jamatfu Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Saw this over on Rudd-O, thought it might enliven the God dsicussion a bit:http://www.amautacorp.com/staff/Rudd-O/ An elegant satire that. But true in many ways. Even as a catholic, I cannot hold, as many do, that the bible is literal. These few points deftly illustrate that. 585191485[/snapback] 3:19 Why then was the law given?39 It was added40 because of transgressions,41 until the arrival of the descendant42 to whom the promise had been made. It was administered43 through angels by an intermediary.44 3:20 Now an intermediary is not for one party alone, but God is one.45 3:21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God?46 Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.47 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned48 everything and everyone49 under sin so that the promise could be given?because of the faithfulness50 of Jesus Christ?to those who believe. ~Galatians The good news of the Gospel is that we no longer live by the laws of Moses - we live by faith in Christ, as Wolvereen pointed out. So satire, maybe - but not a valid criticism of the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolvereen Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Anyway, Wolvereen, I hope you didn't consider my replies to be of a mocking character, they weren't meant to be. I've studied the Bible from beginning to end numerous times and it just amazes me every time how anyone still can manage to believe. I could understand how one could want, or hope, or wish for a nice god to exist, but to believe? Don't get it. 585192145[/snapback] Not at all, I was jsut making a generalization. About half of my good friends are believers, half are not. I pray for them all. :-) You just never know where these typs of threads could go. Regarding the law above. The Bible DOES tell us as pointed out above too, to render unto Caesar what is due to Rome. Basically, as a believer, you are still subject to the laws of the land. As "jamatfu" properly pointed out, the laws of Moses are VASTLY different from that of Christ. Both are still even different from the laws of the land today. For those that aren't believers and don't know, the Old Testament was an old commitment to God. When Jesus came, and the New Testament starts, a NEW promise is made. His death rendered all of our sins cleansed. In addition, it made a new commitment with God that does not require sacrifice of animals to forgive our sins (another Old Testament activity that some like to point out makes Christians hypocrits). That is why Jesus is reffered to as the "Lamb of God". He was the unltimate/final sacrifce. In addition, the 10 Commandments were updated and thus Christians believe now in 11 commandments. Jesus said "A NEW commandment I give you, love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By doing thus, all men shall know that you are my desciples" (John 13:34) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I believe in God b/c I have faith and believe that the word of God (aka Bible) is a hard truth. I believe it backs up the case for God over and over again.585190603[/snapback] As a person who takes the Bible as 'hard truth', I have a few questions: 1) What is your stance on the age of the planet? Do you believe the planet was created som 6,000 years ago as I believe the Old Testament states? If so, what is your take on civilizations that existed more than 6,000 years ago...or for that matter, anything that existed before 6,000 years ago? We have human remains that are hundreds of thousands of years old. Heck, recorded history goes back farther than 6000 years. Then there are the dinosuars and ever other fossil that date back millions of years. I've heard some say that carbon dating is a farce. I've heard other say that dinosaur fossils were put in the ground by God when he created the Earth. I was curious what your standpoint is on the issue. Now if you don't believe in a 6,000 year old Earth, how can you say the Bible is 'hard truth'? Wouldn't the Bible be up for interpretation at this point? And if that's the case, why stop at the age of the planet? 2) What is your stance on the fate of believers in other religions? There's Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and a whole myriad of Asian religions for starters. What about ancient religions? Egyptian, Roman, Greek, the various religions of Central American tribes and African peoples? Do they go to hell? Purgatory? Surely not Heaven. And then there's the fact that believers of every one of these religions are just as certain of their faith as you are of yours, so how can anyone be certain which faith is the correct one? Also, if God created the Heavens and the Earth, why did it take so long (some 2,000 years if you believe the earth is 6,000 years old) for anyone to get it right? I've just never gotten a straight answer on any of this stuff from someone of your level of faith, so I figured I'd take another crack at it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterHaze Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 god?, are you there? I don't think he goes to these forums :p Anyways I don't know really. I'd like to believe there's some 'god' out there but I find it too hard to believe in, especially with there being no proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlogank Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 Well, I do believe in God. I believe that in order to believe in Him, it requires faith, which means that there is not going to be 100% hard evidence he exists. But if you look at creation and life and how earth is made and the timing of everything that happens, that is all the proof that I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 I don't think he goes to these forums :p Anyways I don't know really. I'd like to believe there's some 'god' out there but I find it too hard to believe in, especially with there being no proof. 585198005[/snapback] You're never going to see 'proof' of God's existence. To look at it logically (not that you can really look at religion logically): - Religion (Judeo-Christian religions in this case) requires faith in God's existence - There is no need for faith in something that is proven. For example, you don't have faith that you own four pairs of blue jeans because you can open your closet and count them, thus proving their existence. - If God were proven to exist, no one would need to believe, or have faith anymore. It would be hard fact. - Without faith, religion falls apart Therefore, proof of God's existence is impossible...at least that how I look at it. You either believe or you don't. Anyone who says they "know" God exists is just misusing the English language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MateoGWJ Posted December 30, 2004 Share Posted December 30, 2004 3:19 Why then was the law given?39 It was added40 because of transgressions,41 until the arrival of the descendant42 to whom the promise had been made. It was administered43 through angels by an intermediary.44 3:20 Now an intermediary is not for one party alone, but God is one.45 3:21 Is the law therefore opposed to the promises of God?46 Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.47 3:22 But the scripture imprisoned48 everything and everyone49 under sin so that the promise could be given?because of the faithfulness50 of Jesus Christ?to those who believe.~Galatians The good news of the Gospel is that we no longer live by the laws of Moses - we live by faith in Christ, as Wolvereen pointed out. So satire, maybe - but not a valid criticism of the faith. 585192232[/snapback] Ah, but you see, the faith of Christ does not simple negate everything in the Old Testament, otherwise, we wouldn't even need it. The fact is, yes, its satire, but it's also somewhat true. Know my share of people who claim that the Bible is the literal word of God, start to finish, Old Testament and New. I bet you do to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted December 30, 2004 Veteran Share Posted December 30, 2004 As a person who takes the Bible as 'hard truth', I have a few questions:1) What is your stance on the age of the planet? Do you believe the planet was created som 6,000 years ago as I believe the Old Testament states? If so, what is your take on civilizations that existed more than 6,000 years ago...or for that matter, anything that existed before 6,000 years ago? We have human remains that are hundreds of thousands of years old. Heck, recorded history goes back farther than 6000 years. Then there are the dinosuars and ever other fossil that date back millions of years. I've heard some say that carbon dating is a farce. I've heard other say that dinosaur fossils were put in the ground by God when he created the Earth. I was curious what your standpoint is on the issue. Now if you don't believe in a 6,000 year old Earth, how can you say the Bible is 'hard truth'? Wouldn't the Bible be up for interpretation at this point? And if that's the case, why stop at the age of the planet? 2) What is your stance on the fate of believers in other religions? There's Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and a whole myriad of Asian religions for starters. What about ancient religions? Egyptian, Roman, Greek, the various religions of Central American tribes and African peoples? Do they go to hell? Purgatory? Surely not Heaven. And then there's the fact that believers of every one of these religions are just as certain of their faith as you are of yours, so how can anyone be certain which faith is the correct one? Also, if God created the Heavens and the Earth, why did it take so long (some 2,000 years if you believe the earth is 6,000 years old) for anyone to get it right? I've just never gotten a straight answer on any of this stuff from someone of your level of faith, so I figured I'd take another crack at it. Thanks. 585197954[/snapback] I'd like to know the answers too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 Another question for wolvereen: A week ago or so I was watching a program on History Channel about the history of the Bible. One segment concerned the Gospel of Mark. A scholar made note that the earliest existing version of Mark's Gospel (supposedly written by Mark himself or one of the first copies) ends in a completely different fashion than today's version. In this earliest copy, the book ends without Jesus appearing to his disciples after the resurrection. It ended with the women fleeing the opened tomb in fear. It was suggested that today's "less intense" ending was created by a scribe sometime after the 2nd century AD. What is your opinion in this matter? If the Bible is to be taken as hard truth, then either Mark was wrong when he wrote his Gospel, or the current version of the gospel is wrong. I don't imagine how the former could be true, since that would mean the original Bible was wrong, and the Bible is supposed to be the word of God. If the latter is true, that means the book you've been taking as 'hard truth' isn't exactly has hard as you once thought. Again, I'm just curious as to what someone of your position thinks of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgeburner Posted December 31, 2004 Share Posted December 31, 2004 How could you possibly create a topic like this, on such a diverse forum, and NOT expect flaming/trolling/problems? :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I really don't want to let this thread die, because I'm still awaiting responses from John_M and wolvereen, and I'd be mighty disappointed if they didn't get ample opportunity to reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prozak Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 ok this topic is huge lol I'm just going to say what I believe and see who agrees lol. I don't believe in god but here is my "theory" on the bible and god and all that stuff, It was created by us for something for us to believe in, Think about this if your family was in danger you would do anything you could to save them from that danger, you would change who you are to save them sell everything you own stop anything you are doing to save them. But what if you dont have a family? what if you have no one to save, you continue to do what you are doing, God was created by us to give people something to work towards someone who needs saving, Yourself, if you be good and dont steal or kill you will save yourself from hell. People needed something to believe in to also explain all the mysterys of science that at the time of the bible creation could not be explained. "Wow you just made fire, No I dont know how, it must have been a devine being" ? It makes sence. But this is just my opinion and I dont push my opinion on anyone else. You can believe what ever you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain of the LearJets Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Yes. i believe that there is a god.. however i don't believe in the fact that he is all time greatest creator if you like you can call me scientologist cause there is an explanation, i just don't think he is the explanation. but i DO believe in him but no church for me! no siree!! well... I like lear jets so im gonna go design one now talk laters!!!! I preach Lear jets to anyone an every thing......see ya mate's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 ok this topic is huge lol I'm just going to say what I believe and see who agrees lol.I don't believe in god but here is my "theory" on the bible and god and all that stuff, It was created by us for something for us to believe in, Think about this if your family was in danger you would do anything you could to save them from that danger, you would change who you are to save them sell everything you own stop anything you are doing to save them. But what if you dont have a family? what if you have no one to save, you continue to do what you are doing, God was created by us to give people something to work towards someone who needs saving, Yourself, if you be good and dont steal or kill you will save yourself from hell. People needed something to believe in to also explain all the mysterys of science that at the time of the bible creation could not be explained. "Wow you just made fire, No I dont know how, it must have been a devine being" ? It makes sence. But this is just my opinion and I dont push my opinion on anyone else. You can believe what ever you like. 585213490[/snapback] I agree with the general drift of what you're saying. Religion as a concept was created by man in response to a lack of understanding of the world around them. If you look back to when human's first reached the level of intelligence where they began observing and interpreting the world around them, I'm sure many things did not make sense. Fire, lightning, the huge sun and moon moving through the sky, why sometimes hunts would go well and othertimes they wouldn't, why crops would grow well sometimes and othertimes not. Etcetera, etcetera. It only makes sense that man would attribute these things to something higher than themselves. Some good examples of this are the ancient religions. Central America. Africa. Rome. Greece. The religions of these peoples consisted of many gods, each who controlled one aspect of man's life. Over time, of course, religion evolved, just like everything else. Polytheism gave way ultimately to monotheism (except in the case of hinduism and a few other eastern religions). Religions mixed, borrowed and split. In my view, religion is a great thing, and a necessity of any intelligent species. Religion has done many great things for mankind (and some less than great things), but I feel the positives outweigh the negatives. Some say that a world without God isn't worth living in. I figure a world without the possibility for belief in God isn't worth living in. I mean, just imagine what it would be like if no one believed in a higher power. Sure, some function just fine (myself included), but there are also some people who want to believe in something more, and that's fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_INk Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Yes. i believe that there is a god.. however i don't believe in the fact that he is all time greatest creator if you like you can call me scientologist cause there is an explanation, i just don't think he is the explanation. but i DO believe in him but no church for me! no siree!! well... I like lear jets so im gonna go design one now talk laters!!!! I preach Lear jets to anyone an every thing......see ya mate's 585214280[/snapback] i've heard those lears are hard as hell to fly- true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 doubtful, and i am catholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikkiRox Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 i've heard those lears are hard as hell to fly- true? 585214290[/snapback] lmao....my friend cap'n lear jet hasn't flown one, he's just in love with them, and he's determind to design them and own his own airline company... :laugh: [/off topic] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazebee_ Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 looks like most of the answers on the poll is yes. and for me: yes :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 No. Religion is to intellect as soap is to dirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proph3t Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 As a person who takes the Bible as 'hard truth', I have a few questions:1) What is your stance on the age of the planet? Do you believe the planet was created som 6,000 years ago as I believe the Old Testament states? If so, what is your take on civilizations that existed more than 6,000 years ago...or for that matter, anything that existed before 6,000 years ago? We have human remains that are hundreds of thousands of years old. Heck, recorded history goes back farther than 6000 years. Then there are the dinosuars and ever other fossil that date back millions of years. I've heard some say that carbon dating is a farce. I've heard other say that dinosaur fossils were put in the ground by God when he created the Earth. I was curious what your standpoint is on the issue. Now if you don't believe in a 6,000 year old Earth, how can you say the Bible is 'hard truth'? Wouldn't the Bible be up for interpretation at this point? And if that's the case, why stop at the age of the planet? 2) What is your stance on the fate of believers in other religions? There's Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and a whole myriad of Asian religions for starters. What about ancient religions? Egyptian, Roman, Greek, the various religions of Central American tribes and African peoples? Do they go to hell? Purgatory? Surely not Heaven. And then there's the fact that believers of every one of these religions are just as certain of their faith as you are of yours, so how can anyone be certain which faith is the correct one? Also, if God created the Heavens and the Earth, why did it take so long (some 2,000 years if you believe the earth is 6,000 years old) for anyone to get it right? I've just never gotten a straight answer on any of this stuff from someone of your level of faith, so I figured I'd take another crack at it. Thanks. 585197954[/snapback] I would also like someone to take a stab at this. As for me, athiest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I would also like someone to take a stab at this.As for me, athiest. 585214542[/snapback] I'm starting to think no one wants to give an answer... In the words of one Ace Ventura, Pet Detective: "Nobody wants to play with me!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toology Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I do, and to Kistrel; Einstein: Jewish Newton: Christian Religion does not detract from intellect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I am a Christian. And I believe in God. Why? Here's an example.Most of the past month I have been depressed, wanting to sleep a lot and not get out of bed. Finally I got tired of it and asked my mom to pray to "God" that I would feel better and not be depressed any more. The very next day, I was no longer depressed and I felt 100% again. :) :D And I haven't been depressed since either. :yes: 585092724[/snapback] Congratulations... you have just discovered the power of suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 I do, and to Kistrel;Einstein: Jewish Newton: Christian Religion does not detract from intellect. 585217977[/snapback] Your comment would have so much more weight had you spelled my name correctly... My comment was a statement of opinion not an axiom. To all things there are exceptions and, indeed, intellect may thrive in spite of religion's best efforts to curtail it - you simply pointed out two of the most prominent examples. Far too many people are taught (and worse, are willing) to put aside facts to maintain their belief systems; for any topic but religion this is called delusion and is usually treated with medication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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