Does Europe have better public healthcare systems


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More than half the doctors that leave Canada for better salaries in the US end up returning after a few years.  It is commonly sited that the Canadian system is considered more ethical (or perhaps just more comforting to Canadian values).

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I take great pride in our compassion and respect for the fellow man. Its a shame that that principle is lost on other people.

-Ax

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Everyone seems to skim over the fact that we're sticking with this system because it means that single mother with 2 childer on a low income job doesn't have to worry about her kids getting hurt and having to foot the bill for the next 20 years because her World Level expert charges $500 to fix a broken bone, or that the 82 year old woman on a fixed pension is unable to afford that new hip she needs. How can we turn our backs on those people?

Does this mean I get to get my tax money back from a program that does not exist in the US???

Medicare and Medicaid do exist at the Federal and State level here in the US. The people above are the people that it is designed to help. It may have its issues at time, but it does work.

Seems there is some misinformation about how the health care systems work on both sides of them border.

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For the last time universal healtchare is quite a nice concept. That's not what we're debating. The dealie is that i was talking about a europeon style system where there are private clinics mixed in with public but everyone gets great care. For the last time this is NOT a private system. I doubt those in amsterdam would go for it. They're more socialist than us!

And the americans have nice hospitality. WTF was that statement about.

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.... his cancer surgery in about a week after the final diagnosis and ....

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I'm not that sure if people here in the USA would settle to wait a week for cancer surgery. I had a golf ball sized tumor removed from my gums and from the day they found out to the day day they removed it was 3 days.

I'm not to sure if government run programs are necessary. It's a little scary to think of the government control more of your life. Govt in general are good for its people but you don't want to give them too much say on what and how you do stuff. I can say I'm happy with the way our health system is, I just like to see the govt add a little more control on the price we all have to pay for our medical cost. Pharmaceutical companies are making Billions of dollars profit every year and their profits are increasing every year also. There's something wrong there and if a govt wants to step in for its people, that would be a place to start. I can't imagine in 40 years when I'll be in the same situation as my grandparents :no:

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A week is seriously fast up here (reserved for life and death stuff). IF you wanna see a specialist its usually a few months after seeing the GP and then a few months to 2 years for a surgery.

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The Canadian healthcare system is pretty much a pile of steaming poo...no offense to the Canadian neowinians reading this. A privitized healthcare system is by far superior. I sell health policies to Canadians all the time because they 1) don't want to be put in a position to wait for health benefits and 2) they want the best to perform these procedures. The great thing about a privitized system is that it attracts the best talent from around the world because they can get very very wealthy in this type of system.

As for a comparison between Europen and Canadian systems I couldn't say...I'm not as familiar with European Healthcare.

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yup... i don't have a great deal of trust in our public system, that is why i willingly pay for medical services when i need them. It works out quite well becuase those of us that prefer to use private services leave room open to others that want to use the public system.

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This is off topic.....but why the are my posts showing under Fred666's name HERE?

[fred666: I have no idea but here is a small fix...]

Trust me, its not for the hospitality...

Haha yea...and you sound like a warm fuzzy canadian. And an extremely intelligent one also. :whistle:

Damn our equality! Its a shame that the people promoting the privatized healthcare system seem to neglect that a good proportion of its population cannot afford their expert filled system.

I certainly cannot bring myself to accept a system that only caters to those that can afford it. That is just wrong.

Yeaaaaaa....you obviously know nothing about privitized healthcare. Hop in your car and drive down to inhospitable nation south of you. Then walk into a doctors office and look at the signs on the walls. They clearly state that anyone who walks into the office MUST be seen and treated. Why? It's the law. Do you realize this? If you cannot afford to pay the bills the hospital writes them off and the people who CAN afford insurance make up for them in their next years premiums. OHHHHHH and I forgot...we also have FREEEEEEE clinics all of the US. These clinics are the main alternative for those who cannot afford healthcare.

So yea...it looks like the elderly woman and the lady with 2 children are having alot of backs turned on them.

I take great pride in our compassion and respect for the fellow man. Its a shame that that principle is lost on other people.

Screw compassion and respect....I'll take the best physicians in the world for my family anyday.

I'm not that sure if people here in the USA would settle to wait a week for cancer surgery. I had a golf ball sized tumor removed from my gums and from the day they found out to the day day they removed it was 3 days.

Your exactly right...people here wouldn't settle for it. I don't think Americans like the idea of prioritizing the importance of lives either. Like taking a 20 year old for treatment of a life threatening issue over a 55 year old, just because the 20 year old is younger. It's an extremely cold and utilitarian approach.

Edited by fred666
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Haha yea...and you sound like a warm fuzzy canadian. And an extremely intelligent one also.  :whistle:

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I'm only brutally honest to the deserving.

I won't do much replying other than to say, I don't deny America's health care system doesnt work for those who can afford it. I'm also greatful that my Government is also willing to pay to use the US's healthcare system to fix the cracks in our own.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your non-sensical rant becuase it's steering me and the rest of us way off topic to an all to common argument (US Vs. Canada).

From what I've seen of Europe, its hard to compare and generalize the entire contient. Healthcare there varies from country to country. I only hear good things about Sweeden and Norway's healthcare system. Any chance we could have some more Europeans weigh in on this topic?

-Ax

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Why do such astonishing numbers of Canadian doctors flock to the U.S. then? Surely if there is such a shortage and comparable opportunities and conditions exist, this phenomenon just doesn't make since.

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Money. Because of the national system, provincial budgets don't allow for the same money as is available in a private system such as the US.

b) One thing that really sucks in Canada is research.  We don't do much of it.  So many doctors who are interested in medical research leave because they have little choice.  That being said, a family friend of ours is a world renouned neurologist who sees relatively little patients unless their condition is important to his research.  He could make much more in the US but he chooses to stay here.  It's not like he's poor.

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McGill University is one of the leading research facilities, and it attracts many foreign doctors.

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McGill University is one of the leading research facilities, and it attracts many foreign doctors.

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True. Sick Kids Hospital in Toronto also draws many world experts but my point was more about private funding from pharmaceutical companies. Once you get beyond a few prominant universities in Canada, that are likely ultra-competitive, there isn't a lot of grant money for those doing research (particarly applied research).

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I'm only brutally honest to the deserving.

Or extremely foolish may be a better description... ;)

For someone who is such a "liberal" thinker your awfully closed minded and backwards for think that all Americans are rude and so on. I don't know what has happened to you when you've visited America (or if you have at all)...but with an attitude like that I'm suprised you made it back to Canada.

I'm not going to reply to the rest of your non-sensical rant becuase it's steering me and the rest of us way off topic to an all to common argument (US Vs. Canada).

Non-sensical?? This is the field in which I earn a living...nothing "non-sensical" about it. My posts concerning privitized vs. state healthcare are very accurate. You just better hope you don't need a heart transplant anytime soon is all I have to say....

btw: It's cute how NOW you don't want a topic to get off course into a US vs. Canada debate...but other topics you post in you find a way to turn it into the same thing...just to get a little canadian jab in at the US.

I won't do much replying other than to say, I don't deny America's health care system doesnt work for those who can afford it. I'm also greatful that my Government is also willing to pay to use the US's healthcare system to fix the cracks in our own.

A privitized healthcare system not only works for those who can afford it but also for those who can't....read my entire post about what happens when services rendered can't be paid for.

Edited by DreAming in DigITal
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Alright, you wanted to keep this going...

Those clinics you speak of. Free, ok I don't know too many clinics that can perform life saving surgeries. And if they do, I doubt they would be free. How does someone with Diabetes go to that free clinic and get insulin?

In Canada our services may take longer to access, and that is a problem we are attemping to address. But at least everyone can have access to the latest technological innovations. Our healthcare service isn't determined by your social class.

As you said, in the states those free clinics are for those who cannot afford the big fancy, well equiptment corporate hospitals.

I would have a hard time believing you will recieve EXACTLY the same care in the clinic as they would in a HMO.

And what about subsidizing other services like Chiropractic care and physiotherapy?

Yes I do swerve off topic at times myself, but now I'm trying to stop it and you seem to want to stoop to another immature low and keep the arguement going.

-Ax

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This topic is about Canada vs Europe not Canada vs the US.

Suffice to say that we, in Canada, do not want a US-style system and they, in the US, do not want a Canadian-style system.

Let's wait for some Europeans to talk about two-tiered health care.

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Alright, you wanted to keep this going...

Those clinics you speak of. Free, ok I don't know too many clinics that can perform life saving surgeries. And if they do, I doubt they would be free. How does someone with Diabetes go to that free clinic and get insulin?

Actually you can be referred to another provider by a free clinic. It's very similar to the HMO system. You go to the free clinic and get diagnosed, then referred out to a facility that will meet your needs (surgeons, chiropractors, therapists, etc). I actually know a lady personally who had an experimental and very expensive brain surgery at Duke University for free like this. She can't work due to a head injury she recieved so she has no income. Since she has no income she qualifies to use the free clinic system. Alot of people here in the US either don't realize their availability and usefulness (then they moan about not being able to afford coverage) or they are too "proud" to go because of the stigma associated with them (then they moan some more). But they are a great tool for low income people.

About your diabetic question...the clinics also administer DME Supplys (Durable Medical Equipment). This includes syringes, insulin, nebulizers, insulin pumps, tenders, reservoirs, and all of the durable medical supplys.

Now for people who make just enough to not be qualified for free clinics but can barely make ends meet there is a plan called a "Standard Plan". Every insurance company must offer this...it's a basic plan that covers major medical, dental, vision, etc...

But yea...this isn't about the US...I just wanted to post this for you.

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But at least everyone can have access to the latest technological innovations.

Uhhh far from the truth buddy. We got old worn equipment everywhere. Actually it's the private clinics here that sport the best. That and we sometimes take wayyy too long to approve drugs. Some perfectly valid, highly effective drugs are approved in the US while barely starting here.

It's quite an interresting topic for me because i'm interrested in doing biomedical engineering in graduate school. We have all the brains in canada and all the potential in the world. Funding isn't quite like it is in the states, for any project.

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Uhhh far from the truth buddy. We got old worn equipment everywhere. Actually it's the private clinics here that sport the best. That and we sometimes take wayyy too long to approve drugs. Some perfectly valid, highly effective drugs are approved in the US while barely starting here.

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Private clinics in Ontario were plagued with problems and were shut down.

Many hospitals here face an opposite problem. Each hospital is a private little fiefdom. There is a lot of competition between hospitals and hospital administrators and they often buy the latest technology to keep up their reputations. The result of which may mean that they have less resources for nurses or other important (but less flashy) services.

The have been attempting to resolve this by encourage hospitals to focus on one or two specific areas (to reduce the overlap) and to facility a greater cooperation between hospitals to share equipment.

Don't forget that along University Avenue. Mt. Sinai, Toronto General, Princess Margaret, Women's College and the Hospital for Sick Children are all right next to one another.

http://www.mtsinai.on.ca

http://www.uhn.ca/tgh

http://www.uhn.ca/pmh/

http://www.sunnybrookandwomens.on.ca

http://www.sickkids.on.ca

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Sounds to me like ontario has management problems. Was it that conservative government that attempted it?

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The NDP before them. The Conservatives really ran the province down. The amalgomation of the five cities that because the (megacity) Toronto really screwed things up. The irony was that it was supposed to save money and it didn't even do that.

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The Canadian healthcare system is pretty much a pile of steaming poo...no offense to the Canadian neowinians reading this. A privitized healthcare system is by far superior. I sell health policies to Canadians all the time because they 1) don't want to be put in a position to wait for health benefits and 2) they want the best to perform these procedures. The great thing about a privitized system is that it attracts the best talent from around the world because they can get very very wealthy in this type of system.

As for a comparison between Europen and Canadian systems I couldn't say...I'm not as familiar with European Healthcare.

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It might attract the best, but then you have the problem of money. Rember the problem with flu shots this year? Canada had enough but the US didnt becuse the US wouldnt pay enough money for them.

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It might attract the best, but then you have the problem of money. Rember the problem with flu shots this year? Canada had enough but the US didnt becuse the US wouldnt pay enough money for them.

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lol the only reason flu shots were a big deal is because every news channel in the nations says "This years flue season will be the worse EVER" for 2 or 3 months straight and scare the living crap out of older folks. This was never a problem until 2 or 3 years ago when the media started flipping out about the flu and talking people into getting flu shots who don't need them.

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