TheDogsBed Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Assuming a god has equal or greater powers of logic than you or I, it is fair to assume he would not use chance either. To bang an already well-beaten drum once more, I don't always choose to employ chance in things I do but that's the point of chance, you don't always get to choose. Sometimes, by chance, it chooses you and places its results in your plans. Alas I fear I've steered way off topic now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpen2000 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 To bang an already well-beaten drum once more, I don't always choose to employ chance in things I do but that's the point of chance, you don't always get to choose. Sometimes, by chance, it chooses you and places its results in your plans.Alas I fear I've steered way off topic now. 585289549[/snapback] If a god were to exist, i doubt he would be swayed by chance in the way you might be. But yes we are moving off topic. My fault probably: Hopefully in the next few days I might present some more intelligent views :blush: David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinggus Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 i have many many questions to ask God.. i started to not like him since alot of my family members started to pass away when they were young.. Grandma 50's passed away in 2000, grandpa 59-62 passed away in 2001.. grandpa 61 passed away in 2002.. i dont understand if god loved us, why wouldn't he just get rid of all the diseases/illnesses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph3412t3h13 Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 hey i just thought of this as humans we all wonder how things came to be and i guess at least for me that ive always suspected that there is something up there, but ive never said it is God but i know that there is someTHING up there that mustve started this out i dont think its someONE perhaps maybe its the thing that triggered the big bang (if there was one) and it reacts to what is needed in the universe thats all i think maybe IT thinks we need to die slowly and learn our lesson so it made us learn how to build cars to destroy the ozone and cook ourselves i dunno thats just something i thought of right now cause i remeber explaining this to people a long time ago and ya... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InternalStorm Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Of course God isn't someONE. He is someTHING. He is not human, he is not an object, he is spiritual. Something that humans have a hard time differenciating, the difference between the human side of thinking and the spiritual world. They are two different places. But that is something that we will never be able to see until we die. As humans we have the lack of knowledge to understand such things, but we have a God who came down to earth to set a plan for our lives so that we may one day understand things that we couldn't even imagine on earth. Our world is of time, the spiritual world is not. Believing there is no God, or anything like that is simply foolish. There HAS to be a God. Things just can't "be" just like that. And since we can't begin to understand those sorts of issues, we have to have faith. And, if you have that kind of faith, things will become more clear to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigapixels Veteran Posted January 14, 2005 Veteran Share Posted January 14, 2005 Of course God isn't someONE. He is someTHING. He is not human, he is not an object, he is spiritual. Something that humans have a hard time differenciating, the difference between the human side of thinking and the spiritual world. They are two different places. But that is something that we will never be able to see until we die. As humans we have the lack of knowledge to understand such things, but we have a God who came down to earth to set a plan for our lives so that we may one day understand things that we couldn't even imagine on earth.Our world is of time, the spiritual world is not. Believing there is no God, or anything like that is simply foolish. There HAS to be a God. Things just can't "be" just like that. And since we can't begin to understand those sorts of issues, we have to have faith. And, if you have that kind of faith, things will become more clear to you. 585289825[/snapback] Yet, at the same time, I believe that to think there is a God is foolish. Please don't speak like your beliefs are the only correct ones. That's why many people dislike religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slang123 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 (edited) Of course God isn't someONE. He is someTHING. He is not human, he is not an object, he is spiritual. Something that humans have a hard time differenciating, the difference between the human side of thinking and the spiritual world. They are two different places. But that is something that we will never be able to see until we die. As humans we have the lack of knowledge to understand such things, but we have a God who came down to earth to set a plan for our lives so that we may one day understand things that we couldn't even imagine on earth.Our world is of time, the spiritual world is not. Believing there is no God, or anything like that is simply foolish. There HAS to be a God. Things just can't "be" just like that. And since we can't begin to understand those sorts of issues, we have to have faith. And, if you have that kind of faith, things will become more clear to you. 585289825[/snapback] It seems to me you lack an understanding of our existance, and are using a god as a childish explaination to things I believe that everything in this universe is all of existance, if something is 'outside' of this universe then it doesnt exist relative to us, it only theoretically exists. Take black holes for example, it is called a hole because nothing can escape from it, so relative to us it just doesnt exist as there can be no interaction, its just a hole in spacetime. A god couldnt have made this existance because he must be 'outside' of the universe to make it, like a builder making a house much at some point be outside of it. Now you can see a god simply cant exist (because if he is outside of existance and cannot interact with it, then he only theoretically/mythically exists) However you may claim that god exists only within this universe, but that means that god built himself. Im not sure about the big bang theory. I try not to see the 'creation' as a beggining, because a universe cant just exist at one point in time and not exist in another as time is what binds space, and visa versa. So before there was space there would be no time, so as far as i'm concerned you cant think chronologically about this. Edited January 14, 2005 by slang123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worzle Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Then try reading Oscar Wilde's 'De Profundis'. We all have things to gain by our actions, whether it be self-serving or otherwise. That is our fundamental flaw. At the base level we our designed to continue the species. However, mix that with our own desire to accomplish, to make our mark, to be remembered, and so forth, you are left with a very toxic cocktail of ego and good-intent. The two rarely marry well and very rarely stay married for life. Admittedly if you don't take the author's word at face value then there is very little i can do to prove he was sincere in what he said, neither, however, can you "prove" the he wrote it for his own personal promotion. If you don't believe he could be God inspired, as i presume you don't, then of course that is how it will look - afterall if you don't believe in God to you he is speaking a bunch of lies. :) I'm confused as to why you believe that if a man chooses not tobelieve in God then his life must be considered pointless? Given that our role is to continue the species, a simple procreative act meets the purpose of life, at the base level. Why do you expect or indeed desire for life to have more purpose than this? Is the sheer brilliance of the continued success of a species, despite massive relative adversity not enough for you? Well, is the entire purpose in life merely to reproduce? To be honest, i find that depressing. Does it therefore not matter (in the bigger scheme of things) what we do whilst we are alive, so long as we reproduce? The moral implications for that are rather large. Even if you don't believe in a creator you must realise that one day the earth and everything associated with it will be destroyed and lost and there is very little anyone can do about it. Why strive for the greater human good if it will count for nothing in the end - forgive me for my probable short sightedness but after coming to that conclusion you can either give up (which not many people do), or try create an artificial "purpose" of self fulfulment (by, among other things, procreating or education) or pleasure. If you cannot achieve either of these due to illness / age etc then are you without even a artificial "point"? Again i may be totaly mistaken in my beliefs on this issue :) How can procreation be pointless? It simply cannot. It is, afterall,what allows you and I to be having this debate today. You see, it seems to me that many 'believers' are as guilty of a binary mode of thinking as us non-believers. You seem to believe that if I don't have God then I have nothing at all of any great substance. That is absolutely untrue and unjust. I am not saying you don't have anything of substance. It is my opinion that without God, there is no real "point" in trying to achieve anything of substance; "What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul?" I can look out of my window right now and see a million stars in thesky. The very notion that they exist and that we don't truly and fully understand why they exist or what they will do tomorrow is purpose enough for life; to thrive to understand. Frankly, I don't want all of the answers dictated to me from a book. That, to me, is arrogance at a level that is beyond measure, and indeed, makes for a very dull life. I would argue that if you have all the answers, you know the origin and you know the end then what is the point of the taking part? The "answers" (such as the example you gave) arn't all in the book :) I would expect "proveable" science (if thats even possible) not to contradict what the Bible has to say, however there are many fields of exploration. To say that believing the Bible means that there are no more answers to find is incorrect. The Bible doesn't tell us directly (for example) about cell structures, just as it doesn't about many modern inventions, yet we are free to explore them. The Bible, as you mentioned before, is, amongst other things, an "instruction manual" for living a righteous life. Would you expect a religion (or any judicial system) to lay down no rules, and yet expect people to know insctinctively how to live there lives? Your argument, as far as i am concerned is flawed. If you know the origin and you know the end (although not when it will happen) you must be in a position when you cannot help but take part. I cannot say i know all the answers, nor would i expect anyone else to say that. As i mentioned the Bible doesn't give them all. It gives relevent "answers" that are (i would say) integeral to living a righteous and Godly life. In that situation can you suddenly exclude yourself from life just because you think there is no point? I'm not sure you can. You cannot help but participate, it is up to you how you do so, however. You know and I know that I cannot disprove the Bible, and as I havesaid before, that is the sheer brilliance of it. It has centuries of twisting, bending, legend, myth and other features on its side. Science, in comparison, is a junior lightweight, but it is growing all the time. I have every confidence that one day we will see the answer and it won't be that of a supreme being. One thing I am almost certain of however, is that anything that has man as its author is subject to the weaknesses which are synonymous to man. 585288853[/snapback] I would love you to show where you found proof it has "centuries of twisting, bending, legend, myth and other features on its side" :) Admitedly science is growing, however i believe the more it does so, the more it will support a Biblical view. However that is my opinion and i know you disagree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDogsBed Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 (edited) Well, is the entire purpose in life merely to reproduce? To be honest, i find that depressing. As depressing as it may appear to you personally, strip away the artifical social impositions, the artificial culture, the artificial good manners and so-forth, to procreate is our purpose. Sure, we may do it with a little more style than your average housefly, but our base purpose is the same -- to ensure the continuation of the species. The rest is, as they say, mere trimmings and decoration. You are able to believe what you believe today as a result of this basic function. Without it, you wouldn't even be here to believe it. Though you don't need me to tell you that, it's plainly obvious. Does it therefore not matter (in the bigger scheme of things) what we do whilst we are alive, so long as we reproduce? The moral implications for that are rather large. Even if you don't believe in a creator you must realise that one day the earth and everything associated with it will be destroyed and lost and there is very little anyone can do about it. In truth, you are right in the answer your question itself poses. It doesn't really matter what we do whilst we are alive. Once you breed, it matters not a jot in the grand scheme of things whether you earn a million pounds a day, have the most successful career, become extremely famous, or use Firefox or IE as your preferred web browser. It's insignificant in the natural form. It is only significant now because we have made it artifically so with our own twisted sense of priority. As we have already both agreed, we are fundamentally flawed in our makeup. We know that we must continue the species in order to survive and so we do what we are pre-programmed to do, breed. On the other side of the coin, we are quite at ease launching grenades and worse at our fellow man if their sense of ideals don't quite match that of our own. However, what makes us singularly unique is our power of reasoning. It is that one capability which has led us to explore, to research, to create, (and destroy) to make judgements, to create theories, and a whole host of other human things. Yes, I accept that one day the world will end. It's inevitable, the sun isn't getting any cooler. However, it's that survival clause kicking in again. I don't believe for one moment that, by that time, we will be solely dependant on the earth that we currently caretake for. We can't. Our thirst for survival dictates that is something we inevitably have to deal with and I'm confident that we will; for better or worse. Why strive for the greater human good if it will count for nothing in the end What greater human good? I don't believe I for one have ever personally stated that our actions are striving to or leading to a greater good. On the contrary. I believe that many of our decisions and actions are directly in conflict with what we perhaps should do, but that again is the nature of man -- to do what he believes is the best thing at that moment. It seems to me that despite our relative brilliance, we are extremely short-sighted. I don't put that down to a natural flaw so much as a cultural one. You, I assume, see that there must be a point at the end of it all. I see it quite the opposite. There isn't a point per se. Having a point to our existence is something that we as thinkers feel there has to be. Our entire daily life is governed by start points and end points and so it is no wonder we have it ingrained within us that our existence has to have one. Why does it have to be? And even if it does have to be, does it have to be a worthy point? Just because there isn't an end, it doesn't mean there can be no middle. Look at a mere circle shape. It has no breaks, no corners, no pause, it's just perpetual; no start point and no end point; yet it serves many an important purpose to us. It is my personal view that our existence (in terms of the life-span of you and I as individuals) is nothing more than filling time while our cells break down and die and while we wait to become of breeding age and find a breeding partner. You only have to look at the sophisticated (and yet paradoxically) quite base social dance that takes place in forming a courtship and relationship to appreciate that we need the time to meet, attract, bond, breed and then subsequently nurture our offspring. As i mentioned the Bible doesn't give them all. It gives relevent "answers" that are (i would say) integeral to living a righteous and Godly life. Which is great if you believe in the fundamental issue that we need to or have to live a righteous or Godly life. This is, I fear, where you and I will go around in a circle. As I'm sure I've made clear in previous posts, I believe we don't need to or have to, that is just a choice that some make. Further, I do not believe that by living in a Godly manner, you make yourself any more or less worthy to the human race than one who doesn't. You are exactly the same as me in terms of worth and value, with or without your belief. It is this point in religion, moreso Christianity which angers me the most. The implication that if I don't believe then I shall somehow meet a lesser ending than you and so by association then I am less worthy than you. I cannot think of a singularly more arrogant and egotistical thing to preach, and to me at least, it is of no more value or worth than racism was in the 50s. The end result will be the same result whether you or I believe in God or not. Though some may of course argue that we may see a little less bloodshed without religion binding us, I see religion as no more guilty of causing bloodshed than man's mere greed. While we may have ventured off topic, it's a steer away that I'm thoroughly enjoying so I thank you for that. Edit: Sorry, I forgot this element. I would love you to show where you found proof it has "centuries oftwisting, bending, legend, myth and other features on its side" Again, I dare to suggest that you already know that I have no proof of this. What I do have is repeated examination of human character which shows us time and time again that man is all too easily prone to lie, cheat, embellish, interpret selfishly, overstate, and generally twist the written word to bend the belief and the response of the reader. I have absolutely no reason to doubt that this trait was any less common then than it is now. In fact, I would expect it to be more common back then if anything as it wouldn't have been as subject to the close scrutiny as we can now apply to written documents. Edited January 15, 2005 by SniperX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdb264c Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 Yeah. Actually. If I have a die, a random roll may or may not produce a six. However, if I place the die on the table: six up, then it is absolutely probable that a six is on the table. Why is it? Because I have eliminated the probability/chance element of the situation. Similarly, believing that god takes away the improbability of cells appearing by chance... because a god would not operate on chance, he would simply place the die on the table six up. 585289246[/snapback] I wasn't really after the statistical side of it, because that's pointless in a discussion like this. Anyone who doesn't believe in God don't care about the probability of the universe, it's not an argument since there wasn't a plan before forming the universe. It's an old and lame argument from christians that one could just take a look at all the amazing and beautiful things, eg flowers, around us to realize that there has to be a plan and meaning, but in whatever way things turned out, we would probably be amazed. Furthermore, just because we're amazed, why would there have to be a plan and creator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph3412t3h13 Posted January 15, 2005 Author Share Posted January 15, 2005 I wasn't really after the statistical side of it, because that's pointless in a discussion like this. Anyone who doesn't believe in God don't care about the probability of the universe, it's not an argument since there wasn't a plan before forming the universe. It's an old and lame argument from christians that one could just take a look at all the amazing and beautiful things, eg flowers, around us to realize that there has to be a plan and meaning, but in whatever way things turned out, we would probably be amazed. Furthermore, just because we're amazed, why would there have to be a plan and creator? 585297656[/snapback] dude i dont believe in god and i thihnk about how the universe was made all the time what u have to understand is that you do not represent all aetheists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdb264c Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 i dont believe in god and i thihnk about how the universe was made all the timewhat u have to understand is that you do not represent all aetheists 585298045[/snapback] So do I, that's not my point. I'm just trying to point out the semantic issue of us going around thinking about how the earth could have ended up exactly the way it is. I consider this an important issue since it's possible that a lot of people solves this fascination by turning to religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdb264c Posted January 16, 2005 Share Posted January 16, 2005 That is not proof, even darwin himself dencounced his teachings on his deathbed. 585285157[/snapback] A lie. That story was fabricated by a woman named Lady Hope. Soon after Darwin's death, she claimed to have been at Darwin's deathbed and that he there read the Epistle of the Hebrews and confessed that he regretted the evolution theory. The story by Lady Hope was refuted by Darwin's children, for example his daughter Henrietta who wrote in the paper Christian that she was present at the deathbed and that Lady Hope was never there. As usual with the Creationists, being anti-evolutional, they have to falsify facts, but in this case, even the Creationists have had to make a u-turn and now don't recommend anyone who is a anti-evolutionist to use this argument. (Which never was a valid argument after all, a theory doesn't stand or fall with it's creator.) And we don't need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin's day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed:"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree." There is a gigantic leap of physical evidence that is missing in the evolution of life that needs to be there even for Darwin himself to acknowledge that it is something of merit at all. 585285157[/snapback] Although the quote is real, it's only valid for an anti-evolutionist if they cut out the part that comes after it. What Darwin really wrote was: [continued from your quote] "Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HATEEYES Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 atheist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yisman Posted January 18, 2005 Share Posted January 18, 2005 I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and was raised from the dead!!!! (lets see how long my post remains before some one removes it...) 585112381[/snapback] :sleep: You're pretty stupid, aren't you? Post removal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhippy Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 woahhh.....slow down guys! the realism is that you wake up every morning and breathe. you are surrounded by people who care about/love you and live your life happy and relatively peacefully. what more could you want? do you really need to speculate about or seek proof of any divine being? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solarix Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 im not happy when i wake up in the morning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 im not happy when i wake up in the morning 585326199[/snapback] im not happy when i wake up next to you either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhippy Posted January 20, 2005 Share Posted January 20, 2005 im not happy when i wake up in the morning 585326199[/snapback] work out why and sort it out then! everyone deserves to be happy and everyone wants to be happy - it's human nature. life's too short not to try and achieve happiness. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ph3412t3h13 Posted January 21, 2005 Author Share Posted January 21, 2005 life's too short not to try and achieve happiness. :) 585326477[/snapback] :( u made me sad u mother ****er Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyhippy Posted January 22, 2005 Share Posted January 22, 2005 :( u made me sad u mother ****er 585333955[/snapback] sorry dude! :blush: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeboy Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 I believe there is something out there that keeps us alive and makes us enjoy every day, but I dont think it is called god, or that it is an old man like the church paints him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 I believe there is something out there that keeps us alive and makes us enjoy every day, but I dont think it is called god, or that it is an old man like the church paints him. 586220476[/snapback] I just knew when that link was posted in the "allah" thread, that this would be ressurected. And only new members ressurect dead threads, it's not allowed. reported Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axel Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 I just knew when that link was posted in the "allah" thread, that this would be ressurected. And only new members ressurect dead threads, it's not allowed.reported 586220494[/snapback] Do you wanna be a mod or something. Geeze lighten up, the thread still has some sort of relavance, let the newbie's post in it. Beats making a new thread like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted July 15, 2005 Share Posted July 15, 2005 Do you wanna be a mod or something. Geeze lighten up, the thread still has some sort of relavance, let the newbie's post in it. Beats making a new thread like this. 586220512[/snapback] You got a point. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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