semifamous Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I'm going to include some disclaimers here... =) Keep me out of trouble that way... So what made God? Why has it done nothing to show its presence? Why would it expect everyone to worship it? Why would it let people commit murder in its name?God is. He is not a created being. When Moses asked "Who shall I say sent me?" He answered "I AM." Not "I was" or "I will be." Time doesn't exist for God because he exists in eternity.Nothing to show his presence? What are you talking about? Have you not read of the many signs He performed for His people in the Old Testament? Parting the Red Sea, providing bread from heaven, preceding them with a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, leading them to His promised lane, etc. Then coming to earth as a man performing miracles that were witnessed by many. If you would like to contest the fact that Jesus Christ actually lived and that he did all of the things mentioned in the Bible, I believe you will find much discouragement... (Check out a book called "The Case for Christ" by Lee Stroebel on this subject, if you're open-minded about the subject at all.) God has given man a free will to do as he pleases. He hopes that we will seek after Him and find Him and find out how much He loves us. I'm glad He was looking for me. =) In addition to giving us a free will, He is also a just God. We will stand before Him on judgement day, and each will be judged according to their works. He can not let sin enter heaven, because God is Holy (on the extreme end of perfect), and He hates anything that goes against what He's said. He's given us a law that we are to obey. If you fail in one point, you are deserving of Hell. Fortunately, He send Jesus to die for my sins. Jesus lived without sin, because He was not born of a man. He was born of God. He lived without sin, and did not deserve to die. But he was hung on a cross and died for everyone who believes in Him as their Lord. I deserve to go to hell, because I've gone against God's will, but because Jesus died for me, I don't have to die. =) It's great! God rocks! =) I hope you'll at least do a little bit of reasearch on who Jesus was if you think that God "has done nothing" to show His presence. I know I can't make you, and I'm not going to try, but that's the best example I can think of. Also... scientific experiments can be reproduced by anyone and the results recorded. Scientists are *still* just *trying* to create "life from nothing" in a lab... I don't know why... I think they're trying to prove that life can be created. I thikn though that *if* they ever do it, all they'll prove is that it takes a creator to create life... =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elduderino Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Hehe another leap of faith and we have god, based entirely on nothing. Why was it people from 2000 years ago know everything about god and now adays nothing there isn't anybody with anything new. Why would a bloke who I've never met die for my sins, for which I have none. And why when I spend my life being nice to others, because I want to and don't beleive in God, do I go to 'hell' what a load of crap. Why should the Bible be taken as anything other than a good novel. Personally believeing in a book based on numerous re-writtings, translations and personal interpritation is not my thing. Its too much like chinese whispers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeRider Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I think they should try to make a mackerel . . . now that would be impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elduderino Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 hehe. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firebird Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 LOL...I studied Environmental Science at university for a few years.. There is no way i can educate you creationiacs here in a couple of paragraphs.. U creationiacs should go to school and learn the facts..then make up your own minds.. and if u still think we were made from nuts and bolts down at the Ford Factory. then THINK AGAIN.. i mean come on..comments like. ....." we were taught dinosaurs were extinct from an ice age, now we know it was an asteroid"... i mean, HELLO..is there anybody there? What do u think triggered the ice age! P.S- there is no life after death, no reincarnation, no heaven.. we die and rot in the ground..PERIOD.. sorry if i upset your little world :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elduderino Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I can't stress that point enough Firebird, education first. Its quite alarming the amount of people who would rather believe in creationism because they get hung on the 'missing link', rather than examine evolution theory. Heres a link to a cool TV Documentry that was shown on BBC in the UK last year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/...ssinglink.shtml If after education, books and documentries people still don't believe evolution, then good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Rofl - the fossil record doesn't support it? You don't find many records of any people walking around 10 million years ago, do you? How about 100 million? A billion? Didn't think so. Any cats 3 billion years ago? Dogs? Dinosaurs? Exactly. On a sidenot: Evolution is not a theory. Things do involve. What IS theory is how the process has occured over the last 4 billion years. Let's get real and not expect scientists to unravel 4 billion years of nature in the matter of a few decades. Think it's theory? Take a step down to any University and argue your case with the local professors of molecular biology. And another misconception is that somehow evolution is against creationism (and vice versa). You can be a creationist and still accept evolution. They are NOT, I repeat, NOT conflicting ideas. Evolution just explains that things have changed in 4 billion years of history; not that God didn't create the universe, or life, or whatever. Those of you who might make this a religious debate are simply arrogant of the truth - but you have a right to your arrogance. No skin off my dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by JimF So why do they still keep teaching all those frauds as facts in the public schools when they have been uncovered by "real scientists" a long time ago ? Why don't they remove them from the books ? You know why ? Because that's the only "evidence" they have for evolution and if they remove it there would be nothing to back it up. I think both creation and evolution are based on a belief. YOu can't possible prove either one. And that's why I think evolution, just like creation, should not be taught in schools at all. At least not as a proven fact. AS a philosophy yes, but as a proven fact ? NO. Uh, I beg to differ, Evolution can quite easily be proven to exist. Your understanding of it is just flawed. Ever heard of HIV? Part of the reason that HIV is so virulent is that fact that it evolves so quickly. Things which may "work" against one "form" of it may not work on another. Evolution is a gradual process or change as a result of natural selection. You think there were as many types/species/whatever of dogs today as there were 3000 years ago? You're damn right there wasn't -- man has influenced their evolution and selected for specific features. That's why you see the wide variety of dogs you see today -- ranging from basset hounds to ****er spaniels. If I take a population of animals, kill off all of them with a specifc trait (say, long hair), then I will have selected for short hailed animals. Short hail will (eventually) become a dominant trait in that animal. Evolution is that same way; minus human intervention, and primarily influenced by a species ability to reproduce. Seriously. Think before you speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toxicfume Veteran Posted April 17, 2002 Veteran Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by semifamous Nothing to show his presence? What are you talking about? Have you not read of the many signs He performed for His people in the Old Testament? Parting the Red Sea, providing bread from heaven, preceding them with a pillar of fire by night and a cloud by day, leading them to His promised lane, etc. Then coming to earth as a man performing miracles that were witnessed by many. If you would like to contest the fact that Jesus Christ actually lived and that he did all of the things mentioned in the Bible, I believe you will find much discouragement... (Check out a book called "The Case for Christ" by Lee Stroebel on this subject, if you're open-minded about the subject at all.) I am not sure if all these events had even actually taken place at that time? since there is nothing to back it up now, no witnesses, or anything. But I remember reading an article in the TIME Magazine, quite long ago(3-4 years?), about the possibility of all these events, and they wrote, it could have all occured due to the weather conditions and people's ignorance at that time. Sorry, i don't have the link to the article, but the title was something like..."Answers to the events in ...(totally forgot the rest:ermm:)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauf Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 My take on the meaning of life (in a nutshell) and how it fits with creation (possible tangents and incomplete thoughts ahead...to fully cover every aspect would probably fill many books...oh wait, it has.): I believe the meaning of life, why we are here, is to give glory to the Creator. God is love, but I believe that God is most passionate for His own Glory. As a magnificent Creator, he deserves all the glory the universe could possibly offer and beyond. According to the Bible, Man is the most unique creation in the entire universe, including the angels. For the Bible says that God created man in His own image and likeness. It is no wonder then that every individual seeks after his own glory. God never had any need for anybody to love as some churches may preach. God has no need of us at all, but imagine God as being so magnificent and marvelous beyond our time bound comprehension, that to not have anything exist outside of Him, to give Him the utmost of praise and glory due to Him, would be unthinkable. So if the Earth is only 6000 years old, and God has been around forever, why didn't he create us long ago? I can't answer that, but I know that God invented time, and because we humans are limited to the realm of time, to try and comprehend there not being any such thing as time, or passage their of, is truly beyond our understanding. It is also amazing to me that people try to limit God with their own reasoning (everyone has been guilty of this). How can we try to apply our life cycle of conception, birth, life, and death to God, our own creator, who is absolutely perfect and not affected by such things. Our arrogance and pride in our own intellect and knowledge and scientific reasoning, cannot hold even the most brief shimmer of light against God's wonder (for lack of a more worthy word). That is why I believe that there will be an eternal afterlife. Those that have accepted Christ's sacrafice on the cross, will be allowed to join God and Christ in heaven, and have the opportunity to praise and marvel at Him for all of eternity and never be quenched (which is a good thing when dealing with the most awesome being in the entire universe). Okay, sorry for going totally grand, and I hope I haven't lost anybody, but that is quite exciting to me. One analogy that I think about is that of a toymaker. I try to picture a toymaker who has made some toys. If those toys could think for themselves, how could they possibly claim to know everything about their maker. Will they refuse to believe that he exists, if he only shows himself through his other creations. As far as science goes, I have heard much of the arguments for creationism and evolution. Although I am not a scientist and probably couldn't logically explain all the details of an atom or even understand it to a scientific degree, there are creation scientists that have devoted their lives to investigating earth science and events and relating that to supporting evidence in the Bible. Their information (in my mind) is much more comprehensive and makes much more sense than evolution. I don't believe that anybody can force their beliefs on another, and I know that God doesn't support that practice either. God did give us free will to choose Him out of love (love that is sometimes hard to understand). Sites that I recommend for unbiased (as unbiased as you'll probably get with creationism), would be www.icr.org and www.creationscience.com. The years of research that these scientists have put together is awaiting close perusal and examination for anybody who is interested. To debate opinion is one thing, which doesn't always lead somewhere...but to debate written and physical scientific evidence in search of truth is another. For those seeking creation evidence on this forum alone, you might be short changing yourself. The sites mentioned above have scientific journals that discuss significant points of the Bible and the science and evidence that supports them. If you are really looking for some compelling evidence for creation, I don't think you'll find any more solid evidence and reasoning for creationism anywhere, than what is contained on these sites (my opinion). God says in the Bible that all of creation is evidence for Him. If God exists and created all that we see (that includes science), then you can bet that there is evidence in this world of an intellegent creator. The best compiled evidence I can think of: The Bible, www.icr.org and/or www.creationscience.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icie Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 JimF: I wasn't personally saying that Christianity was a fraud. I was quoting those who did. In fact, I would be one of the first to say that Christianity was NOT a fraud. tauf: One of my points in Creation vs Evolution thread was exactly like yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by icie but one has to admit that any system coming from humans would be biased, within them instilled the emotions of the author. Thus, a scientific journal would of course be biased towards evolution. In fact, one could have doubts that the case for evolution is really as strong as many believe. You were told that, or you read it from somewhere. That doesn't mean its right. Some think of religion as one of the biggest hoaxes perpetuated in human history, but who knows? Science might be a hoax also. Wrong. A scientific journal would be "biased" towards the available evidence. If the evidence showed that creationism were truth than it would show it. Many people just don't understand the concept of science. Teaching creationism in schools as if it were a valid science is like holding sex education classes during Sunday mass. both are in a totally inappropriate place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by JimF So why do they still keep teaching all those frauds as facts in the public schools when they have been uncovered by "real scientists" a long time ago ? Why don't they remove them from the books ? You know why ? And what "frauds" would that be? Because that's the only "evidence" they have for evolution and if they remove it there would be nothing to back it up. Here you are speaking of creationism. I think both creation and evolution are based on a belief. You have the right to believe this, even if you are totally wrong. Evolution is not based on belief as creationism is. There are mountians of evidence in favor of evolution yet there is totally nothing which is credible, verifible, nor unbiased in favor of creationism. Another example of something which can be both a theory and a fact is gravity. We don't fully understand how and why it works, but we do know that it does exist. Are you going to stop believing in the theory of Gravity just because you don't fully understand it? YOu can't possible prove either one. And that's why I think evolution, just like creation, should not be taught in schools at all. At least not as a proven fact. AS a philosophy yes, but as a proven fact ? NO. Oh, please. Evolution has been proven beyond a doubt to exist. Even the Church as accepted it as a fact. Creationism is belief only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by JimF icie: Christian religion can be backed up by real eyewitneses who actually died for what they believed. Muslims die for their beliefs all of the time now, does this mean that the Islamic god is real? Praise be to Allah. People die for lies all the time all throughout history. This doesn't make their beliefs any more true. Evolutionists tend not to be stupid people. As for your so-called "real eyewitneses" without any real hard evidence they are no different than those who claim to see bigfoot, the lockness monster, and UFOs. They all belong in the National Enquirer. I wonder if evolutionists would die for evolution. Many miracles back Christianity up also. Ever heard of apparition in Fatima, Lourdes. Medjugorie ? All have been proven to be mass delusion, not fact. In some countries people see religious icons, in others they see UFOs. These things prove nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by TimeRider God doesn't allow that . . . people do. -TR So, your god has no real power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icie Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 whats with the multiple posts and religion bashing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by icie whats with the multiple posts and religion bashing?? What's with all the posts bashing science? Religion and science are two totally different things. Science is based on facts wheras religion is based on belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeRider Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 So, your god has no real power? I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. We are a species of free will, if there is killing in the name of God, we're the ones who allow it. I've always loved that one . . . why is it so easy for people to accept that God would allow some bad thing to happen . . . yet they fail to give him credit for all the good. Let's just say that I don't believe that God intercedes in the works of man in that way. There wouldn't be much point to life if our every move and decision were monitored by Him. We need to decide for ourselves what kind of a world we want to live in. I would also like to point out that there are some pretty well educated Christians out there, so simply going to University is not a "cure" for the mass delusion. I wouldn't suggest argueing Creation vs. Evolution with a Molecular Biologist andy more than I'd suggest that you argue Civil Law with a Circuit Court Judge. Evolution and Creation are not mutually exclusive. -TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by TimeRider I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. We are a species of free will, if there is killing in the name of God, we're the ones who allow it. I'm only putting the words you had said. I've always loved that one . . . why is it so easy for people to accept that God would allow some bad thing to happen . . . yet they fail to give him credit for all the good. Maybe because there are more bad than good. Let's just say that I don't believe that God intercedes in the works of man in that way. There wouldn't be much point to life if our every move and decision were monitored by Him. We need to decide for ourselves what kind of a world we want to live in. You just made your god irrelevant. We don't have as much free will as we would like to delude ourselves into believing we do. We are controlled by our instincts more than we would like to admit. I would also like to point out that there are some pretty well educated Christians out there, so simply going to University is not a "cure" for the mass delusion. I wouldn't suggest argueing Creation vs. Evolution with a Molecular Biologist andy more than I'd suggest that you argue Civil Law with a Circuit Court Judge. It's called compartmentalization where even a well educated person can still believe in the fairy tales of religion. Educated people are human to. Evolution and Creation are not mutually exclusive. It was never the purpose of evolution to state how life was created, only how it came to be like it is now. Evolution is science, fact. Creationism is religion, belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icie Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 evolution is not fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimF Posted April 17, 2002 Author Share Posted April 17, 2002 The only "evidence" evolutionists have for their hteory is examples like: 1. bacteria becomming resistant to certian drugs That's not evolution, but adaptation. It is still a bacteria. It didn't become a fish or a tomato. Show me scientifically how this proves that bacteria changed into a human ? 2. We have variety of dogs. They are still dogs. You can crossbreed dogs as long as you want but you will never get a fish or a tomato or whale. It will always be a dog. This is called variation within the kind. This variation has limits and that's why you will always get a dog. I give you a pair of dogs and I challenge anyone of you to produce a horse or a cow. Can't do it ? You need billions of years ? Well then I'm sorry, but this is not demonstratable. This is something YOU believe may happen and therefore can't be considered a science. True science can be repeated, tested and demonstrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunnios Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 originally posted by icie evolution is not fact. right back at ya neither is creationism science doesnt claim to know anything it provides theories that fit the facts evolution has a basis in sound reasoning and sense creationism claims to know everything it provides no theory other than the apparent "evidence" of criticizing evolution, and it answers questions on grounds of "your cant question that, you must have faith" creationism .,..... HA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimeRider Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 I'm only putting the words you had said.No . . . you're putting your words.Maybe because there are more bad than good. Maybe because we like to credit man for the good and blame God for the bad. Maybe because we take good for granted and are only aware of the human condition when suffering is allowed. You just made your god irrelevant. We don't have as much free will as we would like to delude ourselves into believing we do. We are controlled by our instincts more than we would like to admit.Says you . . . If you feel that the only purpose of a supreme being is to rain down fire and brimstone as a behavior modification tool then you don't understand faith very well. Be that as it may for someone arguing the scientific point of view you certainly lack the understanding of something as basic as instinct. Human beings have very few instincts. The threshold for determining an instict is simple . . . If "A" then "B" and only "B." For example if a Robin builds a nest, it builds a Robins nest regardless of where it builds it. It does not build a Blue Jays nest. That is an instinct. There are only two known situations where this is true of humans. One is a baby's suckling response to anything put in it's mouth, the other is a baby holding it's breath when immersed in water. Beyond that Humans do not have instincts. We're an adaptive species that responds to drives like hunger and procreation. We have a great deal of free will with the exception of those who live under a regime that stifles free will. Beyond that man as a species, being at the top of the food change we have complete and total free will. It's called compartmentalization where even a well educated person can still believe in the fairy tales of religion. Educated people are human to. Thanks for clearing that up . . . I have no clue what compartmentalization has to do with my statement, but clear thinking has not been your trademark thus far so I'll take your word for it that at least one of us has an idea of what you're talking about. It was never the purpose of evolution to state how life was created, only how it came to be like it is now Is there an echo in here? I thought I just said that. I think you need to hit the books Sonny . . . -TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by icie evolution is not fact. Yes, it is. Even the Church had to accept this. I take it that you don't know what the term scientific theory means? Theory: 1. An organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOS482 Posted April 17, 2002 Share Posted April 17, 2002 Originally posted by JimF The only "evidence" evolutionists have for their hteory is examples like: 1. bacteria becomming resistant to certian drugs That's not evolution, but adaptation. It is still a bacteria. It didn't become a fish or a tomato. Show me scientifically how this proves that bacteria changed into a human ? Wrong, that is evolution. Evolution is adapting to one's environment long enough to pass these genes of survival along to the next generation. Your idea of evolution is incorrect. 2. We have variety of dogs. They are still dogs. You can crossbreed dogs as long as you want but you will never get a fish or a tomato or whale. It will always be a dog. This is called variation within the kind. This variation has limits and that's why you will always get a dog. Actually dogs are a form of wolf. I give you a pair of dogs and I challenge anyone of you to produce a horse or a cow. Can't do it ? You need billions of years ? Well then I'm sorry, but this is not demonstratable. This is something YOU believe may happen and therefore can't be considered a science. True science can be repeated, tested and demonstrated. Evolution doesn't work that way and evolutionary scientists never stated that it did. Yours is a cartoon version of evolution madeup be lying creationists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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