Does Europe have better public healthcare systems


Recommended Posts

Those of you from france, germany, switzerland, etc... how do you like your health care? Are there problems, shortages, outages, etc. How's the management/union issues?

Just a curious canadian wondering about the system from the people. We have a public only healtchare system (except in BC for WCB [workers compensation board uses private] which has worked excellently).

Basically i've seen a lot of reports lately on the news showing the costs, availability, and quality of health care of countries with a private/public system. The world rankings seem to impressive as well.

In canada our system is pretty broken (adding more money doesn't seem to help) and there's talk of switching from the right. Yes, that's right, they don't want an american system so get over it.

Obviously right now i'm leaning to these reforms because our system really ****** up right now and no one is getting care.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't have a problem with it, so I'm curious also. :p

585842333[/snapback]

Probably because you've never lost relatives on a waiting list or needed to wait a year for a surgery or ever gone to the emergency and waited hours, or .... The health care system seems fine until you need it.

There's not enough beds, old broken and worn technology, and many lines and waits. On top of that disgruntled employees all over the place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Sweden we have virtually the same system as Canada but here it seems to be workin a bit better. I've never heard of anyone here losing a relative because of a waiting list or such. Technology is up to date and the quality of care is excellent. (if you don't count care for the elderly, which is a total joke at the moment)

I needed surgery for a hernia but since I wasn't in imidate need of care I had to wait for 2 weeks. At the day of the surgery I spent a total of 4 hours at the hospital for surgery and recovery (quite enough for that kind of procedure) paid my $15 and was sent home for 2 weeks of paid R&R.

I don't have any kind of medical insurance since I don't see a need for it. I've only been a hospital twice in my life, the first of which was at birth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably because you've never lost relatives on a waiting list or needed to wait a year for a surgery or ever gone to the emergency and waited hours, or .... The health care system seems fine until you need it.

There's not enough beds, old broken and worn technology, and many lines and waits. On top of that disgruntled employees all over the place.

585844047[/snapback]

We've had no problems in Ontario. Both my parents had surgeries recently. My dad had a sports-related elective surgery and a urgent cancer surgery. My grandmother died in a hospital last year and my grandfather died in a hospital several years ago so we, as a family, have used the system. My wife and I had a baby in hospital four years ago.

People who go to emergency and wait hours often don't need to go to emergency in the first place. If you need a few stitches from a head wound you can get that done in a walk-in medical centre. Emergency rooms prioritize patients so if you go there and wait it is because many other people have more pressing concerns. I'm sorry but it is not done on a first come first served basis. Someone with a heart attack is going to be taken first.

My father got his cancer surgery in about a week after the final diagnosis and he has been cancer free for a few years now. With his elective knee surgery he was scheduled to wait about six weeks but a cancellation allowed him to get it done in three. Both my grandparents received good palliative care.

Doctors only tell you what they think you are capable of understanding. If you ask good questions then you will get good answers. You do need to look after your own interests somewhat. I'm sure that's true everywhere.

I have several family members and friends that are doctors (some that have administrative and academic duties as well) and I can't say that there are disgruntled employees. I've had no trouble with nurses or any other staff. Like anybody else if you ask nicely you're more likely to get better service. These people are busy.

In Sweden we have virtually the same system as Canada but here it seems to be workin a bit better. I've never heard of anyone here losing a relative because of a waiting list or such.

585846567[/snapback]

Unless we are talking about organ transplants, waiting lists in Canada are usually limited to elective surgeries. Cancer and other life-threatening surgeries are prioritized over others.

Where people in Canada complain is with elective back-surgeries to relieve pain. They aren't life-threatening but they affect the quality of life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Probably because you've never lost relatives on a waiting list or needed to wait a year for a surgery or ever gone to the emergency and waited hours, or .... The health care system seems fine until you need it.

There's not enough beds, old broken and worn technology, and many lines and waits. On top of that disgruntled employees all over the place.

585844047[/snapback]

I have known people who needed those services and never had to wait any significent time for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think our Health Care is in bad condition. I think people are believing the media's spinnging way to much.

I have an eye condition called strabismus, basically it means minutely crossed eyes from birth. I've had numerous cosmetic surgeries to corrent the condition (I will have to have one every 7 or 8 years to keep em straight). The first time I decided to have the cosmetic surgery was 2 years ago. After I made the desicion I had two possible surgery dates. One would require a 2 day wait, the other a 7 day wait. That doesn't seem to bad...

I also had to have my knee scoped. Upon that desicion I had to wait a whole 2 weeks to have it scoped for floating cartilage.

Emerygency room waits are the only time I've noticed any significant delay. And I'm only talking about a 20 minute wait to mend a broken bone.

I think our healthcare system is good, but it has the potential to be great!

-Ax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well i have a grandma in ontario died because her surgery kept getting pushed back and it was life threatening. I had a grampa in new brunswick wait years to fix his back. There was shattered bone in there and nerve pinching. Not life threatening but entirely crippling. My aunt eventually got him into mcgill university hospital. She has a job there.

This is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of people i know who've been shafted by the system. Many in bc, many across the country. Live outside a big city? Good luck! I've been to places and have family/know people where they simply don't have enough gp's even with a sizable population.

Seeing a specialist, even for a serious condition, usually means a long wait. They book up quickly.

I think its ironic that we're willing to ship paitents down to private clinics in the US because they have the equipment and everything while we're not willing to do it in canada.

I must also say that some diseases are better funded than others but that's expected and a fact of life.

The way i see our health care system is that people are getting older, people are getting fatter, and look how much money it takes takes to get the care we do have. Propping it up forever is just not an option. What needs to happen is a reorganization and management.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think its ironic that we're willing to ship paitents down to private clinics in the US because they have the equipment and everything while we're not willing to do it in canada.

585848362[/snapback]

It may be a little more costly, but less costly than death!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless all you can afford is death!

I understand the need for public healthcare but the way it is managed in canada is very "socialist". Private clinics can often be outsourced cheaper than hospitals for surgeries and they're very efficient, clean, safe, and reputable. Like i said, we do it in BC for workers compensation and it's worked marvelously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Canadian healthcare system is pretty much a pile of steaming poo...no offense to the Canadian neowinians reading this. A privitized healthcare system is by far superior. I sell health policies to Canadians all the time because they 1) don't want to be put in a position to wait for health benefits and 2) they want the best to perform these procedures. The great thing about a privitized system is that it attracts the best talent from around the world because they can get very very wealthy in this type of system.

As for a comparison between Europen and Canadian systems I couldn't say...I'm not as familiar with European Healthcare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Canadian healthcare system is pretty much a pile of steaming poo...no offense to the Canadian neowinians reading this. A privitized healthcare system is by far superior. I sell health policies to Canadians all the time because they 1) don't want to be put in a position to wait for health benefits and 2) they want the best to perform these procedures. The great thing about a privitized system is that it attracts the best talent from around the world because they can get very very wealthy in this type of system.

As for a comparison between Europen and Canadian systems I couldn't say...I'm not as familiar with European Healthcare.

585850364[/snapback]

Well said. Couldn't agree more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the biggest problem with our health care system is the idealogy associated with it. It's uncanadian to have anything else. That's pretty much what the liberals call anything they don't do. A lot of people buy what they say. Hence, no one is willing to take a clean sober look at many things we do because its not politically correct, or uncanadian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the biggest problem with our health care system is the idealogy associated with it. It's uncanadian to have anything else. That's pretty much what the liberals call anything they don't do. A lot of people buy what they say. Hence, no one is willing to take a clean sober look at many things we do because its not politically correct, or uncanadian.

585850491[/snapback]

Yea that could be true...we here in America also have the same problem with some of our own issues also (as we all know).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless all you can afford is death!

I understand the need for public healthcare but the way it is managed in canada is very "socialist". Private clinics can often be outsourced cheaper than hospitals for surgeries and they're very efficient, clean, safe, and reputable. Like i said, we do it in BC for workers compensation and it's worked marvelously.

585849984[/snapback]

Actually, public health systems have been found more efficient than private clinics in numerous studies including Harvard Medical School.

Canada's health care system is not as socialist as you think. Ask a doctor. Except for certain academic or upper administrative types, who are usually very well enumerated, doctors in Canada are almost all in private practice and bill the provincial plans depending on the number of patients they see.

You could claim that Canada has a socialistic healthcare INSURANCE system but not a socialistic healthcare system. Essentially what the government does in Canada is similar to a province-wide HMO plan (in US terms).

Americans often think that we can't choose our own doctors. There is a lot of misinformation out there.

n.b. While healthcare in Canada is national, items that are covered (i.e. naturalpaths and chiropracters) vary from province to province slightly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, public health systems have been found more efficient than private clinics in numerous studies including Harvard Medical School.

Canada's health care system is not as socialist as you think.  Ask a doctor.  Except for certain academic or upper administrative types, who are usually very well enumerated, doctors in Canada are almost all in private practice and bill the provincial plans depending on the number of patients they see.

You could claim that Canada has a socialistic healthcare INSURANCE system but not a socialistic healthcare system.  Essentially what the government does in Canada is similar to a province-wide HMO plan (in US terms).

Americans often think that we can't choose our own doctors.  There is a lot of misinformation out there.

n.b. While healthcare in Canada is national, items that are covered (i.e. naturalpaths and chiropracters) vary from province to province slightly.

585850703[/snapback]

Why do such astonishing numbers of Canadian doctors flock to the U.S. then? Surely if there is such a shortage and comparable opportunities and conditions exist, this phenomenon just doesn't make since.

I'm not trying to attack Canada's system. I think it is held with good intentions, but far from perfect. What good is giving 100 percent of Canadians healthcare if many of them can't find doctors, or have long waiting times when they need it most? These problems simply don't exist in the U.S. with our more privatized system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well i have a grandma in ontario died because her surgery kept getting pushed back and it was life threatening. I had a grampa in new brunswick wait years to fix his back. There was shattered bone in there and nerve pinching. Not life threatening but entirely crippling. My aunt eventually got him into mcgill university hospital. She has a job there.

585848362[/snapback]

I'm sorry about your grandparents but hospitals are often not inclined to perform surgery on the elderly where their chance of recovery is drastically smaller than someone younger. A huge percentage of healthcare is spent on patients that will die within six months.

I've stated before that cases of chronic back pain are often wait listed. This is also done because the surgery to correct the problem has a fairly low success rate. It is not uncommon for a second surgery to fix scar tissue and it isn't that uncommon that the final result is more back pain rather than less. Again, the older you are the less likely it is to succeed.

Performing surgery on people over a certain age, depending on this physical condition, will commonly result in a quicker death or a lower quality of life. I know the family usually looks for the silver lining but...

Why do such astonishing numbers of Canadian doctors flock to the U.S. then? Surely if there is such a shortage and comparable opportunities and conditions exist, this phenomenon just doesn't make since.

I'm not trying to attack Canada's system. I think it is held with good intentions, but far from perfect. What good is giving 100 percent of Canadians healthcare if many of them can't find doctors, or have long waiting times when they need it most? These problems simply don't exist in the U.S. with our more privatized system.

585850731[/snapback]

a) Certain types of doctors "flock" to the states more than others. Cosmetic surgery is not covered in Canada and not many Canadians have cosmetic surgery. Certain types of specialists in Canada complain about their per-patient compensation, radiologists for example.

b) One thing that really sucks in Canada is research. We don't do much of it. So many doctors who are interested in medical research leave because they have little choice. That being said, a family friend of ours is a world renouned neurologist who sees relatively little patients unless their condition is important to his research. He could make much more in the US but he chooses to stay here. It's not like he's poor.

c) The concept of Canadian doctors "flocking" to the United States is mostly a myth. In 2000 there was a net migration of 242 doctors nationwide. According to nationmaster we have 2.1 doctors per 1000 citizens or about 66150 doctors. So that's less than half of one percent that left. Given the rise of the Canadian dollar, I'd expect that number to have been reduced significantly in the last five years.

d) Again, I would say that I've never had a problem finding a doctor. I don't go to the emergency with a headache and my family has had both elective and non-elective surgery without significant wait times.

Edited by fred666
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why do such astonishing numbers of Canadian doctors flock to the U.S. then? Surely if there is such a shortage and comparable opportunities and conditions exist, this phenomenon just doesn't make since.

585850731[/snapback]

Trust me, its not for the hospitality...

I think the biggest problem with our health care system is the idealogy associated with it. It's uncanadian to have anything else. That's pretty much what the liberals call anything they don't do. A lot of people buy what they say. Hence, no one is willing to take a clean sober look at many things we do because its not politically correct, or uncanadian.

585850491[/snapback]

Damn our equality! Its a shame that the people promoting the privatized healthcare system seem to neglect that a good proportion of its population cannot afford their expert filled system.

I certainly cannot bring myself to accept a system that only caters to those that can afford it. That is just wrong.

Everyone seems to skim over the fact that we're sticking with this system because it means that single mother with 2 childer on a low income job doesn't have to worry about her kids getting hurt and having to foot the bill for the next 20 years because her World Level expert charges $500 to fix a broken bone, or that the 82 year old woman on a fixed pension is unable to afford that new hip she needs. How can we turn our backs on those people?

If our system is flawed, then yes, it needs repair. But you don't scrap an entire healthcare system that does so much for everyone in the entire country. We cannot neglect the healthcare of the poor and elderly.

Healthcare should be universal. I am perfectly fine paying my taxes to help out my fellow Canadians live a longer, better, healther life.

-Ax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Incidentally, as to the original question, maybe this answers it:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/hea_pr...∫=-1&id=OECD

Perhaps someone can bother finding the number of doctors per 1000 people in the US to add to that list.

Nevermind, it reached a peak of 2.7 doctors per 1000 people in 2000 but it has been dropping since then.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2005-0...-shortage_x.htm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

a) Certain types of doctors "flock" to the states more than others.  Cosmetic surgery is not covered in Canada and not many Canadians have cosmetic surgery. Certain types of specialists in Canada complain about their per-patient compensation, radiologists for example.

b) One thing that really sucks in Canada is research.  We don't do much of it.  So many doctors who are interested in medical research leave because they have little choice.  That being said, a family friend of ours is a world renouned neurologist who sees relatively little patients unless their condition is important to his research.  He could make much more in the US but he chooses to stay here.  It's not like he's poor.

c) The concept of Canadian doctors "flocking" to the United States is mostly a myth.  In 2000 there was a net migration of 242 doctors nationwide.  According to nationmaster we have 2.1 doctors per 1000 citizens or about 66150 doctors.  So that's less than half of one percent that left.  Given the rise of the Canadian dollar, I'd expect that number to have been reduced significantly in the last five years.

d) Again, I would say that I've never had a problem finding a doctor. I don't go to the emergency with a headache and my family has had both elective and non-elective surgery without significant wait times.

585850774[/snapback]

Well you'd know better than me, but I've just read and heard a lot about it.

The NY Times said "There was a net migration of 49 neurosurgeons from Canada from 1996 to 2002, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, a large loss given that there are only 241 neurosurgeons in the country" , but like you said, it could just be that one specific area.

Somewhere I read there were around 10,000 Canadian physicians who have chosen to move to the U.S.. I'll try to find the source if I can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trust me, its not for the hospitality...

585850780[/snapback]

Meaning? You've heard of Canadian doctors being treated badly in the U.S? ... or was that just another quip to show your dislike of the country in general?

on a related note, a Harvard study once found Canadian doctors to be the most unhappy in the world. again i'll try to find where I saw that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well you'd know better than me, but I've just read and heard a lot about it.

The NY Times said "There was a net migration of 49 neurosurgeons from Canada from 1996 to 2002, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information, a large loss given that there are only 241 neurosurgeons in the country" , but like you said, it could just be that one specific area.

Somewhere I read there were around 10,000 Canadian physicians who have chosen to move to the U.S.. I'll try to find the source if I can.

585850801[/snapback]

That is one of the effected areas. Specialized surgeons and medical research doctors are the most likely types to leave Canada. I would assume that the rise of the Canadian dollar would have stemmed the tide somewhat.

Given the current federal scandal in Quebec which is fueling a rise in separatism again, however, I'm not sure the value of the Canadian dollar will hold its current value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Meaning? You've heard of Canadian doctors being treated badly in the U.S? ... or was that just another quip to show your dislike of the country in general?

on a related note, a Harvard study once found Canadian doctors to be the most unhappy in the world. again i'll try to find where I saw that

585850816[/snapback]

More than half the doctors that leave Canada for better salaries in the US end up returning after a few years. It is commonly sited that the Canadian system is considered more ethical (or perhaps just more comforting to Canadian values).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.