The Davinci Code

[inphlict]

Spoiler Alert

I just finished watching "The Real Da Vinci Code" and it deals with the book written by Dan Brown. It basicly shows that this book and a bunch of others written about the holy grail are acctually false and are based on a hoax, also it shows how these books connected the dots incorrectly. What are your thoughts?

I think that the whole Jesus story is a myth, possibly based on a real person. And isn't their evidence that the stories from the second testament are acctually rewriten stories from the egyptians?

The basic idea is that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and that the holy grail is actually the blood line of Jesus Christ, instead of a cup. (The whole cup thing is also invented according to the show) Davinci is part of some secret organization that protects this information and that he encoded this in The Last Supper. This organization is apparently still present up to today. In the Last Supper, if you look closely there is a women next to Jesus who is supposed to be Mary Magdalene. There is also a v shape between them, which means a bunch of things.

Anyway, this is more or less like a documentary that dispels many of these accusations, it basically showed that the authors made conclusions from some texts discovered in the past 60 odd years and a number of other places. But the whole idea about the Christian origins and how it all started and where these stories came from, it's quite interesting.

Edited March 11, 2005 by inphlict

[dt]

I don't think "the Da Vinci Code" has little or any truth to it at all.

In any case this thread should probably go under the "Member's Metropolis" forums. :)

[acoustikrage]

it is fiction....

[inphlict]

Funny your nick has Templar in it. Yes it's true the book has fabricated ideas, but I'm talking about the whole concept of Jesus and Christianity.

[lardiop Veteran]

I think that the whole Jesus story is a myth, possibly based on a real person. And isn't their evidence that the stories from the second testament are acctually rewriten stories from the egyptians?

And I could think that Martians are going to invade the earth tomorrow, but I dont have any evidence of that do I?

Is there any hard evidence supporting your statement? Is it just a wild guess? Christianity is as real as it gets. Miracles, Saints, Martyrs, billions and billions of believers.

[inphlict]

And I could think that Martians are going to invade the earth tomorrow, but I dont have any evidence of that do I?

Is there any hard evidence supporting your statement? Is it just a wild guess? Christianity is as real as it gets. Miracles, Saints, Martyrs, billions and billions of believers.

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There have been many people who have claimed he was fake, but even if he was real he wasn't acctually a god or whatever. There is little evidence to prove he ever existed besides the bible, which was written after his death, revised and translated a million times. Who can you really trust? Maybe he was invented by the early church so they could control people. I don't know and you don't either.

Rational people know that Jesus was not a God! It's just a matter of showing direct evidence to prove this which is hard when your overshadowed by millions of people and some stupid book written hundreds of years ago and also the church which likes to hide any evidence that could destroy it.

[trance]

Hasn't it made anyone wonder why there aren't any really brand new religions in the past oh... 2000 to 500 years? I mean... people back then were just far more... dare I say it... gullible... It is the scientific age, and we just do not need any kind of deity to define our existance.

Look at it logically... if there was a god, would he/she/it want us to kill in its name? Organised religion that goes beyond basic spirituality has been the cause of more bloodshed than anything else in history. Killing in the name of god, doesn't that just sound like an oxymoron?

If there was a god, it would tell us that yes it wants us to kill, or if it didn't it would stop us. But there hasn't been anything either way... So then you say "it is our choice". Ok... then it is my choice to not beleive, and nobody on this green earth can tell me otherwise.

[yert*]

mk whatever, I just want to buy the book because it apparently supposed to be an incredibly great book. :alien: I want to get all his other books too.

[Daylene]

I wouldn't say people were extremely gullible back then, but still today many people are probably just as gullible. Take certain cults for example, people fall for the beliefs and weird things.

Religion has decline though, probably due to lack of interest. Now with computers, tvs, etc, people don't both with religions. Most people have almost always found sitting in churches listening to sermons boring, and nowadays most people just don't go to church.

I prefer spirituality over religion, it's what you believe in, but you don't follow anything. I believe in god, and heaven, but I do not believe in doing x amount of htings (ie: going to church everday) will help you get to heaven. Simply saying a prayer at night, or appreciating being alive works for me.

[Djmutik1013]

The books are of romance novel caliber. I have read all of his books in this vein.

Edited March 11, 2005 by Djmutik1013

[lardiop Veteran]

There have been many people who have claimed he was fake, but even if he was real he wasn't acctually a god or whatever. There is little evidence to prove he ever existed besides the bible, which was written after his death, revised and translated a million times. Who can you really trust? Maybe he was invented by the early church so they could control people. I don't know and you don't either.

Rational people know that Jesus was not a God! It's just a matter of showing direct evidence to prove this which is hard when your overshadowed by millions of people and some stupid book written hundreds of years ago and also the church which likes to hide any evidence that could destroy it.

585599777[/snapback]

A) 99% of that is wild accusations with 0 proof or credibility. I have 2000 years of faith and believers, incredible miracles that happen each and every day, thousands of saints and marytrs that performed astonishing tasks while alive, bodies of saints that have yet to corrupt after death. I could go on for pages.

B) Oh, Jesus is completely a control mechanism invented by the early church. If anything, Jesus is the one reason why this world hasn't killed itself over and over several times by now.

C) And you know Jesus wasn't God made man how? A stupid old book? Have you done any research at all? We have nothing to hide, are constantly seeking the truth in every situation and use a complete dialogue with other faiths as our primary method of communicating Jesus' message to the world.

As for killing in the name of Jesus etc, name one time when that happened. Strongest case you might have is of the crusades, but you'd have to understand the times that they lived in. They saw the occupation of the holy land as a serious threat to the faith. We have NEVER and will NEVER seek war as a means to peace. We would only defend ourselves in the case of an attack.

And the whole priest sexual scandal that's been going on. Those are the actions of individuals seeking his own personal gain. That is not the Catholic Church, its falible people making really bad choices.

[Djmutik1013]

A) 99% of that is wild accusations with 0 proof or credibility. I have 2000 years of faith and believers, incredible miracles that happen each and every day, thousands of saints and marytrs that performed astonishing tasks while alive, bodies of saints that have yet to corrupt after death. I could go on for pages.

B) Oh, Jesus is completely a control mechanism invented by the early church. If anything, Jesus is the one reason why this world hasn't killed itself over and over several times by now.

C) And you know Jesus wasn't God made man how? A stupid old book? Have you done any research at all? We have nothing to hide, are constantly seeking the truth in every situation and use a complete dialogue with other faiths as our primary method of communicating Jesus' message to the world.

As for killing in the name of Jesus etc, name one time when that happened. Strongest case you might have is of the crusades, but you'd have to understand the times that they lived in. They saw the occupation of the holy land as a serious threat to the faith. We have NEVER and will NEVER seek war as a means to peace. We would only defend ourselves in the case of an attack.

And the whole priest sexual scandal that's been going on. Those are the actions of individuals seeking his own personal gain. That is not the Catholic Church, its falible people making really bad choices.

585599872[/snapback]

What a beautiful defense of Holy Mother Church. thank you for voicing what I could not

[OrangeSoul]

i think the fact that they actually put a book out called the real davinci code is fact justified that if not all truth, there is some truth in the davinci code.

namely that jesus did not die on the cross

[daoutlawz]

i dont think the davinci code is more truth then ufo's coming from other planets. but its up to the individual reader to accertain that for themselves.

jesus NOT dying on the cross, well allow me to let you in on a little secret, the Bible tells us jesus' death is the only thing that saves us, the ONLY thing, no amount of work for God does it.

that being said, why is it that every other religion/book out there acknowledges the fact that he was a 'Good Person' but didnt DIE.

Simply, (now talking from a biblical point of view) that was the time Jesus defeated Lucifer and death, Lucifer knows he has been defeated, but his job now is to get as many people to NOT believe that he died, simple, his death is the only means for salvation for us today. The Mother Mary, all the saints, etc are NOT, and there is no point in praying to them, the only one that holds the 'Key' is Jesus, thats it. Sorry, but that is from a biblical point of view.

Christianity is the only faith that requires salvation, no other does (to my knowledge). I really think that Lucifer did a great job in twisting and distorting the truth through other religions and other means, he has left a little truth with a lot of poison.

I mean, why don't muslims talk about budda? or hindu talk about mohammed?

the only common denominator in every religion is Jesus.

i honestly think most of the people out there that read books like the davinci code are acutally looking for answers to life and death, but they are missing the most obvious place to look....the bible. funny that..

[hyperactive]

i dont think the davinci code is more truth then ufo's coming from other planets.? but its up to the individual reader to accertain that for themselves.

jesus NOT dying on the cross, well allow me to let you in on a little secret, the Bible tells us jesus' death is the only thing that saves us, the ONLY thing, no amount of work for God does it.

that being said, why is it that every other religion/book out there acknowledges the fact that he was a 'Good Person' but didntDIE>.?

Simply, (now talking from a biblical point of view) that was the time Jesus defeated Lucifer and death, Lucifer knows he has been defeated, but his job now is to get as many people to NOT believe that he died, simple, his death is the only means for salvation for us today.? The Mother Mary, all the saints, etc are NOT, and there is no point in praying to them, the only one that holds the 'Key' is Jesus, thats it.? Sorry, but that is from a biblical point of view.

Christianity is the only faith that requires salvation, no other does (to my knowledge).? I really think that Lucifer did a great job in twisting and distorting the truth through other religions and other means, he has left a little truth with a lot of poison.

I mean, why don't muslims talk about budda? or hindu talk about mohammed?

the only common denominator in every religion is Jesus.

i honestly think most of the people out there that read books like the davinci code are acutally looking for answers to life and death, but they are missing the most obvious place to look....the bible.? funny that..

585600358[/snapback]

the only common denominator in every religion is jesus? you have not looked into that many religions then!

A) 99% of that is wild accusations with 0 proof or credibility. I have 2000 years of faith and believers, incredible miracles that happen each and every day, thousands of saints and marytrs that performed astonishing tasks while alive, bodies of saints that have yet to corrupt after death. I could go on for pages.

B) Oh, Jesus is completely a control mechanism invented by the early church. If anything, Jesus is the one reason why this world hasn't killed itself over and over several times by now.

C) And you know Jesus wasn't God made man how? A stupid old book? Have you done any research at all? We have nothing to hide, are constantly seeking the truth in every situation and use a complete dialogue with other faiths as our primary method of communicating Jesus' message to the world.

As for killing in the name of Jesus etc, name one time when that happened. Strongest case you might have is of the crusades, but you'd have to understand the times that they lived in. They saw the occupation of the holy land as a serious threat to the faith. We have NEVER and will NEVER seek war as a means to peace. We would only defend ourselves in the case of an attack.

And the whole priest sexual scandal that's been going on. Those are the actions of individuals seeking his own personal gain. That is not the Catholic Church, its falible people making really bad choices.

a) faith, anybody can have faith, and in turn have it mutated into christianity via society. miracles: a great word to quickly cover for not being able to fully explain an occurance. "he fell 200 feet and didn't die, its a miracle" - ok.

b) glad to see a religious person admit that religion is really about controlling the minions, not about enlightenment

c) you say communicating, I say converting. that is one of the main reasons for the longevity of christianity: its overpowering need to convert all those poor and suffering free heathens to good obediant christians.

as for christian and killing: hmm..... it seems to me there have been a few individuals throughout history that have used their christian religion as an excuse to kill the non-christian. (perhaps not as aholy war, but certianly if it was not for the arrogance of believing in their own christian superiority the attrocities would not have been commited)

people just look for ways to make the reality that so much is unknown and the world is a rough place more bearable. So they create a nice fiction to make it all seem nice. Too bad in the end it is this very type of thought that makes the world all that much more dangerous.

Edited March 11, 2005 by hyperactive

[daoutlawz]

the only common denominator in every religion is jesus?  you have not looked into that many religions than!

585600389[/snapback]

lol, i just replied your other post in the other section.. :D

i have read into alot of religions, not all mind you. I didnt mean that Jesus is the focal point of all of them, i was simply stating that they all mention him (briefly) to be a 'Good Person' nothing more.

sorry if i sounded otherwise.

[daoutlawz]

a) miracles: a great word to quickly cover for not being able to fully explain an occurance. "he fell 200 feet and didn't die, its a miracle" - ok.

as for christian and killing: hmm..... it seems to me there have been a few individuals throughout history that have used their christian religion as an excuse to kill the non-christian. (perhaps not as aholy war, but certianly if it was not for the arrogance of believing in their own christian superiority the attrocities would not have been commited)

people just look for ways to make the reality that so much is unknown and the world is a rough place more bearable.? So they create a nice fiction to make it all seem nice.? Too bad in the end it is this very type of thought that makes the world all that much more dangerous.

585600389[/snapback]

a) i dont think he meant those kinds of miracles, i think more along the lines of eg. praying on someone with cancer, and the next they go to the doctor to find they dont have it anymore, you cant just simply deny all of these claims, something is happening out there..

so your answer to all the problems in the world is the belief of christ?

how about the kids in columbine who killed a black kid just cause his jaw was a little bigger, they believed in evolution, and then they killed a girl because she told them she believed in God...the killers did it on purpose on Hitlers b'day, and we could go on a long trail about pretty much all of the recent dictators belief's in evolution, Hitler, Paul Pot, etc.

if you believe in the bible, then you know that you are going to have to answer to the things you have done, which obviously puts fear into peoples minds so they think twice before doing something.

if you believe in evolution, then you dont have to answer to anyone, and you can do what you want..

btw, i know this is an old question, but i have never found an answer to it.

if evolution is right, what is right and wrong? who determines that, and why should i obey it?

[+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹]

Unlocking DaVinci's Code is about the only documentary which was not sponsored in one way or another by the church.

watch it if you are interested in the subject. i have not watched it yet myself but it was recommended to me

btw, i have read 2 books which try to prove davinci code as hoax, but a lot of the arguments they use are so laughable that it makes me think about thier credibility - if they have to resort to argueing with facts that sound more fictuios then the orignal davincicode then i have no trust in them.

really there is just as much chance they are full of crap, as the chance the davincecode was.

so its a 50/50 at the moment, and i cannot write off a possibility some of it is true (agreed - not all of it)

anyhow pardon the spelleing typing waaay too fast.

[inphlict]

I think all religions are complete crap, we allow ourself to believe in something we have absolutely no proof off, it all about faith right? We also tangle our government & education with this religion that creates even more problems. People who claim that creationism is a theory are complete fools, it's not a theory there is no facts! No actual scientists think that creationism is really a theory so don't kid yourself. Don't use god and the bible as your defense, they are NOT facts! It's obviously all written by men just like the rest of the religious books. Thousands of years ago the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians & Mayans believed in all sorts of religions, all these religions are now regarded as myths. No one for a second believes that all actions are controlled by different gods or that there is a sun god. Why? Because we now know how to explain everyday things, we know why the sun rises and why different natural events occur like volcano eruptions. Science has at least some proof that there is no godly force controlling such things, science brings us evidence and tells us exactly how things work and how we can replicate the results.

Religion for the most part useless, people just like to belief it because they are scared of death or that they need to be cured. It's foolish to think that god will cure your disease if you pray to him. People claim that this has happened but you know what there is evidence that things like cancer can go into relapse, so don't claim god just yet.

In this day and age we don't need to belief in some deity in order to feel good about ourself. Don't you see? These foolish beliefs are destroys our progress, we can't let gays marry because of some stupid ass book written hundreds of years ago. The bible permits slavery, should we listen to that to! You cannot place your education on the bible, it will not teach you facts all you will know is fabricated stories about the earth being created in a couple of days and that by biting an apple we have damed ourself. Please, I still can't understand how people can think this is all true.

The faster we rid ourself with god the better, we must think about humanity and put aside our differences. I'm not saying we need to ban religion, people are free to believe what they want but please for the sake of yourself don't bring in religion into things like science, politics & educations.

[inphlict]

Also take a look at this The Pagan Christ

My grandfather once said that the story of Jesus was really a retelling of a far older tale, one told in many mythologies over many ages. He'd have felt vindicated had he lived long enough to read Tom Harpur's The Pagan Christ (Thomas Allen Publishers, 2004).

Harpur's one of Canada's most respected and well-known Christian thinkers. He's a former Anglican priest, and he was a professor of the New Testament at the University of Toronto from 1964 to 1971. A Rhodes Scholar, he's done post-graduate work in the early Fathers of the Church at Oxford under some of the world's foremost academics. He's covered ethical and spiritual matters for The Toronto Star for the past thirty years, he's regularly appeared on Canada's major radio and television networks, and he's written numerous best-selling religious books. When someone like this challenges the existence of the historical Jesus and champions Gnosticism, people take notice.

An old and esoteric religious tradition, Gnosticism proclaims that human souls are incarnate expressions of the Godhead. According to the Gnostic account, at birth each of us emerges from eternity to become a finite, embodied, and separate consciousness. In Harpur's words, "The vitalizing item of ancient knowledge was the prime datum that man is himself, in his real being, a spark of divine fire struck off like the flint flash from the Eternal Rock of Being, and buried in the flesh of body to support its existence with an unquenchable radiant energy. On this indestructible fire the organism and its functions were 'suspended,' as the Greek Orphic theology phrased it, and all their modes and activities were the expression of this ultimate divine principle of spiritual intelligence, energizing in matter." During our incarnation, we forget our cosmic origins and suffer within a state of existential amnesia that Gnosticism hopes to remedy. Valentinus, a second century Gnostic, expressed this best when he wrote, "What liberates is the knowledge of who we were, what we became; where we were, whereinto we have been thrown; whereto we speed, wherefrom we are redeemed; what birth is, and what rebirth." To the Gnostics, each of us is a slumbering Christ.

Gnostic Christianity was the first "heresy" to be persecuted by the Church. Gnostic writings were destroyed, while Gnostic teachers were often killed. Despite this, Gnosticism has survived as the most powerful subterranean spiritual current in Western culture. It can be found among the troubadours in thirteenth-century France, and in the Renaissance hermeticism of John Dee and Giordano Bruno. It appears in the poetry of William Blake and the philosophies of Georg Hegel and Karl Marx. As a staple of Freemasonry it framed the thoughts of America's founding fathers. It informed Carl Jung and Aldous Huxley, as well as the 1960s counterculture and the makers of The Matrix trilogy. In his most recent book, Harpur not only taps into this widespread Gnostic current, he also demonstrates that it runs far deeper than we ever imagined.

The Pagan Christ draws upon the research of such scholars as Alvin Boyd Kuhn to argue that Christianity's central myths were formulated in Egypt many thousands of years before the Gospels were written. Harpur focuses on Horus, a mythical figure whose miraculous birth was heralded by a star in the east; who was baptized by someone who was later decapitated; who had twelve followers; who walked on water, cast out demons, and healed the sick; who was transfigured on a mountain; who was crucified between two thieves, buried in a tomb, and resurrected; and who was known as the KRST or "anointed one", as well as the "good shepherd," "the lamb of God," "the bread of life," "the son of man," "the Word," and the "fisher". Harpur goes on to argue that this myth was never intended to be taken as a literal story about a supernatural person named Horus; instead, Horus symbolizes humanity itself. By representing both our divine and our human natures, Horus is Everyman and Everywoman; his story is the Gnostic story of human consciousness. The legend of Horus resurfaced in the myths of later saviors, like Tammuz, Adonis, Mithras, Dionysus, Krishna, and Buddha. By deconstructing the evidence for the historical Jesus, Harpur backs up his assertion that the Jesus narrative is simply one more variation on this archetypal theme.

The defining feature of traditional Christianity is its literal treatment of this allegorical pagan tradition. Harpur writes, "Not only did the early Christians take over almost completely the myths and teachings of their Egyptian masters, mediated in many cases by the Mystery Religions and by Judaism in its many forms, but they did everything in their power, through forgery and other fraud, book burning, character assassination, and murder itself, to destroy the crucial evidence of what had happened. In the process, the Christian story itself, which most likely began as a kind of spiritual drama, together with a 'sayings' source based on the Egyptian material, was turned into a form of history in which the Christ of the myth became a flesh-and-blood person identified with Jesus (Yeshua or Joshua) of Nazareth. The power of the millennia-old Christ mythos to transform the whole of humanity was all but destroyed in the literalist adulation of 'a presumptive Galilean paragon'. Centuries of darkness were to follow." Harpur suggests that it's time the darkness gave way to the dawn, for religious literalism to be put aside in favor of the revelatory power of spiritual allegory.

A book like this is certain to incite controversy, and The Pagan Christ has had its share, much of which has been unfair. It takes courage for someone with Harpur's background to promote such views. He may well have opened himself up to devastating slander and professional marginalization. If so, he'll be in good company. Gnosticism is forever persecuted and forever precious.

The Pagan Christ reminds us that beneath our political and economic systems, beneath both culture and character, lies the spiritual imagination. This is the faculty that connects the mundane periphery of our existence to its sacred core, the faculty that informs our deepest yearnings and illuminates our ethical pathways. The American abolitionists knew this, as did Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. Unfortunately, the social justice and environmental activists of the modern age have largely abandoned the spiritual imagination, allowing it to be captured by apocalyptic fundamentalists like Pat Robertson and Mel Gibson. If we want to challenge fundamentalism, it's not enough to point out its many hypocrisies and flaws; we have to take the battle straight to the heart of the spiritual imagination. On this terrain, visionary allegory of the kind Harpur recommends may be the only virtue powerful enough to triumph over dogmatic literalism.

Harpur isn't the only religious scholar to come to this conclusion. In Omens of Millennium (Riverhead Books, 1996), Harold Bloom wrote that the cruelties of neo-conservatism "might well provoke a large-scale Gnosticism of the insulted and injured, rising up to affirm and defend the divine spark in themselves." Given the increasing popularity of books like The Pagan Christ, perhaps the rebellion has finally begun.

[daoutlawz]

...

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so what is fact then? what do we know 100% about this universe that was not written in the bible thousands of years ago. what is fact? and what is still a theory?

eg. evolution basis most of its evidence in fossils, now they date the fossils with which strata level it was found in, and they date the strata level with the fossil...circular reasoning?how is the geologic column accurate when people find all over the world petrified trees standing straight up through them? shouldnt even a few findings like this say to the scientists "maybe we got something wrong in our theory, lets change it abit" i mean, thats what is suppose to happen right?

the strata levels in the north pole are also false as they dug up a few years back a WWII fighter plane, it had 10,000ft of snow on top with heaps of rings all the way down..

i mean, you are arguing fiction with fiction, nothing is proven 100%, so why get so angry? believe what you want, thats your right.

[John S. Veteran]

i think the fact that they actually put a book out called the real davinci code is fact justified that if not all truth, there is some truth in the davinci code.

namely that jesus did not die on the cross

585600022[/snapback]

So what you're saying here is that any book that is published is true. What an ignorant statement.

[inphlict]

so what is fact then? what do we know 100% about this universe that was not written in the bible thousands of years ago.  what is fact? and what is still a theory?

eg. evolution basis most of its evidence in fossils, now they date the fossils with which strata level it was found in, and they date the strata level with the fossil...circular reasoning?how is the geologic column accurate when people find all over the world petrified trees standing straight up through them? shouldnt even a few findings like this say to the scientists "maybe we got something wrong in our theory, lets change it abit" i mean, thats what is suppose to happen right?

the strata levels in the north pole are also false as they dug up a few years back a WWII fighter plane, it had 10,000ft of snow on top with heaps of rings all the way down..

i mean, you are arguing fiction with fiction, nothing is proven 100%, so why get so angry? believe what you want, thats your right.

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Fact is something that has evidence to support it, if this evidence cannot be disputed either way then it's fact. Yes many theories change when we find new evidence, but our major theories have only been refined a little over time not completely changed.

What I'm saying is that people cannot use the Bible as evidence. For example you talk to someone who is very religious and tell them that we evolved from something else and they will dispute it no matter what evidence you show them. They don't care about DNA or fossils, they will use the Bible defence, which is stupid.

[daoutlawz]

What I'm saying is that people cannot use the Bible as evidence. For example you talk to someone who is very religious and tell them that we evolved from something else and they will dispute it no matter what evidence you show them. They don't care about DNA or fossils, they will use the Bible defence, which is stupid.

585601547[/snapback]

Ok, you're right, but arent you the same?

im assuming you believe in evolution, if im wrong, i appologize. Evolution has only proved adaptation, i.e micro evolution, we see it happen, its a fact. But as for everything else before that Macro evolution -> Big Bang, there is no proof, just smart sounding theories.

i mean, we are in the same boat, you have to believe in everything before micro evolution to believe that the Big Bang happened, and i have to believe God created us.

The bible tells us about micro evolution, an animal will bring forth after its kind, we have never seen a cat produce a bird/dog or whatever. Its always variances in its own kind. Show a 7yr old 4 pictures:

1 of a dog

1 of a coyote

1 of a wolf

1 of a cat

and you ask them which one is different, they will choose 'cat'. I did this to show what the definition of kind is.

either way, like i said, you need to believe either one.

[inphlict]

Yes but The Big Bang has evidence to back it up, we can detect it by different methods and there are obvious clues left by it. That's the difference between science and religion, when we find new evidence the big bang theory might change slightly just like any theory. Don't compare science to religion please, science is not founded by beliefs it's founded on facts and theories. I can show you evidence that the big bang happened and no one can show me evidence that it did not, at least not yet.