Kestrel Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 (edited) I would also like someone to take a stab at this.As for me, athiest. 585214542[/snapback] ... and while whoever decides to take a stab at it is so doing, how about answering this for me: 1. The Bible is considered to be the word of god and is the basis for a belief in a supreme being. 2. The Bible claims God is flawless. By transitivity, we must assume god, himself, has referred to himself as flawless. 3. If god is flawless and the Bible is the work of god then it follows that the Bible must be flawless. Most believers of the Bible do believe it to be flawless. 4. If the Bible contains flaws then it can't be the word of God as this violates (2) and (3). One could say errors are the result of human mistakes but if you assume that, then the Bible can not be THE word of god and you have no idea what IS the flawless word of god and what is the flawed word of man. 5. The Bible was transferred by word of mouth across cultures, across languages for hundreds of years before being transcribed to a material form. The likelyhood of the original story (regardless of whether you believe the author to be man or deity) surviving without modification is ZERO. Two simple experiments can prove this: (a) Pick a phrase in any language. Convert said phrase into a second arbitrary language. Finally, convert back to the original language. In the VAST majority of cases, using even the simplest sentences, the original and the doubly-translated messages will bear virtually no resemblance. (b) Take 20-30 people and seat them in a long row. Whisper a phrase into the ear of the person at the head of the line and have each person pass the phrase along to the person sitting next to them. Have the last person to receive the message speak it out loud. Again, the final message will bear little resemblance to the original message. Both (a) and (b) stand to modify a single sentence message on their own. Combining (a) and (b) results in a hopelessly mangled message bearing nothing remotely like the original. Now extrapolate this several orders of magnitude both for the size of the message, the length of the row and the number of languages involved and there's a statistically significant ZERO percent chance the Bible of today bears any resemblance to the original Bible. Therefore, even excluding the beliefs in a deity, it can clearly be seen that the Bible can not be the word of god. Since the Bible itself is the cause for a belief in a supreme being, the last leg of the belief system collapses. Now, for the final nail... the most heinous form of error.... contradictions. The Bible has well over 2,000 well-known DIRECT CONTRADICTIONS of itself in its own pages. All you have to do is Google "Bible Contradictions" and check them out for yourself. God is nothing but an imaginary, invisible man in the sky, a quaint effort by ancient man to explain his world in the absence of science. One could even argue that religion is nothing but primordial science. Edited January 3, 2005 by Kestrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jago_lfn Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 .... *finds another thread to view* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeebus McChrist Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Atheist. Besides, even if there was a God, why would he care about miserable little beings like ourselves? I mean, if the guy was so supreme, wouldn't he spend his time tampering with important things rather than messing with us? The great religious arguement! Watch magically as absoloutely no one changes their minds at all! I'm going to go grab some popcorn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 5. The Bible was transferred by word of mouth across cultures, across languages for hundreds of years before being transcribed to a material form. The likelyhood of the original story (regardless of whether you believe the author to be man or deity) surviving without modification is ZERO. 585220731[/snapback] While you make some interesting points in your post, I will contest this one. As far as the New Testament goes, there are copies of the gospels that date back to around 120 AD, and it is believed by some historians that the earliest gospels were written as early as 60 or 70 AD. Now as far as the Old Testament, I don't know for certain but I don't see how an Old Testament can exist without being written down. I'm sure some of the stories existed before the first Old Testament was written, but to claim that the entire Bible was trasnferred by word of mouth for hundreds of years is stretching the truth a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarix Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 ya know we keep debating it but nothing ever comes of it, this thread will go on forever with no point but yes and no answers until the end. i believe in rabbits fences cars people water ducks pencils clouds and cd cases , i have more faith in the weather man even tho hes always 100% wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 While you make some interesting points in your post, I will contest this one. As far as the New Testament goes, there are copies of the gospels that date back to around 120 AD, and it is believed by some historians that the earliest gospels were written as early as 60 or 70 AD.Now as far as the Old Testament, I don't know for certain but I don't see how an Old Testament can exist without being written down. I'm sure some of the stories existed before the first Old Testament was written, but to claim that the entire Bible was trasnferred by word of mouth for hundreds of years is stretching the truth a bit. 585222177[/snapback] That the Bible was spread by word of mouth for an extended period of time is a well-established fact. Bear in mind that educating everyone to read is a relatively new idea from around the 1800's. Before that it was considered a privilege reserved for the wealthy or those of status. BUT, let's assume for moment that what you're saying is correct and that the Bible has always been in written form since it was transcribed... that simply means that the large number of errors are from the original source. After all, if god, a flawless and omniscient being, decided to take the time to transcribe the Bible to man, a clearly important task, then he would pick someone who would perfectly transcribe his word without embellishment, deviation or error... and, of course, should an error occur, being omniscient, he'd know about that and would be able to correct the transcription error before the work as a whole was released to the unwashed masses. So there's a flawed document that is the word of god... but god is not flawed therefore the document can not be from god. The document is the basis for a belief in a higher power so without the document, there's nothing that says god exists and we have a classic case of a chicken laying the egg from which it, itself, hatched. Religion simply can not withstand an assault from careful, logical thought. All people have to do is open their minds and see the world as it IS rather than as men from 2000+ years ago tell them it is. It's all very well to enjoy the stories from the Bible or to tailor your life on the principles within, but to blindly accept everything in spite of evidence to the contrary, in spite of clearly human flaws is simple-minded and childish. Galileo, one of the greatest scientists of his day, and a man who directly opposed the teachings of the church because he KNEW his scientific studies proved them wrong recanted only when the church threatened to excommunicate him. Having come from a religious family, his belief system was severely shaken both through his research and his treatment at the hands of the church and many suspect he became an atheist as a result. He has a quote that applies: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect would have intended us to forgo their use." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 That the Bible was spread by word of mouth for an extended period of time is a well-established fact. Bear in mind that educating everyone to read is a relatively new idea from around the 1800's. Before that it was considered a privilege reserved for the wealthy or those of status.BUT, let's assume for moment that what you're saying is correct and that the Bible has always been in written form since it was transcribed... that simply means that the large number of errors are from the original source. After all, if god, a flawless and omniscient being, decided to take the time to transcribe the Bible to man, a clearly important task, then he would pick someone who would perfectly transcribe his word without embellishment, deviation or error... and, of course, should an error occur, being omniscient, he'd know about that and would be able to correct the transcription error before the work as a whole was released to the unwashed masses. 585222397[/snapback] What I'm saying is that the first written versions of the gospels appeared around 100 AD, give or take 30 years. The stories contained within may very well have been transferred mostly by word of mouth, but none of these illiterate people who heard the stories later went on to write a version of the bible. Remember, once it was written down the first time, it was only copied by literate scribes. Now, this doesn't mean that any errors come from the original source. You said yourself that if you translate a phrase to another language and back again it would change. Likewise, as scribes copied the Bible over the years, changes were certainly made. Stories were left out, others were added, translation mistakes were made, etc. For example, the earliest existing copy of Mark's gospel ends without Jesus appearing before his disciples after his resurrection. It actually ends with the women fleeing the tomb in fear. It's widely believed that a scribe altered the gospel at some time to give it a 'nicer' ending. I'm not contesting your claims that the Bible has changed since it was first conceived, I'm just saying that it's not because it was transferred by word of mouth. Once the Bible was written down, every written Bible was a copy of an already existing written Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 What I'm saying is that the first written versions of the gospels appeared around 100 AD, give or take 30 years. The stories contained within may very well have been transferred mostly by word of mouth, but none of these illiterate people who heard the stories later went on to write a version of the bible. Remember, once it was written down the first time, it was only copied by literate scribes.Now, this doesn't mean that any errors come from the original source. You said yourself that if you translate a phrase to another language and back again it would change. Likewise, as scribes copied the Bible over the years, changes were certainly made. Stories were left out, others were added, translation mistakes were made, etc. For example, the earliest existing copy of Mark's gospel ends without Jesus appearing before his disciples after his resurrection. It actually ends with the women fleeing the tomb in fear. It's widely believed that a scribe altered the gospel at some time to give it a 'nicer' ending. I'm not contesting your claims that the Bible has changed since it was first conceived, I'm just saying that it's not because it was transferred by word of mouth. Once the Bible was written down, every written Bible was a copy of an already existing written Bible. 585222631[/snapback] It's also widely believed by many that the Bible is hard & fast the 100% verbatim word of god. Any document of such uncertain origin and disproven content can not be taken seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 It's also widely believed by many that the Bible is hard & fast the 100% verbatim word of god. Any document of such uncertain origin and disproven content can not be taken seriously. 585223759[/snapback] I agree 100% with that. Remember though that many more people view the Bible as an interpretive tome and that the Word of God is not in the specific words and phrases of the Bible, but rather is found 'between the lines' as it were... in its lessons, morals and observations. Every religion has its fundamentalists, but don't be so quick to completely discount a religion because of their wayward beliefs. If you want to attack the foundation of christianity or religion in general, there are much better options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkv Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 god is mythical just like santa :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Hello ladies and gentlemen, once again, and I'm here to return those false statements made by jdb264c. I'm not complete with all the answers to them yet, but I will soon. Here are the ones I have now. jdb264c, in reply to your 17 paragraphs of either malicious intent or just false views from someone else or yourself, I have prepared the following facts to set right each of your false statements. ---- 1. In response to your quote that He "Creates Evil" A. Some people read verses such as this and claim that it means God creates sin. But their problem is in their knowledge and understanding of the word evil. They erroneously surmise that evil always means sin, but that is not the case. The word translated evil in scripture does not "necessarily" mean evil in the same sense that we understand evil in our day. We use the word evil today as a synonym for sin or wickedness, but that is not the case in scripture. The word translated evil is the Hebrew word [ra'], meaning something that is "not good." It is from a root word meaning to be spoiled, and by implication something that is not good. i.e., bad. It does not mean evil in the sense that we might think of the word today, but more correctly understood as bad or anything that is "not good" to us. For example, if a child receives a spanking, or we go through some adversity or anything which we deem not good for us, it is [ra'] or evil. e.g.: Jeremiah 24:2 "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad." That Hebrew word translated "bad" is the exact same word [ra'] that is translated as "evil." Yet, the fruit is not from any wickedness, nor is it sin, it is "bad" (evil) only in the sense that it is, not good to eat. Fruit is an inanimate object, and cannot be evil in the sense that we understand evil today. As a practical example, if I were to walk outside my house, trip over the steps and fall, it is a bad [ra'] thing, but it is not because of wickedness, nor is it sin. It is simply something which is in a sense, an evil (not good) thing. Unfortunately, in our day what is bad (or evil), and what is sin (or wickedness), are often regarded as one and the same, when in fact often they are very different. Evil can be defined as, spoiled, bad, adversity, trouble, sinful, misfortune, calamity, natural disasters, or suffering. It is quite clear that evil is not necessarily sinful. And likewise, the scriptures bear out this truth, consistently. Proverbs 15:10 "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Again, the word translated grievous [ra'], is the exact same word evil. Correction in this context is not evil (as we understand it to be wickedness), nor does it come from evil. In fact, in this context the correction isa good thing. This word [ra'] is used here to illustrate an unpleasant (bad) experience from the point of view of him being corrected, and cannot mean sin in this instance. It means a bad experience, an experience that is not good to him that receives it, even though 'ultimately' it is for their good. That is the way the word is used in Isaiah chapter 45. It is self evident that something bad "can be" sin, but something that we consider bad is certainly not always sin. Bad or evil things include a whole list of other non-sinful occurrences. For example, adversity or trouble are bad things to come upon us ([ra'] is also translated both adversity and trouble in scripture), but it is not sin. Psalms 41:1 "..Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble." That word translated trouble there is the exact same word translated evil or bad. There are different types of evil things. There are things which are morally or lawfully bad, which we call sin. There are things which are naturally bad, such as calamity, and then there are things which are experientally bad, such as adversity or correction. For example, a drought, a tornado or an earthquake is spoken of as a bad or evil thing. But it is not in any way sin for God to send an earthquake or a drought. Likewise, judgment day is an evil day, as man has to stand before God and be judged, but it is not a sinful or wicked thing. If one walks down the street and a building falls on him and kills him, it is a bad or evil thing, but it is not a sinful thing. And so when we read that God creates evil, it is not saying that God creates sin, because that is antithetical to the nature of God, and is contradictory to all God declares. James 1:13-14 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." He does not create sin, but He does create other bad or evil things. God creates hell, and that is a bad (evil) thing for people, but it is not sin, and it is perfectly consistent with God's Word to create it. God withdraws light, and thus creates darkness, but this is not sin. God takes away peace, and thus creates war, but this is not God sinning. God removes His hand of restraint from man's heart and it is hardened, but this is not God forcing him to sin. For God is "not obligated" to maintain peace, hold back war, or keep man's heart softened. And when we look at the very context of Isaiah chapter 45, it becomes clear that this is what God is saying. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:" Notice the contrast between these things. Light contrasted over against the darkness. And Peace contrasted over against Bad or evil. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. The Opposite of peace is war or adversity and trouble. And that is what God is saying. God establishes peace, and God brings evil by withdrawing that peace He has established. Because He's not obligated to bring man peace. He's not obligated to shine light upon every person. God bound Satan and God can loose him, He's not obligated to keep him bound. So you see, by taking away peace, God creates adversity and trouble as judgment upon the wicked for their unrighteousness. This is not sin or wickedness, it is justice. And scripture is replete with examples. Leviticus 26:25 "And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy." This is an example of the opposite of peace, as God sends all these bad or evil things as judgment against these people. It is a bad thing to the people who are under God's judgment, but it is not a sinful act of God. And we can see from the context of Isaiah that this type "evil" is what God is referring to. The opposite of peace and safety. If man disobeys God, He will send an evil upon him. In this case, the evil He sends is wicked man. Amos 3:6-7 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Sin is not God's work, it is the work of men who pervert God's righteous work. God sending evil upon man in the form of His taking off the restraint from wicked man that he would destroy a city is judgement, not sin. When we read in Isaiah that God creates evil, we must understand that the Lord is declaring His sovereignty. He is illustrating that the trouble, afflictions, and adversities [ra'], He sends are the punishments of sin, the judgments which are under His providence. As Job so patiently and humbly stated, shall we think to only receive good from God, and not the bad as well? Job 2:10 "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Evil at the hands of God is not sin, it is bad things which we do not like! God?s judgments, or his withdrawing His hand of protection is how God creates evil or trouble in our lives. The righteous judgment of God is not an unlawful or sinful act, it is exactly what man should expect of a righteous God. Righteous judgments. ---- 2. In response to your quote that "Evil Comes From the Lord" A. Was the "evil spirit" that God sent upon Saul an angel, or was it a demon? To understand the difference between the two, we have to understand the fate of the nephilim that were killed in the Flood. To do that, let's go back to the Book of Enoch. We've already seen from the Bible, the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Jubilees that the Watchers were locked in the Abyss for their sins. However, as additional punishment, God decreed that the nephilim, the children of the angels, would be destroyed from the face of the earth: ENOCH 12:4 . . . Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves 5 wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness 6 of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, the murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain." (The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles) The Bible teaches that a human being is made up of body, spirit, and soul (I The. 5:23; Heb. 4:12). The body is the physical part of a man, the spirit is the non-physical part, and the soul (Gr. psuche, Eng. "psyche") is the character or personality. When a person dies physically, their spirit (which has no consciousness apart from the body) returns to God who gave it (Ecc. 12:7). However, since the hybrid nephilim had both physical and spiritual natures, they were able to survive (in a fashion) the deaths of their physical bodies. These hybrid spirits, which were not part of God's creation, had nowhere to go when their physical existence ceased. The Book of Enoch tells us what became of the departed spirits of these crossbreeds: ENOCH 15:8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them. (The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles) The departed spirits of the nephilim became what we know as "demons." These entities are mentioned in the Old Testament (for example, see Lev. 17:7; Deu. 32:17; II Chr. 11:15; Psa. 106:37), and numerous times in the New Testament, where they are called "demons," "unclean spirits," and "evil spirits." One of the activities of evil spirits mentioned in the Bible is that of "familiar" or "divining" spirits. These demons appear to have the ability to rouse the spirits of the dead from their ordained sleep. They also seem to be able to foretell the future, to some extent. The first mention we see of these spirits in the Scriptures is a warning from God to avoid consorting with them or the mediums that contact them. LEVITICUS 19:31 "Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (NKJV) LEVITICUS 20:6 "And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people." (NKJV) LEVITICUS 20:27 "A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them." (NKJV) DEUTERONOMY 18:10 There shall not be found in thee one who purges his son or his daughter with fire, one who uses divination, who deals with omens, and augury, 11 a sorcerer employing incantation, one who has in him a divining spirit, an observer of signs, questioning the dead. (Brenton's LXX) I SAMUEL 28:7 Then Saul said to his servants, Seek for me a woman who has in her a divining spirit, and I will go to her, and enquire of her: and his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman who has in her a divining spirit at Aendor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he goes, and two men with him, and they come to the woman by night; and he said to her, Divine to me, I pray thee, by the divining spirit within thee, and bring up to me him whom I shall name to thee. 9 And the woman said to him, Behold now, thou knowest what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who had in them divining spirits, and the wizards from the land, and why dost thou spread a snare for my life to destroy it? (Brenton's LXX) ACTS 16:16 It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. 17 Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, "These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation." 18 She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her!" And it came out at that very moment. (NASU) The New Testament clearly records many instances where these evil spirits afflicted people by taking up residence within them. Below are a few of the examples available from the Scriptures. MARK 7:25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, "Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered and said to Him, "Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children's crumbs." 29 And He said to her, "Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter." 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left. (NASU) LUKE 9:38 Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, "Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child. 39 "And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth, and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him. 40 So I implored Your disciples to cast it out, but they could not." 41 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." 42 And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father. (NKJV) ACTS 19:11 Now God worked unusual miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them. 13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, "We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches." 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. 15 And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" 16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. (NKJV) ---- 3. In reply to your quote that He "Lies" A. Just as Achan the son of Carmi had transgressed the covenant of God, which he had commanded the people of Israel (But the people of Israel broke faith in regard to the devoted things (Joshua 7: 1)). He took the jewelleries and the beautiful mantle from Shinar, and hid them deep in the earth. He choose to put them away in the most obscure and hidden spot, where no one would known about them. He didn?t go far away to hide them, He had to be sure they were buried and hidden in a place very close to his heart. In fact that place was inside his own tent. His transgression had cost the people of Israel a very high price in the war against their enemies, and caused them very heavy causalities. He himself and his household and all he had were stoned to death and burned with fire. (Joshua 7: 25) Achan really hadn't known how to go about his commitments towards God, he stood between two paths, one was to have faith in God and keep his commands, the other was to steal and satisfy his covetous desire for a beautiful mantle and expensive jewelleries. He was greatly mistaken when he thought God would not see him or know about his wicked sin. He was expecting the Lord?s protection for Israel, and believed he would be able to escape his judgment for doing the wrong thing. (For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or bad). (Ecclesiasts 12:14) ---- I will post more in my next post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slipdisc210 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 another lat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 4. In reply to your quote that He "Delievers Job Into Satans Hands" A. To answer this question, look with me at what Satan said to God in: Job 1:11-12 (NKJV) "But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" 12 And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. Satan asks God to stretch out his hand against Job. God responds by giving Job over to Satan's power. Notice what happens: Job 1:19 (NKJV) "and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!" Who caused this wind that killed these young people? The text doesn't tell us who caused the wind to blow but Job does: Job 1:21 (NKJV) And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD." What had the "Lord" taken away? Well, for one thing, his children. Job says that God was responsible for the death of all his children. Was Job wrong in making this statement? Was it sin for Job to blame God for this? God's Word answers this question in the very next verse: Job 1:22 (NKJV) In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong. The Bible clearly teaches that God, and not Satan, has power over life and death. 1 Samuel 2:6 (NKJV) "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up. We want to blame everything that we feel is "bad" on Satan. But Scripture teaches that God controls all. Job not only accepted what God had done, he praised God for giving him the young people, and for taking them away. It was Gods decision, not Jobs and he knew that. ---- 5. In response to your quote that He is "Not Omnipotent or All Powerful" A. Judah is chosen to lead the Israelites against the Canaanites; the Israelites are rebuked by an angel; the death of Joshua; the apostasy of Israel; the failure of the Israelites to drive out the Canaanites. "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron." (1:19) After Joshua's death, the tribe of Judah was chosen to lead the nation against the Canaanites. But their faith wasn't as great as Joshua's had been. God had told them that "When you go out to fight against your enemies and you see chariots and horses and an army that outnumbers yours, do not be afraid of them. The Lord your God, who rescued you from Egypt, will be with you." (Cf. Deut. 20:1) Under the leadership of Joshua the Israelites had defeated enemies that had many horses and chariots, but when the people of Judah were faced with the very same implements, iron chariots and horses, they wimped out; they failed to place their trust in the Lord, they failed in their commitment, just as their ancestors had done, over and over again. As we do in this day, our very own selves. ---- 6. In response to your quote that He causes "Indecency" A. It's extremely easy to read one vurse and think that the Lord God wanted to show these people off for the purpose of Indecency, but those who think this are sorely mistaken. Read the following to see what really happened and why people are only showed the part of the chapter that sounds bad. The prophecies against Egypt and Ethiopia were reinforced by Isaiah being used by God to serve as a visible sign. For three years Isaiah had to walk barefoot and naked, thus depicting their future captivity by the king of Assyria. (20:1-7) Hence, these people knew that if they did not repent they would be conquered. They did not repent to the Lord God and were conquered, and they were stripped naked, as Isaiah had been. ---- 7. In response to your quote that He "Orders Stealing" A. Now, taking three different versus from the bible and putting them together like this makes it look like God is making people steal things that have not and/or will not be theirs is just a bad little paragraph. Fortunately, I have the truth about all three of these versus of scripture and why each is used. A1. "...and ye shall spoil the Egyptians" (Ex. 3:22): this is not an example of a moral blemish in the Old Testament, as alleged by some critics. The KJV suggests that the Israelites were to ?borrow? certain objects from the Egyptians. But there was never any intention of repayment. The King James translation is poor here; later renditions, including the NKJV, translate the verb sa?al by ?ask? (cf. Ex. 12:36; 1 Sam. 1:27). The same passage treats these goods a matter of ?spoil.? Actually, it was considered a form of payment for all the years the Hebrews had spent in slavery. The principle is set forth in Deuteronomy 15:12-18: ?If thy brother, a Hebrew man, or a Hebrew woman, be sold unto thee, and serve thee six years; then in the seventh year thou shalt let him go free from thee. And when thou lettest him go free from thee, thou shalt not let him go empty: thou shalt furnish him liberally out of thy flock, and out of thy threshing-floor, and out of thy winepress; as Jehovah thy God hath blessed thee thou shalt give unto him. And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and Jehovah thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to-day. And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go out from thee; because he loveth thee and thy house, because he is well with thee; then thou shalt take an awl, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maid-servant thou shalt do likewise. It shall not seem hard unto thee, when thou lettest him go free from thee; for to the double of the hire of a hireling hath he served thee six years: and Jehovah thy God will bless thee in all that thou doest.? In Exodus 3:22, underline the word ?borrow? and write in the margin: payment for slavery; see Deut. 15:12-18. A2. "...and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God" (Ezek. 39:10): The full area of this verse was: 39:9 "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:" 39:10 "So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD." This below explains the above verses of Scripture: The burning of the foe's weapons implies that nothing belonging to them should be left to pollute the land. The seven years (seven being the sacred number) spent on this work, implies the completeness of the cleansing, and the people's zeal for purity. How different from the ancient Israelites, who left not merely the arms, but the heathen themselves, to remain among them [FAIRBAIRN], ( Jdg 1:27, 28 2:2, 3 Psa 106:34-36 ). The desolation by Antiochus began in the one hundred and forty-first year of the Seleucidae. From this date to 148, a period of six years and four months ("2300 days," Dan 8:14 ), when the temple-worship was restored (1 Maccabees 4:52), God vouchsafed many triumphs to His people; from this time to the death of Antiochus, early in 149, a period of seven months, the Jews had rest from Antiochus, and purified their land, and on the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month celebrated the Encaenia, or feast of dedication ( Jhn 10:22 ) and purification of the temple. The whole period, in round numbers, was seven years. Mattathias was the patriotic Jewish leader, and his third son, Judas, the military commander under whom the Syrian generals were defeated. He retook Jerusalem and purified the temple. Simon and Jonathan, his brothers, succeeded him: the independence of the Jews was secured, and the crown vested in the Asmonean family, in which it continued till Herod the Great. A3. "As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies" (Deut. 20:14): Yet another unfull area. Your missing the previous verses that explain this one, and are also whats happened throughout history as well. 20:10 "When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it." 20:11 "And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, [that] all the people [that is] found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee." 20:12 "And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:" 20:13 "And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:" 20:14 "But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, [even] all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee." Deuteronomy 20:10-11 Instructions Concerning Sieges. - Vv. 10, 11. On advancing against a town to attack it, they were "to call to it for peace," i.e., to summon it to make a peaceable surrender and submission (cf. Judg 21:13). "If it answered peace," i.e., returned an answer conducing to peace, and "opened" (sc., its gates), the whole of its inhabitants were to become tributary to Israel, and serve it; consequently even those who were armed were not to be put to death, for Israel was not to shed blood unnecessarily. mac (OT:4522) does not mean feudal service, but a feudal slave (see at Ex 1:11). Deuteronomy 20:12-14 If the hostile town, however, did not make peace, but prepared for war, the Israelites were to besiege it; and if Jehovah gave it into their hands, they were to slay all the men in it without reserve ("with the edge of the sword," see at Gen 34:26); but the women and children and all that was in the city, all its spoil, they were to take as prey for themselves, and to consume (eat) the spoil, i.e., to make use of it for their own maintenance. I do believe your paragraph of misconceptions has been duely undone and found out. Nice try though, whoever you got this from is sly, but still on the wrong side of the table, hence, not unbeatable. On to the next mis-guided statement, number eight. ---- And some more in my next post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 8. In response to your quote that He "Made False and Unfulfilled Prophecies" A. It will be seen by inspecting the Hebrew text that the words, 'they shall serve them, and they shall afflict them,' are, from the accentuation, to be regarded as parenthetical; so that the passage, these words being omitted, would stand thus: 'Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs four hundred years.' The actual duration, however, neither of their servitude, nor of their sojourn extended over the whole of this period (see the note at Gen 15:16). "A stranger " [Hebrew, geer (OT:1616)] is usually derived from [guwr (OT:1481)] to dwell, so that it signifies a sojourner-one living out of his own country. But Aben Ezra maintains that it is rather connected with gaarar (OT:1641), to shake off fruit from a tree; so that in this sense it will denote a person or thing forcibly detached from the native soil. "Four hundred years." The statement is made here in round numbers, as also in Acts 7:6; but more exactly 430 years in Ex 12:40; Gal 3:17. Josephus also mentions the former number ('Jew. War,' B. v. 9, sec. 4; 'Antiquities,' ii. 9, section 1); and the latter ('Antiquities,' ii. 15, section 2). ---- 9. In response to your quote that He "Causes Adultery" A. Unfortunately, your source left out the story that goes with this. How sad of you to post all this so far without checking any of it out. Here goes. You will see in the verses below why your quote was a foolish one to add. 2 Samuel 12:1-13 The Lord sent Nathan to David. When he came to him, he said, "There were two men in a certain town, one rich and the other poor. [2] The rich man had a very large number of sheep and cattle, [3] but the poor man had nothing except one little ewe lamb he had bought. He raised it, and it grew up with him and his children. It shared his food, drank from his cup and even slept in his arms. It was like a daughter to him. [4] "Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him." [5] David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, "As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this deserves to die! [6] He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity." [7] Then Nathan said to David, "You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: 'I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. [8] I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. [9] Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. [10] Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.' [11] "This is what the Lord says: 'Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity upon you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. [12] You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.' " [13] Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. Nice try on this one, but yet again, a verse taken out of context, like all of yours so far, is not a definitive answer to the burning question in your mind. You know what the question is, same as all of us. "Why do I resist the truth?" Well, keep thinking about it. Meanwhile, on to number ten. ---- 10. In response to your quote that He "Kills Repeatedly" A1. "there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the 250 men that offered incense" (Num. 16:35): Remember that: I. Vengeance taken on them, v. 35. It is probable that when the earth opened in the camp to swallow up Dathan and Abiram a fire went out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men that offered incense, while Aaron that stood with them was preserved alive. This punishment was not indeed so new a thing as the former, for Nadab and Abihu thus died; but it was not less strange or dreadful, and in it it appeared, 1. That our God is a consuming fire. Is thunder a sensible indication of the terror of his voice? Lightning is also the power of his hand. We must see in this his fiery indignation which devours the adversaries, and infer from it what a fearful thing it is to fall into the hands of the living God, Heb. 10:27?31. 2. That it is at our peril if we meddle with that which does not belong to us. God is jealous of the honour of his own institutions, and will not have them invaded. It is most probable that Korah himself was consumed with those 250 that presumed to offer incense; for the priesthood was the thing he aimed at, and therefore we have reason to think that he would not quit his post at the door of the tabernacle. But, behold, those are made sacrifices to the justice of God who flattered themselves with the hopes of being priests. Had they been content with their office as Levites, which was sacred and honourable, and better than they deserved, they might have lived and died with joy and reputation; but, like the angels that sinned, leaving their first estate, and aiming at the honours that were not appointed them, they were thrust down to Hades, their censers struck out of their hands, and their breath out of their bodies, by a burning which typified the vengeance of eternal fire. A2. "the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died" (Num. 21:6): You really have to read through and understand this part of the Bible not to be fooled by this part. The text below helps alot. Num 21:4-9 I. The fatigue of Israel by a long march round the land of Edom, because they could not obtain passage through it the nearest way: The soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way, v. 4. Perhaps the way was rough and uneven, or foul and dirty; or it fretted them to go far about, and that they were not permitted to force their passage through the Edomites? country. Those that are of a fretful discontented spirit will always find something or other to make them uneasy. II. Their unbelief and murmuring upon this occasion, v. 5. Though they had just now obtained a glorious victory over the Canaanites, and were going on conquering and to conquer, yet they speak very discontentedly of what God had done for them and distrustfully of what he would do, vexed that they were brought out of Egypt, that they had not bread and water as other people had by their own care and industry, but by miracle, they knew not how. They have bread enough and to spare; and yet they complain there is no bread, because, though they eat angels? food, yet they are weary of it; manna itself is loathed, and called light bread, fit for children, not for men and soldiers. What will those be pleased with whom manna will not please? Those that are disposed to quarrel will find fault where there is no fault to be found. Thus those who have long enjoyed the means of grace are apt to surfeit even on the heavenly manna, and to call it light bread. But let not the contempt which some cast upon the word of God cause us to value it the less: it is the bread of life, substantial bread, and will nourish those who by faith feed upon it to eternal life, whoever calls it light bread. III. The righteous judgment which God brought upon them for their murmuring, v. 6. He sent fiery serpents among them, which bit or stung many of them to death. The wilderness through which they had passed was all along infested with those fiery serpents, as appears, Deu. 8:15. but hitherto God had wonderfully preserved his people from receiving hurt by them, till now that they murmured, to chastise them for which these animals, which hitherto had shunned their camp, now invade it. Justly are those made to feel God?s judgments that are not thankful for his mercies. These serpents are called fiery, from their colour, or from their rage, or from the effects of their bitings, inflaming the body, putting it immediately into a high fever, scorching it with an insatiable thirst. They had unjustly complained for want of water (v. 5), to chastise them for which God sends upon them this thirst, which no water would quench. Those that cry without cause have justly cause given them to cry out. They distrustfully concluded that they must die in the wilderness, and God took them at their word, chose their delusions, and brought their unbelieving fears upon them; many of them did die. They had impudently flown in the face of God himself, and the poison of asps was under their lips, and now these fiery serpents (which, it should seem, were flying serpents, Isa. 14:29) flew in their faces and poisoned them. They in their pride had lifted themselves up against God and Moses, and now God humbled and mortified them, by making these despicable animals a plague to them. That artillery is now turned against them which had formerly been made use of in their defence against the Egyptians. He that brought quails to feast them let them know that he could bring serpents to bite them; the whole creation is at war with those that are in arms against God. A3. "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound and I heal..." (Deut. 32:39): God is not the singular author of all evil--even when we understand that it refers to trouble and sorrow. Nothing in this verse states that God is the source of all evil. Man brings many evils on himself. Certainly, the declaration that God creates evil refers to His judgment of man's disobedience. That is, when man disobeys God and evil comes as the result of his disobedience, the God who is the only God is the source of that evil. He is the creator of it. Consider the following verses: Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. Psalm 75:7 But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another. Samuel 2:6-7 The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up. The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up. There are other verses, but you can understand the idea. Notice especially Deuteronomy 32:39 where the fact that God is the only God is placed alongside the idea that He kills and He makes alive. The Old Testament passages are dealing with pagan worshippers of many gods. They had a god for everything. In these verses, God is establishing the fact that everything that comes from any god comes from Him alone as the only God. ---- Those are my ten responses for now, and eleven through seventeen will be out later this month. As elusive and tricky as those paragraphs jdb264c posted are, and as hard as they are to prove to an ordinary person who believes those false statements, I am and will continue to try my best to right the wrongful things posted about my Lord and Savior. Please stay contined, until next time kids, when this final chapter will be unleashed and jdb264c's false statements finally set to shame as they should be. Thanks for reading, and God bless, John M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 There are no atheists in trenches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph3412t3h13 Posted January 9, 2005 Author Share Posted January 9, 2005 Hello ladies and gentlemen, once again, and I'm here to return those false statements made by jdb264c. I'm not complete with all the answers to them yet, but I will soon. Here are the ones I have now.jdb264c, in reply to your 17 paragraphs of either malicious intent or just false views from someone else or yourself, I have prepared the following facts to set right each of your false statements. ---- 1. In response to your quote that He "Creates Evil" A. Some people read verses such as this and claim that it means God creates sin. But their problem is in their knowledge and understanding of the word evil. They erroneously surmise that evil always means sin, but that is not the case. The word translated evil in scripture does not "necessarily" mean evil in the same sense that we understand evil in our day. We use the word evil today as a synonym for sin or wickedness, but that is not the case in scripture. The word translated evil is the Hebrew word [ra'], meaning something that is "not good." It is from a root word meaning to be spoiled, and by implication something that is not good. i.e., bad. It does not mean evil in the sense that we might think of the word today, but more correctly understood as bad or anything that is "not good" to us. For example, if a child receives a spanking, or we go through some adversity or anything which we deem not good for us, it is [ra'] or evil. e.g.: Jeremiah 24:2 "One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad." That Hebrew word translated "bad" is the exact same word [ra'] that is translated as "evil." Yet, the fruit is not from any wickedness, nor is it sin, it is "bad" (evil) only in the sense that it is, not good to eat. Fruit is an inanimate object, and cannot be evil in the sense that we understand evil today. As a practical example, if I were to walk outside my house, trip over the steps and fall, it is a bad [ra'] thing, but it is not because of wickedness, nor is it sin. It is simply something which is in a sense, an evil (not good) thing. Unfortunately, in our day what is bad (or evil), and what is sin (or wickedness), are often regarded as one and the same, when in fact often they are very different. Evil can be defined as, spoiled, bad, adversity, trouble, sinful, misfortune, calamity, natural disasters, or suffering. It is quite clear that evil is not necessarily sinful. And likewise, the scriptures bear out this truth, consistently. Proverbs 15:10 "Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die." Again, the word translated grievous [ra'], is the exact same word evil. Correction in this context is not evil (as we understand it to be wickedness), nor does it come from evil. In fact, in this context the correction isa good thing. This word [ra'] is used here to illustrate an unpleasant (bad) experience from the point of view of him being corrected, and cannot mean sin in this instance. It means a bad experience, an experience that is not good to him that receives it, even though 'ultimately' it is for their good. That is the way the word is used in Isaiah chapter 45. It is self evident that something bad "can be" sin, but something that we consider bad is certainly not always sin. Bad or evil things include a whole list of other non-sinful occurrences. For example, adversity or trouble are bad things to come upon us ([ra'] is also translated both adversity and trouble in scripture), but it is not sin. Psalms 41:1 "..Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble." That word translated trouble there is the exact same word translated evil or bad. There are different types of evil things. There are things which are morally or lawfully bad, which we call sin. There are things which are naturally bad, such as calamity, and then there are things which are experientally bad, such as adversity or correction. For example, a drought, a tornado or an earthquake is spoken of as a bad or evil thing. But it is not in any way sin for God to send an earthquake or a drought. Likewise, judgment day is an evil day, as man has to stand before God and be judged, but it is not a sinful or wicked thing. If one walks down the street and a building falls on him and kills him, it is a bad or evil thing, but it is not a sinful thing. And so when we read that God creates evil, it is not saying that God creates sin, because that is antithetical to the nature of God, and is contradictory to all God declares. James 1:13-14 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed." He does not create sin, but He does create other bad or evil things. God creates hell, and that is a bad (evil) thing for people, but it is not sin, and it is perfectly consistent with God's Word to create it. God withdraws light, and thus creates darkness, but this is not sin. God takes away peace, and thus creates war, but this is not God sinning. God removes His hand of restraint from man's heart and it is hardened, but this is not God forcing him to sin. For God is "not obligated" to maintain peace, hold back war, or keep man's heart softened. And when we look at the very context of Isaiah chapter 45, it becomes clear that this is what God is saying. "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:" Notice the contrast between these things. Light contrasted over against the darkness. And Peace contrasted over against Bad or evil. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away. The Opposite of peace is war or adversity and trouble. And that is what God is saying. God establishes peace, and God brings evil by withdrawing that peace He has established. Because He's not obligated to bring man peace. He's not obligated to shine light upon every person. God bound Satan and God can loose him, He's not obligated to keep him bound. So you see, by taking away peace, God creates adversity and trouble as judgment upon the wicked for their unrighteousness. This is not sin or wickedness, it is justice. And scripture is replete with examples. Leviticus 26:25 "And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy." This is an example of the opposite of peace, as God sends all these bad or evil things as judgment against these people. It is a bad thing to the people who are under God's judgment, but it is not a sinful act of God. And we can see from the context of Isaiah that this type "evil" is what God is referring to. The opposite of peace and safety. If man disobeys God, He will send an evil upon him. In this case, the evil He sends is wicked man. Amos 3:6-7 "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." Sin is not God's work, it is the work of men who pervert God's righteous work. God sending evil upon man in the form of His taking off the restraint from wicked man that he would destroy a city is judgement, not sin. When we read in Isaiah that God creates evil, we must understand that the Lord is declaring His sovereignty. He is illustrating that the trouble, afflictions, and adversities [ra'], He sends are the punishments of sin, the judgments which are under His providence. As Job so patiently and humbly stated, shall we think to only receive good from God, and not the bad as well? Job 2:10 "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Evil at the hands of God is not sin, it is bad things which we do not like! God?s judgments, or his withdrawing His hand of protection is how God creates evil or trouble in our lives. The righteous judgment of God is not an unlawful or sinful act, it is exactly what man should expect of a righteous God. Righteous judgments. ---- 2. In response to your quote that "Evil Comes From the Lord" A. Was the "evil spirit" that God sent upon Saul an angel, or was it a demon? To understand the difference between the two, we have to understand the fate of the nephilim that were killed in the Flood. To do that, let's go back to the Book of Enoch. We've already seen from the Bible, the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Jubilees that the Watchers were locked in the Abyss for their sins. However, as additional punishment, God decreed that the nephilim, the children of the angels, would be destroyed from the face of the earth: ENOCH 12:4 . . . Enoch, thou scribe of righteousness, go, declare to the Watchers of the heaven who have left the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women, and have done as the children of earth do, and have taken unto themselves 5 wives: "Ye have wrought great destruction on the earth: And ye shall have no peace nor forgiveness 6 of sin: and inasmuch as they delight themselves in their children, the murder of their beloved ones shall they see, and over the destruction of their children shall they lament, and shall make supplication unto eternity, but mercy and peace shall ye not attain." (The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles) The Bible teaches that a human being is made up of body, spirit, and soul (I The. 5:23; Heb. 4:12). The body is the physical part of a man, the spirit is the non-physical part, and the soul (Gr. psuche, Eng. "psyche") is the character or personality. When a person dies physically, their spirit (which has no consciousness apart from the body) returns to God who gave it (Ecc. 12:7). However, since the hybrid nephilim had both physical and spiritual natures, they were able to survive (in a fashion) the deaths of their physical bodies. These hybrid spirits, which were not part of God's creation, had nowhere to go when their physical existence ceased. The Book of Enoch tells us what became of the departed spirits of these crossbreeds: ENOCH 15:8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless 12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them. (The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, R.H. Charles) The departed spirits of the nephilim became what we know as "demons." These entities are mentioned in the Old Testament (for example, see Lev. 17:7; Deu. 32:17; II Chr. 11:15; Psa. 106:37), and numerous times in the New Testament, where they are called "demons," "unclean spirits," and "evil spirits." One of the activities of evil spirits mentioned in the Bible is that of "familiar" or "divining" spirits. These demons appear to have the ability to rouse the spirits of the dead from their ordained sleep. They also seem to be able to foretell the future, to some extent. The first mention we see of these spirits in the Scriptures is a warning from God to avoid consorting with them or the mediums that contact them. LEVITICUS 19:31 "Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God." (NKJV) LEVITICUS 20:6 "And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people." (NKJV) LEVITICUS 20:27 "A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them." (NKJV) DEUTERONOMY 18:10 There shall not be found in thee one who purges his son or his daughter with fire, one who uses divination, who deals with omens, and augury, 11 a sorcerer employing incantation, one who has in him a divining spirit, an observer of signs, questioning the dead. (Brenton's LXX) I SAMUEL 28:7 Then Saul said to his servants, Seek for me a woman who has in her a divining spirit, and I will go to her, and enquire of her: and his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman who has in her a divining spirit at Aendor. 8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he goes, and two men with him, and they come to the woman by night; and he said to her, Divine to me, I pray thee, by the divining spirit within thee, and bring up to me him whom I shall name to thee. 9 And the woman said to him, Behold now, thou knowest what Saul has done, how he 585258030[/snapback] AND ALL THE OTHER STUFF U WROTE WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY ARE WE RECREATING THE BIBLE HERE FOLKS!!!??????? SHORT ANSWERS WOULD SUFFICE THANK YOU VERY MUCH once again god does not exist mainly becuase i dont feel he does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 Well, other things in this world are here even if you don't "feel they do" exist and it's just a fact that what you want has no effect in this world. The courage to believe in God is not in the absence of fear or rejection or death, but the presence of fear or rejection or death but yet the will to go on. Maybe atheists are just cowards. Hence the term used by moeburn, "There are no atheists in trenches..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldaccount1 Posted January 9, 2005 Share Posted January 9, 2005 hmm i'm not sure what i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Maybe atheists are just cowards. Hence the term used by moeburn, "There are no atheists in trenches..." 585259718[/snapback] Thats not what I meant. What I meant was that any atheist found in warfare suddenly has faith in a religion he or she did not before. Religion isn't a steering wheel, its a spare tire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 In actuality, religion is the car and you are passenger, the driver, however, is not there and you are speeding down the highway towards a wall, and you cannot stop. When you impact what will happen after your life is extinguished? Christians know what will happen when they die, and we have the assurance of life everlasting in heaven. Do you have said assurance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph3412t3h13 Posted January 10, 2005 Author Share Posted January 10, 2005 Well, other things in this world are here even if you don't "feel they do" exist and it's just a fact that what you want has no effect in this world. 585259718[/snapback] but what u want does? so ur saying that if u believe in god he exists? that seems pretty redundent to what u just said and as for the no aetheists in trenches thing: thats true, most soldiers are religious so no arguments there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 10, 2005 Share Posted January 10, 2005 Christians know what will happen when they die, and we have the assurance of life everlasting in heaven. Do you have said assurance? 585269252[/snapback] I'll be dead. Frankly, I don't care if there's a bunch of stoned teenagers humping my deceased decaying corpse, because, I'LL BE DEAD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 To the post starter: Here it is kiddo, plain and simple in English. If you jump off a building, and because you don't "feel gravity exists" as I say in comparison to your false statement that "God doesn't exist" because you feel he doesn't, then you're sorely mistaken, and would fall to your death. Hence the statement that what you want doesn't matter. Please consider that. Yet again to moeburn: Yes, you'd be dead, ending a life that was apart from God. And the fact is, your already dead. Spiritually, your dead to God because your apart from him. Think about that, and less about stoned teenagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted January 11, 2005 Veteran Share Posted January 11, 2005 To the post starter:Here it is kiddo, plain and simple in English. If you jump off a building, and because you don't "feel gravity exists" as I say in comparison to your false statement that "God doesn't exist" because you feel he doesn't, then you're sorely mistaken, and would fall to your death. Hence the statement that what you want doesn't matter. Please consider that. Yet again to moeburn: Yes, you'd be dead, ending a life that was apart from God. And the fact is, your already dead. Spiritually, your dead to God because your apart from him. Think about that, and less about stoned teenagers. 585269947[/snapback] Look, buddy, I'm all for free speech and having an opinion, but I'm getting tired of you shoving yours down our throats. We don't believe in God, you do. Get over it. Don't try to preach because you're not getting anywhere. Go ahead and have some sort of satisfaction at the thought that you'll go to Heaven and we won't. We'll have the satisfaction knowing that you've been wrong and you've been worshipping something that doesn't exists. That's the way it goes. Now get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I'm not shoving it down anyone's throat, per say, but in a effort to show you the error of your ways I must be persistant. If you wish to throw your hate upon me, then do so, it's a free country. But your words of hatred against what I believe to be true can not and will not be tolerated. If you don't have anything constructive to say, fubarshibby, then please keep your posts to yourself. Respectfully Submitted, John M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts