Evolution, 2 cents.


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Originally posted by tauf

Found this bit of linguistic info over at www.creationscience.com. Thought this might hold some relevance:

13. Languages

Children as young as seven months understand grammatical rules.a Furthermore, studies of 36 documented cases of children raised without human contact (feral children) suggest that language is learned only from other humans.

etc etc etc.

this is interesting, but isn't very relevent because it assumes language is spoken word....which it isn't always.

Heck, just go listen to a bird's call slowed down by 1/8th, it's full of inflection and changes depending on the surcumstances....birds could be seen to have a bigger vocabulary than any single spoken language of any human group.

Originally posted by JimF

Evolution is based completely on lies. It's so obvious.

good arguement.....unfortunately it's full of holes.

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Jim, you accuse others to offer proof, yet offer non of your own. This is classic creationizm propoganda, as are all of the links you and the other creationist zealots have offered up for review.

for anyone wanting to read further debates on this topic, i suggest reading here, http://www.sciforums.com/f22/s6dde1c65edd5...28be5c6a9f1f44/

to quote from one of the top-most threads

"The Nonsense of Christian Mythology

Christian mythology.

1. Adam was immortal.

2. To sin means to disobey God.

3. Adam sinned.

4. The punishment for sin is death.

5. Adam died.

6. All men after Adam inherited his mortality.

7. The nature of all men became sinful because of Adam.

8. All men sin.

9. All men die.

10. Jesus was divine.

11. Jesus gave up his divinity.

12. Jesus came to earth as a man.

13. Jesus never sinned.

14. Jesus did not deserve to die because he never sinned.

15. Jesus accepted the punishment due to every man.

16. Jesus sacrificed himself to God in place of all mankind.

17. God could raise Jesus to life again because Jesus did not break his laws.

18. God resurrected Jesus.

19. God gave Jesus a new nature that was free from the sinful nature of man.

20. God gave man the gift of eternal life if man believed in Jesus.

21. Man no longer needed to die for his sins.

22. Man had to request forgiveness from Jesus if he wanted to live.

23. When men die they have to wait for the second coming of Jesus and judgment.

24. Those who are judged worthy will be resurrected to a heavenly paradise.

25. Those who are judged not worthy will suffer torment for eternity.

This I think is a fairly accurate summary of Christian mythology, however, there are many cults who will hold variations on this. Please comment on any significant variations.

Each of these items represents a potential debate, however, to start I want to suggest that if Adam did not exist then the whole basis for Christianity is nonsense.

Many suggest that the Adam and Eve story is just symbolic and that it isn?t possible that just two people were the cause of the whole of humanity.

If the story of Adam and Eve is just symbolic then it must also be true that the whole of Christianity can also be no more than symbolic fantasy. The purpose of Jesus was to save man from his sinful nature that was begun with Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve never existed then the basis for Christianity disappears.

Does everyone agree?

Cris"

this debate is old already....let's move on

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Originally posted by JimF

Username: I myself being a Catholic know that the church doesn't endorse evolution. It just says that a Catholic can believe in either creation or evolution. However if he decides to believe in evolution he MUST believe that evoluton was directed by God. You cannot believe in evolution without God. Actually you can, but then you cannot be a Catholic.

You should brush up on your doctorine.

I am a Catholic, and the Church does endorse and support evolutionary theory.

As with all aspects of the material world, the Church has always encouraged and backed scientific principle, regardless of propoganda that would say otherwise. With all material things, the Church teaches that science comes from God.

To the creationists I say this; Do you know God's mind? Who are you to say what God can or cannot do? Could God reasonably use evolution as His tool? Of course he could. God established a multiverse based on organized, measurable order. The same scientific principles that allow us to create petrolium based vehicles, plastics or the computers you use now support our extrapulated views on the evolution of living animals. Take care in pretending to know Gods mind.

To the evolutionists I say this; There is so much yet unknown about the cosmos. Look at the massive scale of reality, from the trillions of trillions of subatomic building blocks to the massive unmeasurable cosmos they makeup. Who are we to say that the universes order could not be guided by a higher state of being?

The possibility of God has never been disproven. Why is it so easy to believe in the unseen miracles of the physical world, yet so difficult to believe in the miracles of the spiritual?

As humans we are the perfect meshing of physical and spiritual. Yet as our physical side has needs which we fulfill, so many ignore the needs of the spiritual.

Just an opinion.

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[f]; That is a close breakdown of the Christian beliefs, but it seems that you, as many atheists and Christians do not know the full history of Judaism and Christianity.

Both religions find their roots in the Summarian montheistic belief in one 'Great Creator'.

Beyond that, we could be here for hours...just please believe that Christianity isn't as freaky or 'mythical' as many would have you believe.

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I'm fed up of this thread, its poped up many times. i haven't read this thread, but I made a reply anyways.

Evolution isn't even disputed anymore since there is so much evidence. We've even seen it happen in labs and in our lifetime. eg: bacteria building resistance to medice. Certain virus and bacterial strains evolve every year. You can't catch the same cold twice but you get sick many times in your life.

Any1 foolish to debate this has their eyes closed to the truth. I don't know whether you believe in religion or you just want to be different. Whatever the reason, you're foolish and absurd.

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Originally posted by semifamous

Amen, Christian brother.

Tolerance is a good thing, but I feel uncomfortable with the possibility of having my (future) kids taught something against what I believe. I believe that God is omnipotent. He could have created the world in 7 seconds, or 7 hours or 7,000,000 years, but he did it in 7 days. I believe that God is love. I believe that God doesn't lie. I believe God, being all powerful, would not let an "error" like "7 days" show up in the Bible, His Word, if it was an error. I believe it is the truth, and I don't want my children to be taught anything other than the truth. I will explain the theory of evolution, and my belief of creation, but I want (at least) equality, not a one sided story against my beliefs. You can't prove God doesn't exist. If God exists, and if He is who He says He is, then he can do *anything*, including create the world and everything in it in as little time as he wants.

God rocks, and He exists. The proof that I see (which many others won't see) are the changed lives of everyone who's given their life to Christ and is assured of eternal life with God in heaven. Some people have hardened their hearts so much that they don't want to see God. They want to live without God. But that's OK. They'll get exactly what they want forever. It hurts Him to know that, but God is perfectly just, and will not let sin enter his presence. If He did, He wouldn't be God...

Wow. OK. Sorry I got a little bit off-topic, but I still want to post this. I want to thank everyone for their tolerance and understanding of everyone else's ideas and opinions. This is a huge debate for a reason. If either side could be proven "beyond a reasonable doubt," there would be no discussion. Fortunately for me, you can't prove that God didn't do it, so I've got a Rock to stand on. =)

Good response semifamous.

I think the 6 days of creation and 1 day of rest is symbolic of God's later requirements of the Jewish people in keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest. Often the way in which God does things as described in the Bible is an example or template of the way in which he desires us to live.

Just out of curiosity, have anybody's views or beliefs been influenced or changed by the information posted in this thread?

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JimF blows life to my view on "the classical redneck" in refusing to accept facts, refusing his kin education and blowing things out of his head that are better left for dead.:ermm:

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Originally posted by tauf

Good response semifamous.

I think the 6 days of creation and 1 day of rest is symbolic of God's later requirements of the Jewish people in keeping the Sabbath as a day of rest. Often the way in which God does things as described in the Bible is an example or template of the way in which he desires us to live.

Just out of curiosity, have anybody's views or beliefs been influenced or changed by the information posted in this thread?

No. Because the source that would change my mind would be in a scientific journal, not superficial claims and biased views.

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Originally posted by modem

One last post before I head out to do productive work for today. One thing I've learned and 9-11 proved that time and again is that the human body and the human soul is evil. No way around it, no way to get past that. I'll stand firm knowing that the world and every single specimen on it was created seperate as an entire unevolable organism and I"ll teach my kids that, tell others that who want to know what the truth is. As for trying to convince the masses... na. People since the beginning of time want to believe things opposite of the truth and evolution is no different. Trying to and proving that evolution isn't real is like talking to a brick wall with people who believe that.

I'm not out to convince any of you and I'm happy and content in knowing that Creationism has already been proven as what happened. As for the rest of you, go about your merry way. You'll only believe when you actually "look" at the evidence. :)

This is so true... Nothing anyone says in this thread will change anyone's opinions. Talking with someone who is wililng to listen: yes you can change their minds and change their interpretation of "the truth". However talking in a computer forum, where (in my opinion) the truth is only visualized by a minority, will change nobody's mind on either side of the argument... its pointless, OK? As for me I am a creationist, I find that evolution in the sense of ADAPTATIONS does exist, however in the form of creating a new species cannot occur.

That's my $2

If anyone would like to debate this further with me I would be glad to, but I feel that a thread like this will make no difference, as talking to the wall doesn't make it move...

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JimF blows life to my view on "the classical redneck" in refusing to accept facts, refusing his kin education and blowing things out of his head that are better left for dead.

This debate is more of a symbol of the presence ignorant, stubborn, and close-minded people than anything else.

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Originally posted by JimF

Username: I myself being a Catholic know that the church doesn't endorse evolution. It just says that a Catholic can believe in either creation or evolution. However if he decides to believe in evolution he MUST believe that evoluton was directed by God. You cannot believe in evolution without God. Actually you can, but then you cannot be a Catholic.

Hardly. The Pope says that Evolution is a natural fact. What he said was that the so-called soul was created by god. Get your facts straight.

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AHHH! how bout we ban the religion from this Computer related forum people? i myself am not one who comes to neowin to hear about peoples arguements on how the universe was created. i come to neowin to get help and give my services to people who need help. neowin, in my opinion, was made for computers, graphics, software, and that comes with those. this is not the first thread i have seen about these kinds of arguements and it is beginning ot tick me off that we are posting thread likes this on a computer related site...anyone else feel this way besides me?

and for all u religious fools, this is my 666 post :evil: :evil:

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I was reading an article very much based on the same premises as the one linked on the first page. I must say that I do not: personally believe that evolution does not exist; 2) from a scientific viewpoint, the article does nothing to disprove evolution.

Somehow, the author believes he can help disprove evolution. However, he does not realise that he has used the word "scientific" in his article. Scientific proof, does not lie in paraphrasing the works of others or taking quotes out of context, as many of these articles do.

Trying to disprove Darwin by stating "In Darwin's day, it was easy to claim that the fossils were there but had not been discovered." does not only show bias, it is inconlusive and unscientific.

If Locke wants to

scientfically prove that evolution does not exist, he will need more conclusive evidence and will need to do a case by case study to disprove all previous evidence in evoution including Darwin. Rember evolution is still a theory and has not been proven. The scientific basis for proof is much heavier than theory. Much the same as math and physics. As much as we know about science, we still do not have the ability to prove or disprove many things. I find it hard to believe Locke has proved anything.

I was sitting with some friends (all of whom have at least a bach. in Biology) the other day, reading an article similar to this one and we could not help but criticize it.

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Originally posted by Anormal

AHHH! how bout we ban the religion from this Computer related forum people? i myself am not one who comes to neowin to hear about peoples arguements on how the universe was created. i come to neowin to get help and give my services to people who need help. neowin, in my opinion, was made for computers, graphics, software, and that comes with those. this is not the first thread i have seen about these kinds of arguements and it is beginning ot tick me off that we are posting thread likes this on a computer related site...anyone else feel this way besides me?

and for all u religious fools, this is my 666 post :evil: :evil:

OFF-TOPIC:

well, this IS the general forum, so anything goes. Plus, I find it interesting to see people's thoughts and feelings, so you get the sense there are actually real people on this site, not just theme-making machines.

BACK ON-TOPIC (sorta):

Ok, people, this is getting rather heated, I will admit, but please keep it non-personal. Again, the rules state no hateful posts, so don't go flaming individual members, just ideas becuase that is the topic here: the debate of two ideas. Any personal flames should be taken to a PM or warnings will be issued and the thread will be closed. This is a good thread and I'd hate to see it end that way...

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Originally posted by timdorr

OFF-TOPIC:

well, this IS the general forum, so anything goes. Plus, I find it interesting to see people's thoughts and feelings, so you get the sense there are actually real people on this site, not just theme-making machines.

BACK ON-TOPIC (sorta):

Ok, people, this is getting rather heated, I will admit, but please keep it non-personal. Again, the rules state no hateful posts, so don't go flaming individual members, just ideas becuase that is the topic here: the debate of two ideas. Any personal flames should be taken to a PM or warnings will be issued and the thread will be closed. This is a good thread and I'd hate to see it end that way...

yes i agree with timdorr on the flamin part here...but i see that this the general forum but i just dont think the general forum of a computer site should include religious topics, but its just IMO so yeah. ;)

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Originally posted by werejag

please close this thread please. i have seen to many forums die because of religous nuts taking over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

??? I don't think anybody's trying to take over NeoWin :evil:

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right!!!! just watch all the religous questions and progranda that appear in the coming months. and tell me that its not a take over!!!

we should put a cabash to this tripe now!!!!

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My-my what an interesting thread.

On Neowin . . .

This is a community in my mind. The discussion of issues relevant to the day is not only appropriate but welcome. For those who fear a take-over by the religous fanatics, I can only say that you clicked on the topic and posted. Thus the topic returns to the top of the list. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, then don't. No one is forcing you to. But there are those in this community who enjoy such topics and really benefit from the information and the diversity of view.

On Evolution vs. Creation . . .

I for one am a Christian. However I do believe that evolution should be taught in schools. Creationism should be taught in church. I want my children to grow up and make their own decisions as I did. In order to do that they really deserve to hear both sides of the story. I want the best kind of life for my kids. I don't want them to be restricted to some narrow view and grow up without the ability to at least listen to the other side.

A belief in Christ and God does not mean that we're deluded or fanatics. It's a choice that we make. We feel that science has failed to answer all of the really interesting questions like . . . why are we here?

In the absence of this . . . what would there be?

Who or what made the Universe?

The list is endless.

As a Christian, I always felt that the answer to the most interesting questions really only creates more questions. The study of the Universe through empirical means is not only facinating, but essential to the development of man as a component in that Universe. Only through greater understanding can we truely grow as a species.

Did we evolve?

I have no clue, but the absence of a "missing link" certainly leaves that question unanswered. There seems to be evidence to indicate that it is possible, and maybe even likely, but we still are left with that one immutable fact that the link between man and ape has never been realized.

I want to ask those Evolutionists, particularly those who feel that Christians suffer from some sort of mass delusion . . . how is your faith that such a link exists any different than my faith that there is one Being, that we choose to call God, who is behind this whole thing?

Personally I think that we are not altogether that different since neither of us can really prove our point but we believe with all that we are that our position is true.

On the subject of evil and man I can only say this . . .

The opposite of a trivial truth is a lie.

The opposite of a great truth, is also a truth.

There is evil in all men is a Great Truth.

-TR

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Originally posted by Neobond

Thread re-opened, keep it clean folks! :)

thank you, i would have done it if you hadn't :D

besides, I see no wrong with this thread so far. it's no different from any mac v. windows thread or the like...

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JimF: Do you know Creation happened or do you BELIEVE ?

You cannot possibly know since it is only written down in a stupid old contradictionary book. I don't care what you believe, but I don't like my tax $$$ to go into teaching it in schools. I think neither one should be in schools, or better yet we shouldn't even have public schools period.

Portions of text copyright © 2002 to JimF

--edit--

Damn typo

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stuff education, who needs it??!

(for those out there thinking of replying to that, it was a rhetoric/sarcastic question...)

I am sorry, but most of these threads ARE a little tiring.

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