free to comment.

I am Christian. But my ideas about Christianity may not be what most of you are used to hearing. You see, there is this thing called the plan of salvation. It explains why we are here, where we came from, and what happens when we die. Now, a lot of people will hear the word 'salvation' and immediately believe that if you are not saved you will go straight to hell... smoke.. fire... torture.. etc etc etc. But thats not what the plan is. The plan is to get everyone back to God, but by their own choice. Please hear me out:

We are all children of God.. created in His image, loved by Him, and we were with him even before being born. We did not simply blip into existance the moment we were concieved or born. you see, we, as children of God, were of course very very happy before we were born. After all, we were with God. Think of God as a father.. he cares for us and wants us to progress and grow. When you are happy ALL the time, there is only sooo much growing you can do... after all, learning comes from experience. We as spirits could only progress to a certain point without the experience of mortality. Off to earth we go...

Why go to earth?? Well there are several reasons: 1. To learn and gain experience 2. To recieve a physical body 3. To learn how to chose between good and evil and 4. To learn to walk by faith.

This was God's plan, from the beginning, and He presented this plan to you long before Earth even existed. The plan would require us to leave God?s presence, enter mortality, and learn to ?walk by faith, not by sight? (2 Corinthians 5:7). We would receive a physical body. We would also be allowed to use our moral agency to choose right or wrong, which would help us grow.

God knew we would not always make correct choices. So He promised to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to be our Savior. Jesus would teach us how to live. He would also make it possible for us to repent and to be resurrected. Through His Atonement we could become more like God and ultimately return to live with Him again.

Not all of our God's children accepted His plan. Lucifer, with many others, rebelled and was cast out (Revelation 12:4,9). But all those who would eventually come to Earth accepted the plan and even ?shouted for joy? (Job 38:7). You were among these.

On Earth you get by as best you can... through experience and the knowledge that you gain from others. You make mistakes. You correct your mistakes. You constantly make a choice... good or bad... every minute, every day, every year... then you die. God does not decide your fate for you... he gives you your agency... your ability to grow and learn through your own actions.

Hopefully when you were alive you learned a lot, maybe you even learned right from wrong, good from evil, and grew to know God without being literally in His presence. Many people, though, never have the chance to learn about God, and He knows this. If you have never had the opportunity.. you will get that opportunity once you die to learn about God and choose good or evil. Thus, everyone has at least one chance to accept God... and most people have many many many chances throughout their life.

As in all things your choice will determine what you do, where you go... how you will progress. Those who reject God will not be with Him, and those that choose Him will. It's that simple. God will not have those in His presence who choose evil over good.

That, in a nutshell, is the plan of salvation. We all have our chance.. we may be born to different families and to different circumstances.. but its what you do.. the choices that you make that determine who you are.. what you stand for.

Now, I am not saything that not believing in God makes you a bad person... no way.. thats not true at all. But I am saying that you have a chance now to choose. And because you are given that chance now, who knows if you may ever get another one?? So choose wisely.

Anyway, there is a lot to it.. but if you have any questions then let me know.

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