InfoTech Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 [Reply to The Gauge] What makes you feel so defensive? I heard once that we only use a very small portion of our brains. If this is true, and you think about how we have progressed, I think it is fair to say that we don't know nor understand very much. This being said how can you be so sure about something neither you nor anyone can even comprehend in the faintest? You look through your eyes to find proof of non-existence when you truly do not even know how much you can perceive. We don't know how much is going on around us that we cannot even see (other dimensions, etc.). Many atheists, I believe, refuse to use more than their basic senses to analyze things. What about your heart, your spirit, your Soul? From what you've said, and many atheists before you, I can make the assumption you do not believe you have a Soul. And you don't believe in it because it's not tangible. You can't touch it, see it, smell it, etc. Just because you can't experience it with your 5 basic senses does not mean it does not exist. I like to thinks their call "basic" for a reason. Getting back to God (use a capitol 'G' to show respect), ignorance (and I don't mean this as an insult as other use it - just a lack of knowledge and understanding), and denial are a couple of the reasons why I find people either do not believe or do not understand Him. Not that any of us could even begin to comprehend His plan or His actions (capitols on references to God are out of respect and not to show emphasis). As far as the Tsunami is concerned no one knows for sure what initiated it (what caused the Earth quake). Some say God mostly stays out of nature and lets its own course take place. Otherwise might point to this event as a warning of the end times. I am not opposed to the latter. No one can deny that this world is corrupt. If you were God would you be pleased with the world in it?s current state? I would hope that you honestly ask yourself this question and reflect upon it. Remember that the image of God is Good and Just. And that He has given us Free Will. Consider the combination of those 3 things. If He grants us the Free Will to do as we please and we do Evil then what are the repercussions? I was told once that Evil cannot exist in the presence of God (as He is Pure Good). If you were God (and therefore Good and Just) what would you do if your creations conducted or condoned Evil? Would you not want to rid them of Evil and punish them (just as a father would his children)? In other words it would be a correction - to put us, hopefully, back on track. I find it interesting that it is the devastations that happen to us that bring us closer together. Do you see any correlation? If you believed in God allot of this would make more sense. As humans who are on this Earth and know only what we have been taught we are very limited. We believe that this world is so important and that life (on this world) is so important. Don't get me wrong with that last statement - Life is Important! But which is more important? The short life we live on this Earth now.... or the Eternity we will live in the next? Can you not see which God is fighting for? It is a small sacrifice to die here on Earth to be born into Eternity. And where would you rather spend Eternity? Heaven or Hell? We must all account for what we have done on this Earth in some shape or form. Some of us have a lot of accounting for. God loves us all regardless, but if we are not willing to do His Will (Good) then we cannot be allowed to be in His presence. That is why Hell exists. Not because He hates those who do Evil, because he could easily remove them from existence completely, but because they cannot exist in His presence. God is not "cruel".... He is Just! Now for some clarification on the Tsunami. I want to state to anyone who might have the wrong idea about what I have said. Just because the Tsunami happened where it did does not mean all those people deserved to be punished. Some people who died may have been martyred (the children would have been for sure as children are innocent). Those who suffer but did not deserve it are rewarded in Heaven. (This does not apply to suicide bombings in case anyone was wondering. You do not destroy what God has created. Remember we are created in the likeness of God and therefore your body is a shine to God.) For more information on the End Times (if you're interested) go to this web site: http://kathleenkeating.com God Bless you All! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConfusedFusion Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 you called? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) I heard once that we only use a very small portion of our brains. If this is true, and you think about how we have progressed, I think it is fair to say that we don't know nor understand very much. This being said how can you be so sure about something neither you nor anyone can even comprehend in the faintest? Why does it always boil back down to this? If someone chooses not to believe in God (use a capitol 'G' as it's that way in the dictionary) then it must be some mental flaw, some lack of mental expansion that we don't yet know about, or some need to doubt about something which in the whole of mankind no tangible evidence has been presented. We, the Non-Believers, (capitalised out of respect) don't need to doubt as there is nothing in front of us to doubt. I can't doubt your belief -- that is yours. In the same way an opinion can't be wrong, because it's personal. The argument you present is as ludicrous in its reasoning as me stating that I can fly without the need of machinery. Just because you can't see it, that's not my fault. It's true I tell you. A portion of your brain must be faulty or unused. Many atheists, I believe, refuse to use more than their basic senses to analyze things. Well imagine that! Humans using their senses to feel and analyse something. Whatever next? It is those senses which have kept us alive, allowed us to expand our horizons, and reason and will continue to do so for as long as we have them. My heart, and yours, I hate to tell you, is for pumping blood around the body. It's a physical motor part. No more and no less. If you're ever in doubt, pop along to the hospital and ask for it to be explained by someone who deals with them day in and day out. It's a pump. Feeling it with your soul, etc, is no more than colloquialism. No more valid than having 'butterflies in your stomach'. You know that you don't really have the butterflies in your stomach, right? From what you've said, and many atheists before you, I can make the assumption you do not believe you have a Soul. What is all this atheist nonsense? You mean a free-thinking person don't you? What is this? Some sort of club that one is either in or isn't in? ignorance (and I don't mean this as an insult as other use it - just a lack of knowledge and understanding), and denial are a couple of the reasons why I find people either do not believe or do not understand Him. Have you any idea how ridiculous it sounds for any non-believer to be accused of denial and lack of knowledge by someone who believes that once his brain and heart cease to function, as it inevitably will and is completely undisputed, then he'll walk around in eternal smugness and happiness because he believed in something that nobody has ever seen, met, photographed, received anything physical from, spoken to and received a verbal response from, etc? Face facts, you will die like me, my dog and even, yes, shocking as it may seem, Elvis Presley. As far as the Tsunami is concerned no one knows for sure what initiated it (what caused the Earth quake). Have you been a recluse since birth? We have a pretty good handle on the cause of quakes, thunder, lightening, rain, and a whole host of other natural disasters. Again, you may want to turn away at this point, but God hasn't been found to be responsible for a single one yet and we no longer walk around in fear of being struck by lightening if we dare to blaspheme. I find it interesting that it is the devastations that happen to us that bring us closer together. Do you see any correlation? Well you shouldn't. It's quite natural. We are a species who ultimately need to protect ourselves in order to survive. Sometimes this means having compassion and thought for others so that we too may benefit from the same should we ever find ourselves in the same situation. Yes, I hate to break it but those acts which you may well consider acts of Godly kindness are no more than acts of selfishness and self-preservation. If you believed in God allot of this would make more sense. There's that 'holier than thou' patronising again. As though those who don't believe are incapbable of understanding. I put it to you that is because we are capable of understanding that we don't believe! But which is more important? The short life we live on this Earth now.... or the Eternity we will live in the next? I can answer that without even thinking. The short life we live here and now. It's the only one you have and to sit around waiting for the next is truly wasteful. Edited January 12, 2005 by SniperX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Sorry, Edit Error Caused Double Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwanders Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) I've kept trying to answer all of your questions but the real answers are in your hearts.Look deep gentlemen, look long and hard at what your life is and when you want something more out of life then call your local pastor, or just go to church one Sunday. 585278347[/snapback] all of our questions? What about the questions I asked 3 weeks ago (posts #192 and #203)? You told me you'd get back to me? I suppost it's easy to spout out verses from the bible, but a bit tougher to answer the 'simple' questions I posed a few weeks ago... /disappointed. Edited January 12, 2005 by Jack31081 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LogicalApex MVC Posted January 12, 2005 MVC Share Posted January 12, 2005 [Reply to The Gauge]... As far as the Tsunami is concerned no one knows for sure what initiated it (what caused the Earth quake). Some say God mostly stays out of nature and lets its own course take place. Otherwise might point to this event as a warning of the end times. I am not opposed to the latter. No one can deny that this world is corrupt. If you were God would you be pleased with the world in it?s current state? I would hope that you honestly ask yourself this question and reflect upon it. Remember that the image of God is Good and Just. And that He has given us Free Will. Consider the combination of those 3 things. If He grants us the Free Will to do as we please and we do Evil then what are the repercussions? I was told once that Evil cannot exist in the presence of God (as He is Pure Good). If you were God (and therefore Good and Just) what would you do if your creations conducted or condoned Evil? Would you not want to rid them of Evil and punish them (just as a father would his children)? In other words it would be a correction - to put us, hopefully, back on track. ... 585279618[/snapback] I won't comment on everything you mentioned as SpiderX did a very good job of explaining my views on them. I just would honestly like to poll your Christian way of looking at it. I mean when you Christians speak of god in your context it's always the same "He createeverythingb>" and "He's all powerful" then when you speak of "Evil" hes removed from the equation. How is that? I mean god in the Christian context is far from being all good and just, because if he was then there would be no mystery surrounding him. If he honestly cared about humans as you would like to lead us to believe then i think he would have stepped in during the crusades. All throughout The Bible you constantly read up on god punishing people for his errors not theres. Even from the very beginning with Adam and Eve. Remember it would be god, in your context, who created/planted that tree and who also created the serpent that convinced Eve to bite the apple, but of course in the Christian context god isn't blamed for any of his mistakes or for the evil he constantly presses... I still stand firm that religion, which may have at one time served a good purpose, is no more than a hinderance on this planet. In response to your Tsunami tidbit, i believe there would be more of this "generosity" if religion wasnt a key player in this world. Those contries are usually in a very bad shape, because the Christians in the west don't want anything to do with them unless they become Christian. I won't even comment on that aspect of your views... Just face the truth, there is no god running around in the heavens slaving to make your life better when he ****** it up in the first place. As i always say, there's only two conclusions A) He dosent exsist or B) He dosen't give a rats ass as he created all of this so he had some TV... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfoTech Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Why does it always boil back down to this? If someone chooses not to believe in God (use a capitol 'G' as it's that way in the dictionary) then it must be some mental flaw, some lack of mental expansion that we don't yet know about, or some need to doubt about something which in the whole of mankind no tangible evidence has been presented. 585279880[/snapback] This is tough to reply to in just a few lines. It is obviously that we do not know what everyone on this earth has ever experienced. All that we know is what we have been told or what we have experienced ourselves. I don't want to spin off into a long conversation on politics but it is in the interest of many powerful people that we do not believe in God. As a result, allot of Miracles (and therefore contact with God) are either down played or some how "proven" conveniently as being false. We use science to prove things which we later find were not correct. Science is man-made and therefore just as flawed as man. I assure you that proof is out there but it is up to you to find it. God does not need to prove Himself to us. Just as death is inevitable so is our proof of His existence. How do you know what happens after death? Have you ever been there? What is your proof that we truly die? All we can say is that the body ceases to function. We, the Non-Believers, (capitalised out of respect) don't need to doubt as there is nothing in front of us to doubt. I can't doubt your belief -- that is yours. In the same way an opinion can't be wrong, because it's personal. The argument you present is as ludicrous in its reasoning as me stating that I can fly without the need of machinery. Just because you can't see it, that's not my fault. It's true I tell you. A portion of your brain must be faulty or unused.Well imagine that! Humans using their senses to feel and analyse something. Whatever next? It is those senses which have kept us alive, allowed us to expand our horizons, and reason and will continue to do so for as long as we have them. The existence of God is what is in front of you to doubt. I never said you couldn't fly. In fact, if you had enough faith you could. Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered them, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ?Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,? it will be done. 21:22 My heart, and yours, I hate to tell you, is for pumping blood around the body. It's a physical motor part. No more and no less. If you're ever in doubt, pop along to the hospital and ask for it to be explained by someone who deals with them day in and day out. It's a pump. Feeling it with your soul, etc, is no more than colloquialism. No more valid than having 'butterflies in your stomach'. You know that you don't really have the butterflies in your stomach, right? This is true and you are correct. I used "heart" as an object which can feel as this is one of the ways in which we describe something we cannot see. Interesting how we connect tangible objects with intangible object so we can identify and make sense of them. Interesting also is that you attack this reference. I know that you, like everyone else, have feelings. How does it feel to think your life is limited? What is the meaning of life? Would you prefer to think that you are nothing more than an evolved chemical reaction? There certainly isn't any true glory in it is there. What is all this atheist nonsense? You mean a free-thinking person don't you? What is this? Some sort of club that one is either in or isn't in? If you were truly open-minded (or free-thinking as you prefer) then you wouldn't be so certain that God does not exist. How could you possibly know all there was to know? An open-minded person would know there is no way of stating indefinitely in any one direction. We have no proof that He doesn't exist. You cannot state that we know the cause of everything as it has been said before that events were attributed to Miracles. How do you explain Miracles then? Have you any idea how ridiculous it sounds for any non-believer to be accused of denial and lack of knowledge by someone who believes that once his brain and heart cease to function, as it inevitably will and is completely undisputed, then he'll walk around in eternal smugness and happiness because he believed in something that nobody has ever seen, met, photographed, received anything physical from, spoken to and received a verbal response from, etc? Face facts, you will die like me, my dog and even, yes, shocking as it may seem, Elvis Presley. Elvis is dead, his fans keep resurrecting him. Seriously though, as I said earlier, you can't state that no one has ever had contact with God. How can you prove this? There have been many accounts. People simply choose to ignore them. You yourself may have even had a small Miracle in your life but you choose not to acknowledge it. Or you have resolved to explain it through some other means and there by making it "Null and Void" in your mind. Have you been a recluse since birth? We have a pretty good handle on the cause of quakes, thunder, lightening, rain, and a whole host of other natural disasters. Again, you may want to turn away at this point, but God hasn't been found to be responsible for a single one yet and we no longer walk around in fear of being struck by lightening if we dare to blaspheme. This is true. We understand natural disasters but do we truly understand their origins. Let me stop here though. I did not say that God necessarily caused the disaster but it could be possible. There are people who believe that these latest disasters are the cause of the government (be it U.S. or otherwise). This is something else that I hope will not spin off into another conversation. I don?t want to prove that He did cause it just that you have an open mind about it. Well you shouldn't. It's quite natural. We are a species who ultimately need to protect ourselves in order to survive. Sometimes this means having compassion and thought for others so that we too may benefit from the same should we ever find ourselves in the same situation. Yes, I hate to break it but those acts which you may well consider acts of Godly kindness are no more than acts of selfishness and self-preservation. I hate to say it but you sound like a pessimist. Part of the reason why I stated in my previous post "If you believed in God allot of this would make more sense" is because believing in God changes you as a person. To believe in God is to change your perception of the world. Some people embrace this change/perception more than others. But if you have resolved to deny any belief at all then your perception would be quite different from mine, and other believers. And we don?t all help others for personal gain. There's that 'holier than thou' patronising again. As though those who don't believe are incapbable of understanding. I put it to you that is because we are capable of understanding that we don't believe!I can answer that without even thinking. The short life we live here and now. It's the only one you have and to sit around waiting for the next is truly wasteful. I assure you I am not trying to sound 'Holier than Thou'. I say to you honestly that I believe it is not right to believe anyone is better than anyone else. It is un-Godly to act or speak in such a way. It is in your own eyes how I come across to you. As a believer in God it is my duty, as other believers, to spread what has been given to us, our Love and understanding (our belief). We are all family regardless of how closely we are related and therefore should Love and help one another. I am not perfect by any means and as you are my witness I have made many mistakes. I cannot say that all that I have said is true but it is what I believe. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light", and I believe Him. God Bless JMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdb264c Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 [Reply to The Gauge]Remember that the image of God is Good and Just.? And that He has given us Free Will.? Consider the combination of those 3 things.? If He grants us the Free Will to do as we please and we do Evil then what are the repercussions?? I was told once that Evil cannot exist in the presence of God (as He is Pure Good).? If you were God (and therefore Good and Just) what would you do if your creations conducted or condoned Evil?? Would you not want to rid them of Evil and punish them (just as a father would his children)?? In other words it would be a correction - to put us, hopefully, back on track. 585279618[/snapback] Darn, I really tried to have a break from this thread to focus on other things but it's impossible... SniperX, excellent answer, you beat me to it. First of all though, what's this deal with fathers punishing their children? Just a couple of lines above that you rant about God being pure good, and then you insinuate that the tsunami might be a way for God to correct us? What an incredible insult! I have absolutely no idea about the fathers in your country, but luckily here in Sweden, a father punishing his child in any physical way is commiting a serious crime. How's that for a god? Anyway, the really interesting thing in your argument is about the classic "free will". This has for ages been an attempt for christians to sneek out the back door from the old teodice-problem. Problem arises though (surprised?) when it turns out that this obviously wasn't God's plan in the first way. God actually becomes disappointed that man after eating from the tree of life from that point on "is become as one of us, to know good and evil". Now isn't that creepy for a god that is anything but perfect? Wasn't even able to foresee even a week into creation, was he? And how's that for the "free will"-discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdb264c Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 585281084[/snapback] As a result, allot of Miracles (and therefore contact with God) are either down played or some how "proven" conveniently as being false. We use science to prove things which we later find were not correct. Science is man-made and therefore just as flawed as man. Eeh? Do you actually believe this yourself? I never said you couldn't fly. In fact, if you had enough faith you could.Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered them, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ?Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,? it will be done. 21:22 How do you explain Miracles then? I honestly didn't think anyone believed in miracles anymore, but you seem to prove the opposite. Then I suddenly remembered something from when I was in South Africa last fall. While sitting with some SA-friends at a restaurant a magician turns up at the table and starts his show. As usual we all try to look close to reveal his tricks but also as usual his too good, after all, it's his job. Afterwards, one of the girls says "It has to be magwhat else could it be?!. How cyou can't fly? How cnoone can actually fly. We all lack faith? Even you and all christians? Then let me just say this, it will be reeeeally empty in heaven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkinzer Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 SniperX: You rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph3412t3h13 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 holy ****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! haha blasphemy MAKE YOUR POSTS SHORTER U FUNKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 For my next trick, I'm gonna turn water into wine! Ok, now... turn around. Please, t-turn around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raum Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 (edited) I don't see how believer gives me false hope. I believe, but I also know I am responsible for my actions and my life. My feet my be set on a path, but I'm the one that has to walk it. I still have to make my own choices, take my punishments, accept my consequences and so forth. It's my life, not God's. The hope he gives me is wthat when my time of death does come, I might be accepted into heaven, not to have a perfect life. I was raised a standard christian, IE go to church every sunday and read the bible. I've lived the past 18 years of my life not believing. I think you need to reach a certain age before you truely do believe, it just takes a certain level of experience / maturity etc. The reason I believe isn't based on scientific evidence, some evangelists speech or anyhting, it's just a feeling in me that's been developing on it's own over the past few months. I've also had many thoughts that just go through my head regarding religion. Think about it. Assuming we did evolve from apes, why our higher mental capacity? Why conciousness? Could human beings not survive well enough without these things. What logical reason is there for that evolution to take place in our species? We were harmonious with nature and it's way of life as apes, but now we are self-destructive beings ruining our very habitat. Now why would nature alone give us the gift of conciousness, when it's only served to destroy what we have? Edited January 12, 2005 by Raum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzle Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 As a person who takes the Bible as 'hard truth', I have a few questions:1) What is your stance on the age of the planet? Do you believe the planet was created som 6,000 years ago as I believe the Old Testament states? If so, what is your take on civilizations that existed more than 6,000 years ago...or for that matter, anything that existed before 6,000 years ago? We have human remains that are hundreds of thousands of years old. Heck, recorded history goes back farther than 6000 years. Then there are the dinosuars and ever other fossil that date back millions of years. I've heard some say that carbon dating is a farce. I've heard other say that dinosaur fossils were put in the ground by God when he created the Earth. I was curious what your standpoint is on the issue. Yup, i for one believe that the world was created roughly 6,000 years ago, although the Old Testament doesn't state that. James Usher worked that out after looking at chronologys. I have his (rather large) Annals of the World floating around my house somewhere :). As far as I am concerned the only way you can disprove the existance of (the Christian) God is by finding a major flaw in the Bible, inspired by God. Clearly one way of trying to do this is by "disproving" the Genesis account of creation - however as far as I have seen most of them are embaressingly flawed. Carbon14 dating is a farce, even at its upper limit, after 50,000 years (and even then its notoriously unpredictable) there should be no recordable evidence... yet nearly all previous fossil dating has been based on it. The main flaw in most other dating techniques around now is that they simply presume that everything (atmospheric conditions etc) have been the same pretty much throughout history. Civilizations over 6,000 years old? What "proof" did they use to back that up, i'm curious :) Clearly if a civilisation did exist prior to biblical dates then that dating view is flawed. Personally, i don't believe God put dinosaur fossils into the ground. Proir to the "fall" there was no death. Now if you don't believe in a 6,000 year old Earth, how can you say the Bible is 'hard truth'? Wouldn't the Bible be up for interpretation at this point? And if that's the case, why stop at the age of the planet? Good point :) Hence the reason why i believe it is importent to stand up and "defend" the Bible. 2) What is your stance on the fate of believers in other religions? There's Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and a whole myriad of Asian religions for starters. What about ancient religions? Egyptian, Roman, Greek, the various religions of Central American tribes and African peoples? Do they go to hell? Purgatory? Surely not Heaven. And then there's the fact that believers of every one of these religions are just as certain of their faith as you are of yours, so how can anyone be certain which faith is the correct one? Also, if God created the Heavens and the Earth, why did it take so long (some 2,000 years if you believe the earth is 6,000 years old) for anyone to get it right? As a Christian I would obviously (at least to me, or i wouldn't believe it) think that what i believe is correct. The whole multi-faith thing going on at the moment belittles religion in my opinion. Saying that two religions that believe in differnet things and contradict each other etc, are equal is (as far as i see it) saying they are effectively meaningless. In respect to what happens to "non believers", I believe we will be judged on what we have and have not done on the basis of how much information we have. I may be incorrect on this issue, but condeming someone say, in an Aboriginal tribe who died 500 years before there tribe recieved the Bible (yet lived a moral and upright life), because they wern't a Christian is a little harsh. If, however, you are presented with what the Bible says and you reject it, then thats your "problem". A week ago or so I was watching a program on History Channel about the history of the Bible. One segment concerned the Gospel of Mark. A scholar made note that the earliest existing version of Mark's Gospel (supposedly written by Mark himself or one of the first copies) ends in a completely different fashion than today's version. In this earliest copy, the book ends without Jesus appearing to his disciples after the resurrection. It ended with the women fleeing the opened tomb in fear. It was suggested that today's "less intense" ending was created by a scribe sometime after the 2nd century AD.What is your opinion in this matter? If the Bible is to be taken as hard truth, then either Mark was wrong when he wrote his Gospel, or the current version of the gospel is wrong. I don't imagine how the former could be true, since that would mean the original Bible was wrong, and the Bible is supposed to be the word of God. If the latter is true, that means the book you've been taking as 'hard truth' isn't exactly has hard as you once thought. Again, I'm just curious as to what someone of your position thinks of this. I can't say i watched that program, however i know about that. The ending was "removed", it concluded the book by saying "and they said nothing to anyone because they were afraid". Not a very nice way of ending what was meant to be a positive book;) They may or may not have had the original manuscript, i am not aware of that, but it sounds as though the ending was missed off, however even in the early manuscript if you read Mark 16:6, they include an account of Jesus's resurection :) As far as i am aware, in the 2nd century A.D. there was a meeting of early church leaders to discuss what should be in sections of the "bible", given there proximity to the date and the fact other manuscripts would have been around at the time, i think they were in a better position to decide when the book actually finished. I probably havn't done the Bible justice in my defence.. i'll be willing to answer any questions as best i can (if you found my scientific evidence a little sketchy (which wouldn't surprise me given the time of writing) you may want to try having a browse around here : http://www.answersingenesis.org/ i'll happily attest to what those scientists say ;)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfoTech Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 No one says anyone has to be perfect. If I came across that way it was in error. God asks simply that we first believe and accept him. After that we can learn to be better people but even then no one is perfect. We are flawed by Original Sin. But the difference between sinning by choice and sinning by error is important. We all make mistakes but it is when we choose to do something bad when we are fully aware of it that it is Mortally Sinful. This is when we have to ask for forgiveness. Maybe God did know that we would commit original sin but it was of our Free Will that we commited sin. God did not make us sin. Does anyone seriously believe that they can discern God's plan and his logic. If you were All-Knowing and had limitless intelligence do you not think that your perception would be quite different from ours. It's almost like saying bacteria has any clue as to how we think. I believe that God wants us to redeem ourselves and that, whether you can understand it or not, he is helping us do this by making us suffer to pay for our sins. With regards to punishment do you not punish when someone does something wrong and reward when they do something right? The rewards aren't always on Earth. When I was young I got my "butt whipped" and it taught me dicipline. I don't necessarily condone physically punishing children but I still think that if you can't get through to them that what they are doing is wrong it's your last means for getting the point across. "Spare the rod and spoil the child". There is a right way and a wrong way to do this. You don't just go around beating up your children. If there is a reasonable point to your dicipline I believe it is fine as long as it is done appropriately. I don't want to spin into a conversation on punishing children but you have to admit that children are worse now than they used to be. I would not be surprised if there were a correlation with the reduction in punishment that children are now receiving. I know it is more complicated than this but I hope someone sees my point. I know I'll be attacked continuously about anything I say and this is fine. You all have your free will and freedom of speach. I don't know all the answers, and I can't even know some of the answers but I do know what I believe. I may not be able to make you believe as I do but I hope that all of you will at least give it some sincere and reflective thought. You cannot find God unless you truly want to. I say this with all humblest and most sincere honesty - God Bless you All! And with this I'll leave you with one of my favorite prayers. (We can all learn allot from the Saints.) Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace. Where there is hatred, let me sow love; Where there is injury, pardon; Where there is doubt, faith; Where there is darkness, light; Where there is sadness, joy. O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive, it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life. Aman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeburn Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 I don't see how believer gives me false hope.? I believe, but I also know I am responsible for my actions and my life.? My feet my be set on a path, but I'm the one that has to walk it.? I still have to make my own choices, take my punishments, accept my consequences and so forth.? It's my life, not God's.? The hope he gives me is wthat when my time of death does come, I might be accepted into heaven, not to have a perfect life.I was raised a standard christian, IE go to church every sunday and read the bible.? I've lived the past 18 years of my life not believing.? I think you need to reach a certain age before you truely do believe, it just takes a certain level of experience / maturity etc. The reason I believe isn't based on scientific evidence, some evangelists speech or anyhting, it's just a feeling in me that's been developing on it's own over the past few months.? I've also had many thoughts that just go through my head regarding religion. Think about it.? Assuming we did evolve from apes, why our higher mental capacity?? Why conciousness?? Could human beings not survive well enough without these things.? What logical reason is there for that evolution to take place in our species?? We were harmonious with nature and it's way of life as apes, but now we are self-destructive beings ruining our very habitat.? Now why would nature alone give us the gift of conciousness, when it's only served to destroy what we have? 585281867[/snapback] See, i can tolerate that. I can even accept that. It isn't offensive when you're telling me that god isn't responsible for my actions. I like that. Religion is a good set of morals to teach you how to live, and how to treat your neighbour, and has good influences on your life. But alot of books did that to me, and they were all also fiction. The bible is a great book, and certain sections of it certainly changed alot of my perceptions on life, but its just that, another great book. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicedreams Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 im an anarchist who believes that believing gives false hope when it comes to religionMY OPINION PLEASE NO FLAMING 585091702[/snapback] For one.... Anarchy has nothing to do with religion. Anarchy are people who are against government which think is stupid. Everone needs a government. It's like a business. If you have no type of central organization, your business goes down the hill. If a country has no central organization, then it's about the same thing. If a state or city or town or what ever, then your state/city/town will go down hill and everyone will be fighting. It seems like Anarchy is just there for people who are ignorant and just want a reason to fight. Without a government, we would be all screwed up just like the people we are at war with. They don't have leadership or a full government so everyone lives in terror for their lives, because anyone can take a life for no reason basicly or they can start crap with anyone and then that just makes it worse for all the people they are representing if they want to represent them or not. As for God, I beleive in God, but I don't beleive in religeon since all religeon seems to do is have people fighting over who is right and it seems like if you don't have a religeon then you're going to hell. I guess I'm holding hands with most other people in hell then. What if God was made up. Just saying what if... All the signs that God has done in the past science has proven as just science and people back in the past didn't know what to think if they saw a solar eclips, so it must be a sign from God right? But the bible or some book or something does say that science will detroy God though, which is happening. Did you know that the Red Sea that was crossed in the Bible acually a few times a year anyone can basically walk across it. People today are even walking across it. Most of God is being proven ignorance from that people not knowing any better. The bad thing is that now with all the different religeons and Gods in the world, it makes it really hard for someone to beleive in God. My trust and faith is with God no matter what and I do try to live the way he wants us to live so we don't just go out and do bad things, so regardless if God was made up or not, it was a way of controlling people or giving instructions for a basic common well being way of living. B.I.B.L.E. B. Basic I. Instructions B. Before L. Leaving E. Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicedreams Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 im an anarchist who believes that believing gives false hope when it comes to religionMY OPINION PLEASE NO FLAMING 585091702[/snapback] For one.... Anarchy has nothing to do with religion. Anarchy are people who are against government which think is stupid. Everone needs a government. It's like a business. If you have no type of central organization, your business goes down the hill. If a country has no central organization, then it's about the same thing. If a state or city or town or what ever, then your state/city/town will go down hill and everyone will be fighting. It seems like Anarchy is just there for people who are ignorant and just want a reason to fight. Without a government, we would be all screwed up just like the people we are at war with. They don't have leadership or a full government so everyone lives in terror for their lives, because anyone can take a life for no reason basicly or they can start crap with anyone and then that just makes it worse for all the people they are representing if they want to represent them or not. As for God, I beleive in God, but I don't beleive in religeon since all religeon seems to do is have people fighting over who is right and it seems like if you don't have a religeon then you're going to hell. I guess I'm holding hands with most other people in hell then. What if God was made up. Just saying what if... All the signs that God has done in the past science has proven as just science and people back in the past didn't know what to think if they saw a solar eclips, so it must be a sign from God right? But the bible or some book or something does say that science will detroy God though, which is happening. Did you know that the Red Sea that was crossed in the Bible acually a few times a year anyone can basically walk across it. People today are even walking across it. Most of God is being proven ignorance from that people not knowing any better. The bad thing is that now with all the different religeons and Gods in the world, it makes it really hard for someone to beleive in God. My trust and faith is with God no matter what and I do try to live the way he wants us to live so we don't just go out and do bad things, so regardless if God was made up or not, it was a way of controlling people or giving instructions for a basic common well being way of living. B.I.B.L.E. B. Basic I. Instructions B. Before L. Leaving E. Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicedreams Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Sorry for double post, dunno why it did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groberts Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 God is real. How else can you explain our existance and how the Bible has stood the test of time. This is my opinion, but I know I'm right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGraceTFaith Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 WHat many of you do not realize is that it is not about religion at all. We can be religious about any thing. You can be religious about eating Corn Flakes for breakfast every morning. Religion is nothing but a ritual. It requires nothing from the heart. I'll be honest. These days, I hate even being considered an assosiate with what most people call a Christian. I'll even go one step further and say that I dont like being referred to as a Christian. Because if you look at the world and what most Christians have done, and are still doing, its not something I want to be associated with. I say this, I am a follower of Jesus. My life does not revolve around ritual. I live to please Him. Not because I think it will get me a better place in heaven. Not because I think I have to do good things to make him notice me. I know that not only am I eternally validated through Him, but that I was crafted by Him, with an eternal purpose in mind. I am forever failing in my walk. I stumble, I fall, I get back up and keep walking. He's always there to tend my wounds. He's always there to revalidate me when the world says I am crap. He never fails me. His love is unconditional. That's a hard one to fathom. Unconditional love. Most of us dont believe in it because we've never experieinced it, so we just assume it doesnt exist, and if it doesn't exist, then neither does He. The point it all comes down to is soooo far from any type of "religion". What it boild down to is "Love". Love is the end all, be all, crux of Christianity. Anyone who has ever came before and had not love, dare I say, was never evena Christian at all, and did nothing but make things worse for the world. Anyone who truly carries His name on their heart will not only carry love, but, will be seen as a light to the world. Everything else flows out of this love. Truth, Conviction, Justice, Redemption. All of it. If it is not handed down in Love, then it is nothing more than a club beating the head of a child. Now, this is where many of you may disagree with me, but, I will say it anyway. I will go one step further and say that many of you are followers of Jesus, and don't even realize it. Many of you follow Jesus more closely than most Christians may ever. He is Selfless, Compassionate, Merciful, Loving, Merciful, Humble, and Just. I could go on, but I know many people in my life who are all of these things, yet they don't realize the source from which it comes. I'll close by saying this: Everyone I've ever known, including myself, who has ever claimed to be agnostic or atheist was so because they were either caught up in their own mind trying to figure it all out or because they were, at some time or another, hurt and chose to blame God. Well, for those of you that will accept it, I personally want to say, that anyone who has ever come to you in the name of Jesus and has hurt you in anyway was either misled and didn't know the damage they were causing, or never had His name written on their heart to begin with. I would like to personally apologize on behalf of anyone who has ever hurt any of you. BTW... If you're looking for insurance... choose Geiko... not God... He's doesn't do insurance. He's in the business of Life Transplanting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 (edited) As a result, allot of Miracles (and therefore contact with God) are either down played or some how "proven" conveniently as being false. You didn't think for a moment that I would let you get away with that did you? :) I'm genuinely interested to hear what qualifies as a miracle for you and why, even if they did exist, they must be a result of God's actions? Why not another unseen and unknown calamity of atoms or time or something else equally as ridiculous? Why do you insist that it must be God's doing? God does not need to prove Himself to us. Just as death is inevitable so is our proof of His existence. You see right there is what I consider to be religious cop-out number #1. It is wholly childish to retort an argument with you can't see him because you don't want to. It's just not a response that anyone can stand against as it defies logic. But let me stress that it is the only reason it can't be argued against -- it just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Not wanting to see him? I have an intently curious mind which loves fact, debate, and evidence. I adore being proved wrong if I learn something in the process. However, in thirty+ years of waiting for any one individual to show me any physical evidence of the existence of God, I am still waiting. I've heard rhetoric, I've read arid and banal words of propoganda which suited the purpose of their time admirably, I've seen paintings and even watched movies, but not one individual has ever managed to show me anything which provides proof of existence, so much as creative imagination. How do you know what happens after death? Have you ever been there? What is your proof that we truly die? All we can say is that the body ceases to function Because I can dig you up several years later and you'll still be there; not as some heavenly whisp of eternal light but as a putrid stench of rotting maggot-infested matter. That, I'm afraid to say is the sum of your parts and of mine. A million people can provide you evidence of that today, regardless of your belief, history, your past actions or your ability to help an old lady across the road. Science doesn't come with the baggage of marking you worthy or not, it's available to all regardless. But of course, religion has an answer for this too. You see my fault here is that my blinkered view forbids me to recognise the 'soul'. Of course, why didn't I realise this before. Again, it's that cop-out answer. It can't be debated with because it's just not logical and therein lies the real strength of religion. It has had centuries of plying, twisting and bending in the favour of those who needed to control the masses, what they felt, what they believed to be true, and how they acted towards those with the power. It had the supreme ammunition of what was then very simple thinking on the part of man. We couldn't tell you then that if rain fell upon your crops it was the result of movements across oceans, moon-cycles, etc, as we simply didn't have the science at hand to do so. Ergo, those in power were able to tell you anything and I have no doubt that even those who created such absolute drivvle had some degree of belief in what they were expatiating to the masses. But boy did those with an interest in doing so make the most of what was a golden opportunity. It is synonymous with the now glibly termed "climate of fear" which terrorism has brought about. We can't fully comprehend the reasoning, the catalysts, and so forth of the terrorism and so those in power are able, to a degree, to use it to enforce laws which, without the climate of fear, would be a damn sight harder to get through. But we've evolved in our cognitive prowess and we have the media. We're no longer so easy to walk over as we once were. Government realise this and so you see actions being made swiftly, striking while the iron is hot, for want of a better phrase. I never said you couldn't fly. In fact, if you had enough faith you could. No, really, I cannot. Nor can you, nor my Mum, nor anyone else walking this planet. They can believe it all they like but the moment they launch themself from the Grand Canyon, they will see the reality of the situation. Belief is no substitute for gravity. Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered them, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ?Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,? it will be done. 21:22p Now imagine I attended a school full of small children today and reported the same to them. "Kids, if you believe it, you will be able to fly off that canyon." I'll then walk them to the canyon and encourage them to test their new found skill. I would have millions, no billions of people (religious and non-religous alike) decrying my action as wreckless, cruel, and a myriad of other true and negative terms. How is your scripture any different to this? Do you suppose that I could get away with "God said it was true..."? How does it feel to think your life is limited? What is the meaning of life? Would you prefer to think that you are nothing more than an evolved chemical reaction? There certainly isn't any true glory in it is there. Sorry to be so blunt but that is complete and utter arrogant rubbish. Why must my life be less glorious than yours if I don't believe in eternal life? And what is this pursuit of glory all about? It sounds supremely arrogant and selfish to me to live a life seeking little but glory. It feels fine to know that my life is limited. Like almost everyone who walks the earth, I suppose, as I get older I would like to do more and learn more as though if I keep myself busy enough, death will miss me on the rounds, but I also accept that is a result of my own human fear of mortality. I will die like you or anyone else and I'm happy to accept that. I don't need to pursue 'glory' or anything else so selfish to fill my life. I'm quite happy experiencing what mortal and physical life has to offer. I don't see a need to seek out ghosts, heavens, or anything else to shield me from the inevitable. I accept it as a part of my purpose on this earth -- to continue the species. In fact, I should praise death as without it, there would be no reason for life as the species would not need to be continued. If you were truly open-minded (or free-thinking as you prefer) then you wouldn't be so certain that God does not exist. How could you possibly know all there was to know? An open-minded person would know there is no way of stating indefinitely in any one direction. We have no proof that He doesn't exist. And, to repeat myself again, absolutely none that he does. However, with the science that we have to hand, more weight can be given to the fact that he doesn't than it can to say that he does. As the years have progressed and our own understanding of psychology has evolved your church numbers have become fewer and fewer, and let me assure you, they will continue to fall into an eventual zero. (With the inevitable exception of the fringe cranks.) Your church leaders already run around in frenzied circles trying to evolve new ways of making religion more attractive to those who have dared to dispute its merits. Alas, try as they might, it falls on deaf ears, and again, will continue to do so. How do you explain Miracles then? I've yet to see one which needs explanation. What should I look for? A person who lives from cancer despite the odds? That's statistics for you. These things happen. Perhaps a woman who lifts a car to save her baby? Again, that is adrenalin and a deep seated natural psychology to protect our offspring and continue the species. As asked at the top of my response, tell me what you consider to be a miracle and I'll do my best to give my view on its core reason. The only thing I ask is that you save me the prayer next time. For the worth it has to me, you may as well have posted a comic strip there. Edited January 13, 2005 by SniperX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grasshopper Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 May I suggest going to a church to maybe find the answers there? What is the point of this forum? My faith says to stay away from debating these things for debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Yes, imagine, using a forum for debate. Who knows what tomorrow will bring; using a tissue to blow noses with? It seemed to be doing fine without your interjection of mediocrity. It's funny that you felt a need to post that you don't need to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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