_Pablo Posted April 23, 2002 Share Posted April 23, 2002 Originally posted by syscrash2k You know what? if they take out ie, how the hell are we supposed to download anything else at all? I guess the non-settling States? proposed remedies (?NSPR?) would leave the nasty old ftp command line client intact (no API so it's not "Middleware"). Back to the days of ftp.microsoft.com to get an IE for Wfwg 3.11! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Originally posted by syscrash2k You know what? if they take out ie, how the hell are we supposed to download anything else at all? I guess we will have to either pay for a CD for IE or Netscrape, or, as mentioned by _Pablo, use the command line ftp client (if this is even left). If they want to get rid of all the middleware (which is present in every operating system, then Windows would not be anything. I don't care if it's MS middleware, Mac OS X has some of it's own software bundled, where is the DOJ folks??? NOWHERE TO BE FOUND!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are all screwing with MS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vraa Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 lol heh sorry i'm hypered up with all this buzz going around. screw the DOJ yall pretty much said everything.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faction Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 im gonna go ahead and change the title for ya.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Dorr Veteran Posted April 24, 2002 Veteran Share Posted April 24, 2002 No offense, but I find it funny how many of you defend microsoft's actions. It's one thing to produce a superior product and win users through it's superiority, but it's another thing to build an insufficient product and force it onto users using the leverage of another successful product. IE CAN exist as a separate product to windows. Sure, windows can use the IE technolgies underneath, that's fine becuase it's not exactly a merket to capitalize on. I'm sure no one in Netscape is really concerned with being able to control the browsing of you files, they just want you to use their browser. The problem comes in when you type in a web address in a normal file browsing window. Why doesn't IE pop up in a separate window? Why doesn't Mozilla pop up for me when I have it set to my DEFAULT browser? Becuase Microsoft is FORCING me to use their product. I can't even use Moz if I want to, thereby making this a monopolistic practice. As I stated earlier, Microsoft has a history of producing insuffcient products and attaching them to more successdul ones to squash competition. They do this not to be innovators, but to get their product to market first, to get it being used first, and to get people hooked on it first. Microsoft may be smart by using this tactic, but that doesn't make it legal. There are consumer protection laws for a reason... And one of the major issues that's been lost is microsoft's rather stringent licensing policies. OEMs aren't allowed to sell PCs with alternate OSes if they use Windows. They're not even allowed to seel OS-less pcs. Microsoft has got OEMs buy the nuts, but no one notices becuase they're the consumer, not the company. This is CLEARLY monopolistic. Remember, there is a DOJ case for a reason. They don't just throw cases around becuase they can. Microsoft has commited monopolistic tactics, and they need to be stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Why does OS X include middleware made from the same company that produced it just as Windows includes middleware that is made from Microsoft? RealNetworks forces unnecessary stuff on you when you try to play there file format. Why does the DOJ not go after them and AOL for what they have done???? Please do not tell me the analogy is innaccurate: if Apple can bundle their own products into OS X and RealNetworks takes up too much memory with advertising and a "message center," then why can't MS do the same? Either all companies can perform these practices, or none of them should (I prefer the latter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shockz Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Please do not tell me the analogy is innaccurate: if Apple can bundle their own products into OS X and RealNetworks takes up too much memory with advertising and a "message center," then why can't MS do the same? Either all companies can perform these practices, or none of them should (I prefer the latter). I agree with you, but people would say... since OS X has less people using it, then bundling software won't dramactaly change the software industry. If Windows how ever bundles software together, than that software type chances dramactally. Example: Microsoft puts in intergrated "whatever" in Windows, the compaines that make things similar to "whatever" would have less chance of competing since there is already something bundled in windows, and the consumer fells that since its already in windows, then why buy the same thing from somebody else. Since there are alot more people that use Windows... well you see the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbeast Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Some of the states just hate check out lines. let me explain. If OS's are devalued, then every one with a linux kernel will start pressing CD's...can you imagine the checkout lines at your grocery store, or the backs of magazines? You think the AOL CD coaster campaign is bad...wait til you have 15 free types of linux that you can subscribe to fighting against 15 types of Windows ("...just $9.99 a/mo!") and then OMG but the browser freaks... There will be free cd's EVERYWHERE! I've figured it out. This whole case against Microsoft is an insideous plot by the guys that make the silver plastic to make blank cd's...it's all some freakish get rich quick scam by the plastics industry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osiris Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 The States just have nothing better to do, ive said it once ill say it again the only people who are benfiting from this are the laywers, the consumer wouldnt benefit from this, MS wouldnt benefit from this, and the states wouldnt even benefit from this. The only ones that would benefit are its competitors, and thats really fair competition in whats meant to be a free market economy. And I cant believe the Federal US government hasnt put pressue on the states to drop it, think of all the Good MS does for the countrey, can you even imaginbe the taxes from, its assets and the revenue tacx and company tax MS would pay to the government each year, it would be enourmous and by prosecuting them your really only hurting your tax you get from them. Thirdly I hope MS do loose the case and shut up shop. Because it would cause the biggest backlast and what I would say as the first revolt in the IT era. Image all the corporations loosing there technical support and support coverage everything gone like that, it would be chaos, and MS could do it and I jhope they do to prove how abolsutley wrong the states where, because the government in those states would never get elected again, Fourthly Again I hope MS loose and shut up shop because they could simply open up under a different name in another country that sees the benefits of MS and publish there software there, and id much rather see MS operating in a true free market country then under America where every second day a new law suit is brough up agaisnt them. Face it people this action against MS makes no sense, I feel very strongly agaisnt this as it doesnt benefit the consumer one bit, anyone would think the lawyers are all pulling the string in these actions or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven P. Administrators Posted April 24, 2002 Administrators Share Posted April 24, 2002 Timdorr makes a very good point.. but even so, you cant force bad products down peoples throats.. Windows Millenium if anything proved how even the mighty Microsoft can flop out because it was rejected by most people. it WAS macintosh up until 95, that changed and everyone that didnt follow the innovative ideas of Microsoft (and its partners) lost out. Netscape is also proof of this. I used Netscape up till v4 then I went to IE because it was better 95 shipped with IE3 and I never used it because it was a bad browser XP also allows the default use of programs that allow the function (Netscape can be the default browser in XP for example) I dunno about Opera and Mozilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagerd0g Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Originally posted by syscrash2k You know what? if they take out ie, how the hell are we supposed to download anything else at all? Originally posted by _Pablo Back to the days of ftp.microsoft.com to get an IE for Wfwg 3.11! Ahhh, I remember those days... good ol' ftp. Luckily back then I had enough sense [and smarts] to get a browser that way. I used Netscape then and I use IE now because IMO, IE6 is better, for me. Anyhow... If Microsoft is forced to remove IE from Windows, then how will the ordinary users and computer illiterates (like my mom and dad) get the browser of their choice? Sure, they can go out and buy a CD but I bet they'd think "Why don't they just bundle this with Windows??!" and/or "I just paid $100 for an OS [that claims a rich Internet experience], why does it not have a browser?!" Did Microsoft one day just decide to bundle IE with Windows or did they bundle it because people [or beta testers] requested a web browser? In the end, consumers will get screwed. [American] Consumers are getting screwed now, with their taxes paying for the lawsuit; and afterwards paying for a product that probably will not work, then spend more money to make it work. I say Microsoft should move to Canada and pull the product out (or charge us Canadians less than the Americans;):p). A friend told me a Toronto radio station DJ said on air he emailed Billy about the subject. Billy replied along the lines of "Don't think that wasn't one of our options". Come on over eh, we won't sue you. :) The worst thing that would happen is make our dollar even worse. :p Sorry if I don't make sense today, weather patterns a changing and makes me light headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facktor Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 haha your signature cracked me up -- Tager It was definitely much needed comedy relief, after reading all the posts in this thread. As for Microsoft, the bottom line is money and power, not consumer needs. In the corporate world, many battles are waged daily however; these battles have more to do with positioning and money instead of the consumers. What these 9 states are doing against Microsoft is really pointless and a waste of taxpayer's money. If there was an issue, then the DOJ should be the ones who pursue Microsoft, instead of letting the states handle it. Since there are numerous states involved, they all do not share the same statutes of corporate laws and procedures, which I feel will ultimately go against them. However I do think it will provide a more uniformity across the country in dealing with special cases like this. Each state has different sets of laws and regulations. How can multiple states combine and go against one company, when many of their laws contradict each other? As for the anti-trust violations, why haven't these states gone after Texaco, Atlantic Richfield, GM, and GE? They are all huge conglomerates with a stake in multiple industries. Do you think that they all practice fair trade on a daily basis? The answer would be no, every company has practiced illegal and unethical procedures to gain money and power. Since Microsoft is relatively the "new guy" of the large conglomerates, they don't have the pull and power in Washington DC or the states like their blue-chip constituents possess. Microsoft has taken the consumer PC market and expanded it to all reaches of the world. Most of us would not be on this board if it wasn't for a Microsoft OS. As much as you dislike Microsoft, it is the company that has provided a lot of jobs to a lot of people in all industries. They may have not invented the desktop, but they did market and bring it to the masses. Even if it meant stepping on some toes during the process. How ironic it is for AOL to sue Microsoft, when it was Microsoft that enabled AOL to accumulate the majority of their 30+ million subscribers. Their contractual agreement was up with Microsoft, and they could not reach an agreement with Microsoft. Believe me, AOL would have benefited from another contractual agreement then to now sue them. They are going to rely on their Netscape browser to anchor the AOL 8.0 and possibly 7.x clients? We all know the quality of Netscape now, and the nightmares that will cause, when the new unsuspecting consumer realizes that their machine as been assimilated by Netscape/AOL/TW and there is nothing they can do without reghacks and tweaks. From what I've seen from internal builds, it completely takes over your windows machine, and even if you uninstall it, its traces are left there as a reminder. Besides, it's only a matter of time before AOL goes under fire, because of some lobbyist or politician get's ****ed off because they install AOL and it takes over their computer. Suddenly it will be wrong, but until they say it is, it's completely ok for the consumers to have to live with AOL's business tactics. Am I condoning what Microsoft has done in the past? No. They have done a lot of things that are considered "unethical" and perhaps violated some corporate laws. But what I say is that all companies are in violation then, especially the major conglomerates. Every company out there with lots of stakes in multiple industries have practiced unethical and perhaps violated or bent corporate laws. The tech sector which Microsoft is a part of has not been around long enough. So there are not as many lobbyists or powerful special interest groups to sway the government to their favor. Power and Industry is still the most popular lobbyist group, so they hold the keys to the government. It depressing to see the US Government being influenced on daily basis, but it is a reality. Government officials are paid off by special interest groups and in return politicians represent them, not the people. So brings me to my last point. What gives politicians the right to sue or represent a case concerning unethical practices, when Politicians are notorious for advancing their careers and bank accounts through unethical and illegal practices? It's a complete circle jerk of corruption. Special Interest groups > Politicians > Government > Corporations > Special Interest Groups. Our current government is backed by power and industry, which is obvious since George W comes from an Oil Family. Power and industry doesn't like how the tech sector has cut down and devalued their industry. They cannot accept the fact that they are from an old world, where their industry was the leading sector. In this day in age, technology is the leading sector, but they don't have the lobbyists yet to support them. Believe me, the tide will change, and you will definitely see a president backed by technological lobbyists within 10 years. I just hope it's not a Larry Ellison supporter. He's completely gone mad (side topic-national ID program ring a bell?) That's my two cents worth Facktor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesseract Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Well said, facktor. My thoughts exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vraa Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I'm not sure how old (young if ur insulted) yall are but i'm 14 and even i'm kinda ticked off the the US Government. The DOJ should leave the consumer to be the only one to be able to make fun of Microsoft. Its out duty. No one said they could haul their big ass and sue MSoft. Thats not fair. I do hope MSoft wins.. by a huge gap/space/whatever you want to call it. As that modular windows idea comes up, all i have to say is WTF!!!11 IF that ever happens it'll be like the following. A conversation betwwen Ricky (me) and my "friend" bob. Ricky: Hey i got a new computer. Bob: COOL, what kind. Ricky: i built it. bob: what os? Ricky: Windows 2004 version 5478GASD1ER5J bOB: thats the one with IE8 right.. wait no thats the one oh NO NOOO Ricky: You ok? OH NO YOUVE GONE INSANE.. end play /me bows in front of audience sorry.. heh yall get the point. it'll be hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Dorr Veteran Posted April 24, 2002 Veteran Share Posted April 24, 2002 Originally posted by vraa I'm not sure how old (young if ur insulted) yall are but i'm 14 and even i'm kinda ticked off the the US Government. The DOJ should leave the consumer to be the only one to be able to make fun of Microsoft. Its out duty. No one said they could haul their big ass and sue MSoft. Thats not fair. I do hope MSoft wins.. by a huge gap/space/whatever you want to call it. As that modular windows idea comes up, all i have to say is WTF!!!11 IF that ever happens it'll be like the following. A conversation betwwen Ricky (me) and my "friend" bob. Ricky: Hey i got a new computer. Bob: COOL, what kind. Ricky: i built it. bob: what os? Ricky: Windows 2004 version 5478GASD1ER5J bOB: thats the one with IE8 right.. wait no thats the one oh NO NOOO Ricky: You ok? OH NO YOUVE GONE INSANE.. end play /me bows in front of audience sorry.. heh yall get the point. it'll be hell. uh...It's called consumer protection and MONOPOLIES. Please tell me your ghetto high-school at least taught you BASIC ECONOMICS. People got along fine downloading IE separately back in the win3.1 days. and I don't see any logistical reason why that can't happen now... I'm telling you, making IE's market share go DOWN would be the best thing for the internet, becuase then mayb e people would pay attention to standards... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiNZ Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 timdor Things move on 3.11 hmm your kidding right ,Internet back in those days was geeks play ground. Its now main stream . Mr and Mrs Jo Public dont want to mess around down loading they want to switch on click and use. Windows offers precisely want they want. Lets face computers are no longer back room toys used by nerds , they are main stream household appliances. This is a point that is lost on most of the Techies and company's like Netscape, IBM etc etc . Its buy plugin click and play , thus the success of HP Pavillion and such like. It is not Monopolistic what MS did , The DOJ and the screwy US justice system has got that very wrong . MS is in a very competitive market , there is a lot of competition , but alas in the most part its rubbish, thats why they dont succeed they simply are not as good as MS Windows. As for bundling , I use as an example , in the days of the Unbundled Win 3.11 cars did not have ABS , Airconditioning , CDs etc as standard equipement. They now come with all these factory fitted standard. To use the DOJ formula applied to MS these products should not be bundled with vehicles as the come off the factory floor, Would it not be anticompetitive if GM only installed say Clarion CD players as the do ( may not be that brand this just an example) and wouldnt Tecnica sue because there made in OuterMongolia CD isnt installed. Progress this is what it is , MS are just better at it , yes there will be casualties just like the Edsel ( spell check) some will disappear . It is not a crime to be successful , it is not a crime to produce better products , it is not a crime to be innovative. It is however for inferior product manufacturers to use a corrupt self feeding legal system to try to force their rubbish onto consumers instead of investing funds to try and make their product better. If these cases win then the loser will be the consumer , and that is also you and me. Cheers PS , does Netscape not work in Windows? yes it does ,can it be set as default ? yes it can . Like wise Real Player and let it take over your machine . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistocorugan Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 right timdorr, because now, unlike back when win 3.1 was the new kid on the block and 640 kb WAS enough, everyone that has a computer has a **** of a clue as to what most of 'the magical beige box' does...right? i mean, your mom could ftp and download a browser right? you know, what with most homes having computers now instead of just a small handful of people like when People got along fine downloading IE separately back in the win3.1 days. face the facts people, computers are just now getting to the point that tvs/vcrs/cable were back in the mid/late 80's. IE: everyone wants one because they make your life better, be it by allowing you to keep in touch with loved (or hated) ones, letting you get recipes for dinner, or just letting you keep track of your stocks and finances. not to mention the integration that tv and computers now share with most commercials having a website and most shows having some form of 'feedback', be it live or through a mailing list type of deal. computers are not an elitist toy anymore, and they're not for the fat guy that lives down the street that you only see out after the sun goes down yet who's electrcil bill you'll sometimes accidently get in your mail and it's a few grand a month because he's running his own kali network in his house for when his other fat friends come over and they all wanna get online and play doom 2... besides, look at other companies, like faktor said. GE owns everything. period. you name it, they have a thumb in that pie. be it the chair your sitting in, the tv you've got in the next room, or the car you drove home earlier, it seems that anything in the consumer market is less than 6 degrees away from GE. but no one picks on them...why? because no one cares. no one's out to get a few billion dollars by ousting GE from the commercial jet engine business. no one hopes to get channeled 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, uninterrupted into your homes by way of ousting GE from making tv components. no one remembers 2 years ago when GE was sitting high on the hog with a few billion under it's belt and jack welch richest man in the world. (mind you, that didn't happen, jack's got money, but nothing compared to bill) no one's tied GE to MAKING an economic category: namely, internet companies. think about it, did microsoft really play a part in making the internet what it was? not in the least. microsoft was merely the messenger...the means to an end. they were the cabbie that got you to shangri la, but they didn't know the exact way to get there, just that it was there and that that's where you wanted to be. sure microsoft has acted anti-competatively. that's already been established, though judge jackson was quite biased about it. but, what company in the tech industry hasn't? you think AOL was doing right by consumers when it bought netscape and nullsoft? hell no! they were gathering their chips for when sun played the big 'monopoly' hand on microsoft. honestly. aol is the ONLY big name i-net company that ISN'T in deep **** after the past two years. why? the got in bed with time-warner. good idea? of course it was. aol's been out to get MS every since they saw netscape was losing ground because they couldn't act fast enough, they've just been buying their time. (aside: you really think it'd take netscape 3 years to get netscape 4 up to 4.7 whatever it was at? no, they just sat on their hands and let microsoft run them over.) think about it, what're the big gripes in the lawsuit? embedding ie/oe in with the os, and now media player...well, looky here, aol just happens to own a competing browser AND media player, how about that? time to get an infulx of cash by way of lawsuit... MS isn't as dangerous/rabid 800 lb. gorilla as some would have you believe. remember kids, standards are a good thing . so are as few variables as possible. do you think it'd be a good idea to have 63 different widths of cars? how about 137 different diameter copper pipe for the plumbing in your house? or 27 different heights/widths of doors just because one of the top door makers was making money when all the door makers who weren't doing something right(locks a little too far to the right, didn't fit quite right, whatever) got ****ed and asked the governement to break them up and make the sandbox a safe place to play again? no... i've done enough design work in my time to know that going for the least common denominator is superb. no one will benefit from having a 'roll your own windows' day at the office. no company will be able to turn a profit if they're constantly having to support 168 different platforms. you may as well make every software company close up shop now and get someone else into the office space. i feel there's 3 ways this all could turn out for the better: 1) ms spins off a windows entity and it then becomes a governement held subsidiary. basically, windows becomes the standard computer os and governments are in control of it's distribution and use and care-taking. ms is still allowed to make other softwares, like office (until someone bitches about that at which point we go through the whole process again), it just transfers all rights to windows to the government branch and it in turn gets some tax credit for being a government contractor, kinda like boeing or *gasp* GE (there they are again) 2) the judge tells all the companies and states complaining to go home and if they can't play in the sandbox then don't go outside. nothing changes, ms is allowed to innovate as it sees fit. ( and yes, they do innovate, even if you wanna just call it an 'embrace, extend' strategy, that's still innovation...just because wood is not a new thing doesn't mean i can't build a unique table and it not be innovative plus build one for everyone and their brother) or 3) a watchdog group is setup to oversee windows development and make sure ms is 'playing nice' all these people crying for 'the good old days' need to remember back to those days when getting the same piece of software running on two different machines, or hell, even trying to do work at home that you started at the office, was an exercise in futility because you couldn't be sure of anything at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mephistocorugan Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 damn you KiwiNZ for thinking like me ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vraa Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 sorry tim.. not in high school yet tho.. still 8th grade no eco here heh :p i know its consumer protection.. but isn't this like what happened with trying to get MS breaken up? break up windows? a lot of the people out there are n00bz.. i ask whats ftp... they look clueless today when i got home i switch to techtv call for help and i see two girls being quiesiotned.. its sad.. if anyone saw that go ahead and explain i saw only like two quiesitons about baskin robins and aol charging people like AOL have corrupeted the minds of the n00bz.. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tagerd0g Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 Well said facktor, KiwiNZ, and mephistocorugan, I couldn't agree more. Ya'll summed it better than I did. Maybe I should get off the Benadryl. :D Originally posted by facktor haha your signature cracked me up -- Tager Hehe, thanks. I try to use one liner jokes but it's hard to find one that tops this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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