drgrudge Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 IMO , god do exits and he/she rocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
botalpha Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I asked myself today why people can't get along. Then I read this thread. But seriously, God matters to some and doesn't to others. Some people believe in different gods and others believe in one. What bugs me is when others try to force their religion on me, that's a line that nobody should dare pass. Otherwise, healthy coversation is most welcome. I personally don't believe in god because I don't find a need to, and I only state this fact because this is a forum for ideas and whatever else is on your mind :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfoos Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I choose agnostic 585091816[/snapback] What an strange coincidence!! Agnostic here as well. lol BTW, Agnostic should be a poll choice since Atheist is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finality Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 God exists, but in what form or what religion 'it' is thereof, I have no clue. In my opinion, as long as you spend your life in a worthwhile fashion and are an overall good person, you'll be invited into the afterlife if he/she/it exists, or reincarnated as the aforementioned sees fit. Or you could just rot in the ground. Such a pleasant thought. Still, the concept of omnipotence zips right over my head -- I don't see how scientifically an omnipotent being could exist, but there has to be greater explanations for the forming of the universe and living things than just a 'big bang'. Raised Christian (shoved down my throat, truthfully), in case you wanted to know. I'm really undecided at this point in my life. Maybe later on I'll be more spiritual but right now all I can think of is female anatomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lare2 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Like I always say, it's better to stay off religous and politics dicusions. So me hides :ninja: btw I'm tired, so excuse for the typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkinzer Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Maybe atheists are just cowards. Hence the term used by moeburn, "There are no atheists in trenches..." 585259718[/snapback] Well, if you're going to be honest, so am I. I am sorry to go off on religious people, but this guy is the epitome of what I dislike about religious zealots. This is mainly directed at John_M: I think that religious people are cowards, because they rely on a crutch to make them feel better about their life and death. You pray to God for things you want and justify things that you don't want by saying that God works in mysterious ways. Would a God really allow natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people? Don't you think that many of those people prayed to God? Did it help them? Do you really think that a God can save you from something like that? If not, what power does he really have? Or is God really a mean man playing a big game? That sounds more realistic. But, really, some of the foundations of religions have been shattered by real, scientific proofs. Can you really refute Darwin? Where is your proof? Yeah, I know, it's in your heart and soul. You sculpt your life around a 2,000 year old document. A document from times when people believed that the world was flat. A document that was translated and transcribed so much that its original meaning may not ever be truly uncovered. Think about the Greeks. The mythology of the Greeks was so ingrained into their culture that they called to the Gods as you would your God. Does anyone really follow or pray to the Greek Gods today? Why? What makes your story any more valid than theirs? What makes yours better than any of the many other religions and variations on religions out there? Who is really right? Nobody can prove that their religion is right. But many many people die because they think that theirs is. Do you not think that the terrorists that flew into the WTC had any less conviction about their actions than you do about yours? What distinguishes the holiness of an act if the person that does it thinks that they are right? A solid argument needs something to back it up. I have never seen anything that would back up a religious argument. Science is a lot easier to believe, because it has proof. Just to be clear, I spent most of my youth (until college) at private religious schools. I was taught about many religions, and though I have forgotten much of what I learned, I still remember that I have never been convinced. Perhaps I am just too much of a logical/scientific thinker... Well, that's probably enough of a rant for now. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LogicalApex MVC Posted January 11, 2005 MVC Share Posted January 11, 2005 To the post starter:Here it is kiddo, plain and simple in English. If you jump off a building, and because you don't "feel gravity exists" as I say in comparison to your false statement that "God doesn't exist" because you feel he doesn't, then you're sorely mistaken, and would fall to your death. Hence the statement that what you want doesn't matter. Please consider that. Yet again to moeburn: Yes, you'd be dead, ending a life that was apart from God. And the fact is, your already dead. Spiritually, your dead to God because your apart from him. Think about that, and less about stoned teenagers. 585269947[/snapback] It is equally true that god could exsist in the context you are stuffing him/her/it into, but dosen't give a rats ***. I mean if u look at it from the Christian perspective i'm always amazed anyone can believe the stuff like what you speak. I mean if it were honestly true that God in the Christian context was as all caring and loving as he is said to be and wants the will one day make the world "right" then honestly why is he wasting time? i mean the Christian context also marks him as all powerful. The only conclusion to honestly reach from the Christian context (and this can be applied to all religions) is either A) God dosen't give a rats *** or B) He's sitting back enjoying the show. I mean the Christian context is depicts "God" as some lonely guy sitting up there with his son worshipping humans (as all he pretty much lives for is making the lives of Christians better). Religion IMHO has been and continues to be the core of almost all negativity in the world. I'm Agnostic simply because we can't prove that god does exsist and we can't prove he dosen't. We can't prove that he gives a rats *** and we cant prove he dosen't. So stop bitting people with what you believe and pretty much telling them they are to be righted. If we are wrong than f*ck it we're wrong... Well, if you're going to be honest, so am I. I am sorry to go off on religious people, but this guy is the epitome of what I dislike about religious zealots. This is mainly directed at John_M:I think that religious people are cowards, because they rely on a crutch to make them feel better about their life and death. You pray to God for things you want and justify things that you don't want by saying that God works in mysterious ways. Would a God really allow natural disasters that kill hundreds of thousands of people? Don't you think that many of those people prayed to God? Did it help them? Do you really think that a God can save you from something like that? If not, what power does he really have? Or is God really a mean man playing a big game? That sounds more realistic. But, really, some of the foundations of religions have been shattered by real, scientific proofs. Can you really refute Darwin? Where is your proof? Yeah, I know, it's in your heart and soul. You sculpt your life around a 2,000 year old document. A document from times when people believed that the world was flat. A document that was translated and transcribed so much that its original meaning may not ever be truly uncovered. Think about the Greeks. The mythology of the Greeks was so ingrained into their culture that they called to the Gods as you would your God. Does anyone really follow or pray to the Greek Gods today? Why? What makes your story any more valid than theirs? What makes yours better than any of the many other religions and variations on religions out there? Who is really right? Nobody can prove that their religion is right. But many many people die because they think that theirs is. Do you not think that the terrorists that flew into the WTC had any less conviction about their actions than you do about yours? What distinguishes the holiness of an act if the person that does it thinks that they are right? A solid argument needs something to back it up. I have never seen anything that would back up a religious argument. Science is a lot easier to believe, because it has proof. Just to be clear, I spent most of my youth (until college) at private religious schools. I was taught about many religions, and though I have forgotten much of what I learned, I still remember that I have never been convinced. Perhaps I am just too much of a logical/scientific thinker... Well, that's probably enough of a rant for now. :D 585271914[/snapback] Great post saved me from typing more :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 This should have been deleted a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 (edited) A room full of people muttering away to themselves in a hospital are considered as mentally unstable. Stick them in a church and suddenly they are enlightened individuals? I believe God, and in actual fact, religion as a whole, is borne out of insecurity and always has been. Some people need to believe that this thing we call life isn't it. That they'll meet dead relatives (note, dead, not passed over, passed away, etc, stone cold dead, that's what it is) in the future and so forth. We used to pray to far more bizarre things than a single God entity but as we've become more sophisticated and our knowledge of the world has expanded, we've 'grown out of it', for want of a better phrase and we continue to do so -- look at the falling church numbers. I feel supremely confident that in the future man will look back at religion as it is today in the same way that we look back at burning witches at the stake many years ago. It was borne from ignorance and again, note, that there was no real case. If you survive the fire, maybe you weren't a witch after all. If you do then hey, we were right and you were a witch. Either way, no proof could be provided. It's the same with God today. Not a single person, believer or otherwise, can offer any proof, above their own belief, that God exists or that my mortal sins shall send me into a conflagration of eternal hell. So, if I believe, I'll be rescued at the last minute, if I don't then I'm going to hell. Witch trials anyone? That said, I'm always open to evidence of contradiction. Show me one tiny fraction of physical evidence and I'll buy it. Us non-believers have already done our bit -- you can't see God, meet him in the cafe, photograph him, etc. We can prove that you die and that you'll still be in the ground many centuries later (assuming burial) and a whole host of other things. I can shoot the Pope tomorrow and he'll still fall to the ground like you or I. What can you provide as contradictory evidence? Hell, even a carbon-dated autograph will do me. Just don't give me the Bible and expect me to not see it as words that have changed to suit the political climate of their time. The only proof that provides is that humanity has always relied on propoganda to subvert and condition fellow man, and to give an already twisted hiarachy of power even more power. Edited January 11, 2005 by SniperX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdb264c Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Hello ladies and gentlemen, once again, and I'm here to return those false statements made by jdb264c. I'm not complete with all the answers to them yet, but I will soon. Here are the ones I have now.jdb264c, in reply to your 17 paragraphs of either malicious intent or just false views from someone else or yourself, I have prepared the following facts to set right each of your false statements. [...] 585257992[/snapback] John. Thanks for answering, will get back to your answers in a while but will probably be away for a couple of weeks working with the tsunami victims here @ my hospital. The courage to believe in God is not in the absence of fear or rejection or death, but the presence of fear or rejection or death but yet the will to go on. Maybe atheists are just cowards. 585259718[/snapback] Wy would it be courageous to believe in god? The strength not to believe in god in spite of fear and death is what would be courageous in my opinion. In actuality, religion is the car and you are passenger, the driver, however, is not there and you are speeding down the highway towards a wall, and you cannot stop. When you impact what will happen after your life is extinguished?Christians know what will happen when they die, and we have the assurance of life everlasting in heaven. Do you have said assurance? 585269252[/snapback] It's a classical christian thing to try to throw in some fear about after-life but what you guys don't understand is that atheists are not afraid of there being nothing after. We just don't consider this an issue. Also, I think it would be degrading, had I been a christian, to go with the "safety"-arguments. What's even more interesting is that not even the bible is consistently telling people what it takes to be a christian and earning salvation. Think about the Greeks. The mythology of the Greeks was so ingrained into their culture that they called to the Gods as you would your God. Does anyone really follow or pray to the Greek Gods today? Why? What makes your story any more valid than theirs? What makes yours better than any of the many other religions and variations on religions out there? Who is really right?A solid argument needs something to back it up. I have never seen anything that would back up a religious argument. 585271914[/snapback] Well spoken. The actual burden of proof is not on the ones arguing that something does not exists but on those who's trying to argue that it is. And to whoever it was who said that this thread is unnecessary; debates like this is one of the greatest things in democracy, I think it's a privilege, almost a duty, to be able to freely express opinions even in serious matters as this. It's a more precious thing than we sometimes recognizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farstrider Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Like I always say, it's better to stay off religous and politics dicusions. So me hides :ninja: I agree, Sex, Religion and Politics are a bad mix and almost everyone has an opinion that they feel is better. So, the moral of the story is, keep what you beleive to yourself and no arguments can ensure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaZoR Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Oh joyous the day would be if the Big-Bang theory was proved. How christians faith would be shattered and they realise it's a lie, yet would deny any proof. God can only exist as faith and belief in human (christian/catholic/etc.) minds. If you watched Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy, in that God proved His existance, and because everyone knew he was real. Nobody believed in him and then he ceased to exist. The atheist in trench comment. I understand that some (most?) feel in such a way when bullets are flying past them, I wouldn't be one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 So, the moral of the story is, keep what you beleive to yourself and no arguments can ensure. 585272074[/snapback] Thankfully, you weren't given the project of evolution to manage then! Otherwise we'd still be walking on the flat world in fear of falling off, as nobody would have dared to voice their opposing view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkinzer Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 In actuality, religion is the car and you are passenger, the driver, however, is not there and you are speeding down the highway towards a wall, and you cannot stop. When you impact what will happen after your life is extinguished?Christians know what will happen when they die, and we have the assurance of life everlasting in heaven. Do you have said assurance? 585269252[/snapback] Ok, so really what you are saying is that God is an imaginary friend and religion is a security blanket, for adults. You feel better about your life by imagining that you are more special than biology would have you believe. You are afraid because nature decomposes and you want to believe that you are more special than every other organism on Earth. It scares you to think of the boundless universe and the implication that each individual human really is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I am happy knowing that even in the scope of the Earth, I really am one tiny speck. But I love my life and would rather spend my time appreciating the physical world than seeking comfort in a vague promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furby Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 (edited) Some great posts here which articulate my lack of belief probably better than I could, so I fall neatly into the atheist category. I just think religion has harmed more people than it could ever "save" and I don't want to be a part of it. Edited January 11, 2005 by furby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 I agree, Sex, Religion and Politics are a bad mix and almost everyone has an opinion that they feel is better. So, the moral of the story is, keep what you beleive to yourself and no arguments can ensure. 585272074[/snapback] Arguments are a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkinzer Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 ^ Yes. Which is why I look forward to hearing a rebuttle to my arguments. Or have I offended too many people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted January 12, 2005 Veteran Share Posted January 12, 2005 SniperX, jkinzer, and frazell: All of you have stated what I believe in a much better way than I could have ever articulated ;) I just wish there would be some easy way to convincingly disprove the existence of God. That way we wouldn't have to deal with religion being shoved down our throats. But, I've lived with it for 18 years, I guess I can live with it for much longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 If I'm going to hell, you're all coming with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_M Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I'm afraid I don't have all the answers gentlemen. I've kept trying to answer all of your questions but the real answers are in your hearts. Look deep gentlemen, look long and hard at what your life is and when you want something more out of life then call your local pastor, or just go to church one Sunday. I do hope I will be able to see all of you in paradise, gentlemen, when that time comes I will gladly accept my death from this physical realm with open arms. Many thanks for the discussion, and may it continue, but I'm done playing my major role as the Christian defender for now. Many thanks to all for their PM's and many e-mails of support, and thanks to everyone for mostly staying on topic, I'm proud of you all. If anyone has any serious questions about Christianity, chech out your local church or pastor, or if your shy, e-mail me and I'll see what we can do. Night everyone, and good luck with the continuation of this discussion. In His Service, John Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkinzer Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 When I want something more out of life, I'll be spending time in the real world working for it, rather than praying to God for it. Wish I could have been here at the thread's start, because it would have been fun to trade mental spars with you. Best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) Many thanks to all for their PM's and many e-mails of support, and thanks to everyone for mostly staying on topic, I'm proud of you all.585278347[/snapback] And therein lies part of the problem. Who are you to think that I require you to feel proud of me? You are not my God and I need nothing from you. I answer to only one person at the end of each day and that person is me. Your verbal holy water means absolutely nothing to me so please, sprinkle it on someone who needs it. Do you seriously believe that I or anyone else should look up to you for your beliefs? It's quite possible that you see me and other 'non-believers' as poor and blinkered village-idiots, tainted with stains of evil upon our souls. I for one can live with that as in a few years I'll be dead and it really won't matter one bit. Then I'll just be another guy with a headstone, like you. However, remember that this road goes both ways, and I for one see you believers as dreamers who need to shift the responsibility of their own actions onto something that doesn't even exist. You are so scared of mortality that you cling to what we today classify as a mental illness to justify your life and cope with the inevitable ending of it. Look deep gentlemen, look long and hard at what your life is and when you want something more out of life then call your local pastor, or just go to church one Sunday. What on earth? If I want or need something more out of life I'll take the practical route and go and get it, if it's available to me. What I won't do is waste time calling an individual who feels that he is more gifted than any member of the public to advise me. Nor will I sit in a large building built so tall as to emphasise the dominance it once had upon free-thinking people and belittle the non-believers into thinking that they were/are lesser mortals than those who feel the need to sit in to allay their own fears of mortality. If religion ws so promising and all-engulfing, you wouldn't feel the need to patronise people so. Surely they couldn't help but bump into it sooner or later? The fact is that they do bump into it but their knowledge, logic, experience, and several other factors, tell them that there is just no sense to it. Edited January 12, 2005 by SniperX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Look deep gentlemen, look long and hard at what your life is and when you want something more out of life then call your local pastor, or just go to church one Sunday. 585278347[/snapback] See? The only reason people ever go to religion is because there is something wrong with their life. The only kind of person that goes to sunday mass for thirty years straight is a person who can't forgive himself for something he did. Jesus doesn’t want me for a sunbeam cause sunbeams are never made like me Don’t expect me to cry, for all the reasons you had to die Don’t ever ask your love of me Don’t expect me to cry Don’t expect me to lie Don’t expect me to die for thee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gauge Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 What amazes me about you religious folk is your ability to fabricate unfathomable reasons for the total and complete lack of evidence to support the existence of any kind of deity. 'Faith', 'Belief', 'Trust'... the three most destructive words ever spoken by man. Most commonly said by those addressing others by which they mean them to accept the unacceptable without any factual support. So, the day after the celebration of Christ's birth, a 1000km crack in the ocean opens up and kills 200,000+ people. God's message to his creation? A benevolant God's message to his creation? Or wrath? In a universe populated with billions upon billions of stars, our poor little God feels a little insecure and decides Earth is the best place to pull an attention-seeking stunt? Throwing his toys out the pram and drawing attention to himself whilst simultaneously denying his creation any definitive proof of his own existence? What kind of sick **** of a God would do that? Wise up people. If something did create this Universe, it has no control or impact on it now whatsoever. It may have stoked the fire and got the Universe burning, but we're now on a runaway train and our creator is now an abscentee landlord. It's just us and the elements and our small insignificant lives. Stop wasting your time and energy. Make the most of what time you have left and accept that the most important thing there is to believe in is YOURSELF and your own abilities. Your belief in God does not make you unique, it does not make you special. It makes you a narcissist. You are the same dying organic matter as everything else and your belief in anything other than that is a product of your own insecurity. In another 1000 years time the human race will have evolved and they will look back on your ludicrous beliefs and wonder how they ever made it that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurë Veteran Posted January 12, 2005 Veteran Share Posted January 12, 2005 I have to agree with that ^^^ Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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