kizzaaa Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Do you think students be allowed to wear religious dress to schools? I personally do not think it's a good idea to dress that 'religiously' to school as it can create problems with bullying and stereo-types/seperates these students from other students. What do you guys think? :whistle: SCHOOL uniform policy has been thrown into chaos after a Muslim girl won a special exemption to wear a religious garment in class.Principals fear students will now try to flout school uniform rules in up to 2250 schools across the state. The Education Department said religious garments were included in the uniform policy because of anti-discrimination laws but sports clothing was not. School heads expressed serious concern yesterday about the case of Yasamin Alttahir, 17, who clashed with Auburn Girls High School over the wearing of a mantoo, an ankle-length religious tunic. One of the authors of the state's uniform policy, Secondary Principals' Council president Chris Bonnor, said the controversy had left school heads confused. "Now how many other students will put their hand up [for changes to their uniform]?" he said. "How will the department help that school to draw the line?" While Ms Alttahir has been cleared to wear the religious tunic at Auburn Girls High, principals made it clear sports clothing such as a Bulldogs scarf or an Eels beanie were on the banned list. Mr Bonnor questioned whether the Auburn case was more about a student and family wanting to "test the system", rather than a conscientious decision involving deeply held beliefs. After wearing the mantoo for two years, the Iraqi-born Sh'ite Muslim was told it did not comply with the school's uniform policy. After receiving a detention slip she threatened to go to the Anti-Discrimination Board, saying it was her right to wear what she wanted. This was despite local Muslim community leaders being involved in drawing up the school's uniform policy. The Education Department's regional director of southwestern Sydney, Kim Fillingham, said Ms Alttahir was not allowed to wear the dress to school because she did not have a note from her parents. Ms Alttahir's parents have now provided the note, saying their daughter wanted to wear the gown because of its "religious significance". A department spokesman said last night: "This fulfils the requirements of the uniform policy to allow the variation - it is not a backdown." Advertisement: Ms Alttahir remained adamant she did not need permission to wear her mantoo, which she had tailored to cover her frame and match the Auburn Girls High School green uniform colour. Principal of Holroyd High School Dorothy Hoddinott also said the problem of where to draw the line on uniform changes was "an issue". "We have quite a variety of uniform at Holroyd - if parents cannot operate within that, then we need to negotiate," she said. News Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted May 17, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 17, 2005 Religious dress in public schools is normal around here. Girls wear hajibs. Boys wear traditional Muslim robes, etc... Sikhs wear kirpans. Christians wear crosses. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 And we are one step closer to uniforms.....good thing I am out of school. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaulz Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Jeez, make everybody miserable... put 'em in uniforms and avoid the problems! [edit] beat me to it... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kizzaaa Posted May 17, 2005 Author Share Posted May 17, 2005 :blink: I forgot most schools in north america don't have uniforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Jeez, make everybody miserable... put 'em in uniforms and avoid the problems![edit] beat me to it... :( 585933638[/snapback] hehe..well, that is an answer. Personally, I don't care what people wear. I think uniforms would be worse than individuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raekwon Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Do you think students be allowed to wear religious dress to schools?I personally do not think it's a good idea to dress that 'religiously' to school as it can create problems with bullying and stereo-types/seperates these students from other students. What do you guys think? :whistle: News Source 585933568[/snapback] i really don't think that disallowing "religious dress" in schools will eliminate or even alleviate bullying or any of the other problems you're talking about here. unfortunately, kids will be kids . . . bullies will always exist, as will stereotypes and cliques. additionally, many religions texts speak of the inevitability (and value) of "suffering" for one's faith . . . bullying would certainly fall under this umbrella. i think that school uniform policies should leave some leeway for legitimate religious garb . . . freedom to practice one's religion often includes how one dresses. (i say "legitimate" because some moron will inevitably come dressed to school like a hooker and say that it's "against her religion" not so do so.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamz Veteran Posted May 17, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 17, 2005 i don't think bullying should be an argument for or against religious garb. if the bully problem exists, tackle it head on. disallowing religious garb to avoid bullying is an ad-hoc and false solution. but we should respect kids' desire to express their religious sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raum Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 As long a the religious dress isn't causing undue distraction, putting others in danger etc, I'm fine with it. However, it should be treated with equality. For instance, at my school you could wear a Jesus shirt, but if you wore something with a pentagram on it they'd generally make you turn it inside out because "It was satanic" That's BS IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 I don't believe in restrictive dress codes in school. It's discriminatory to students, and in a lot of cases (especially when there's a dress code but not actually a specific uniform) it's way more trouble than it's worth. They are not in prison or in boot camp, they're children in school. Not wearing dangerous jewellery, not having over-revealing clothing, and not having pornography/profanity on the clothes, that's a good dress code for me. Anything more than that is fascist. I believe that religious dress should be allowed in schools, but, obviously, i also believe that restrictive dress codes should not. You can't give everybody a dress code and then say, oh, OK, these guys can be exceptions to the rule. SORRY EVERYBODY ELSE While the quality of the education itself is probably lower, i'd have to say that, from what i've heard of other countries, the actual schooling experience in America (and probably Canada) is much better than it is in most other places. Schooling in Britain, for example, is just so absolutely fascist, i can hardly fathom it. Australia sounds pretty close to the same way. Japan and China are lame too. So are Latin-American countries. sux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamz Veteran Posted May 17, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 17, 2005 I don't believe in restrictive dress codes in school. It's discriminatory to students, and in a lot of cases (especially when there's a dress code but not actually a specific uniform) it's way more trouble than it's worth. They are not in prison or in boot camp, they're children in school. Not wearing dangerous jewellery, not having over-revealing clothing, and not having pornography/profanity on the clothes, that's a good dress code for me. Anything more than that is fascist.I believe that religious dress should be allowed in schools, but, obviously, i also believe that restrictive dress codes should not. You can't give everybody a dress code and then say, oh, OK, these guys can be exceptions to the rule. SORRY EVERYBODY ELSE 585934341[/snapback] agreed. the goal is to place reasonable limits on freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PseudoRandomDragon Posted May 17, 2005 Share Posted May 17, 2005 Why does a guy get to wear something on his head because he's Jewish? I dont mind that he/she does, but the policy is unfair and uses religion to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raekwon Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Why does a guy get to wear something on his head because he's Jewish? I dont mind that he/she does, but the policy is unfair and uses religion to justify it. 585934483[/snapback] :rolleyes: there's a qualitative difference between wearing a yarmulke because you're Jewish, and wearing your favourite team's hat because you want to. there's nothing "unfair" about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTUsEr Veteran Posted May 18, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 18, 2005 I'm not againts kids wearing religious symbols or dress in schools, But if you ban one, you have to ban all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle-dude Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 What is up with you americans and your obsession with conformity and banning things? Being different is ok. Man, there must be a lot of soldiers rolling in their graves because of some of you people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 What are you talking about? America and Canada have the two least-fascist education systems in the world. If you want to talk about conformity, look at Britain or any east-Asian country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kizzaaa Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 What is up with you americans and your obsession with conformity and banning things? Being different is ok. Man, there must be a lot of soldiers rolling in their graves because of some of you people. 585937151[/snapback] The news source is Australian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemania Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 The Education Department's regional director of southwestern Sydney, Kim Fillingham, said Ms Alttahir was not allowed to wear the dress to school because she did not have a note from her parents. Is it that hard for her to get a freaking note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Douglas Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Why does a guy get to wear something on his head because he's Jewish? I dont mind that he/she does, but the policy is unfair and uses religion to justify it. 585934483[/snapback] hah, "I became Jewish for the hats" :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lara_rose Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Wearing a school uniform over here in UK is second nature. I certainly don't consider it any more fascist than say wearing a uniform to work. Its just the dress code and that is that. There has to be a measure of authority in schools and wearing the school uniform is just part and parcel of the whole caboodle. After all, if one started work at say..Mcdonalds (because the uniform is globally the same), one wouldn't question its dress code right? You'd just accept it because that is what is expected. I went to school with kids of many cultures/religions, muslims included and none of them have had issues with wearing the school uniform. Despite the opinions of some people on this thread, our schools do respect the individualism of students of certain cultures and will in most cases make allowances, ie allowing trousers to be worn by girls, the wearing of headscarves etc..i don't feel it is unreasonable to ask that anything else relating to religion and cultural pursuits be kept seperate from the school agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 There has to be a measure of authority in schools and wearing the school uniform is just part and parcel of the whole caboodle. After all, if one started work at say..Mcdonalds (because the uniform is globally the same), one wouldn't question its dress code right? You'd just accept it because that is what is expected.585937671[/snapback] (1) Schools were not developed to have 'authority' over children. They were developed to educate them. The purpose of the school is to teach kids science and maths and language, not to break them in. That's the parents' job. (2) Uniforms (even in the work place) are discriminatory. To have an expectation that women should wear skirts, or that men should shave their beards or have short hair, or that someone shouldn't cover their face in public, or that someone shouldn't wear whatever item is customary to their religion, even if you can go get a note so you can be an exception, is naturally discrimination. There isn't a whole lot anyone can do about this in the real world (and, as much as i disagree with the idea of it myself, i think private citizens should be allowed a certain degree of freedom regarding it), but we can at least try for it in places like public schools. (3) I may accept a uniform, but i would also accept payment if i started to work at McDonald's. Kids aren't hired by the school. They don't get paid to work for the school. They don't represent the school. To use 'well you'd expect it at <insert place of employment>!' as a justification for school uniforms just does not work, because i'd expect A LOT of things at <insert place of employment> that i can't (or don't) expect at school. (4) Aside from everything else, they're children. These are supposed to be the best days of their lives; to treat them like they're in a military academy (or like they're at work, which is probably even worse), even if it's only 7 hours a day for 5 days a week, is a horrible thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lara_rose Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 (1) Schools were not developed to have 'authority' over children. They were developed to educate them. The purpose of the school is to teach kids science and maths and language, not to break them in. That's the parents' job.(2) Uniforms (even in the work place) are discriminatory. To have an expectation that women should wear skirts, or that men should shave their beards or have short hair, or that someone shouldn't cover their face in public, or that someone shouldn't wear whatever item is customary to their religion, even if you can go get a note so you can be an exception, is naturally discrimination. There isn't a whole lot anyone can do about this in the real world (and, as much as i disagree with the idea of it myself, i think private citizens should be allowed a certain degree of freedom regarding it), but we can at least try for it in places like public schools. (3) I may accept a uniform, but i would also accept payment if i started to work at McDonald's. Kids aren't hired by the school. They don't get paid to work for the school. They don't represent the school. To use 'well you'd expect it at <insert place of employment>!' as a justification for school uniforms just does not work, because i'd expect A LOT of things at <insert place of employment> that i can't (or don't) expect at school. (4) Aside from everything else, they're children. These are supposed to be the best days of their lives; to treat them like they're in a military academy (or like they're at work, which is probably even worse), even if it's only 7 hours a day for 5 days a week, is a horrible thing to do. 585937710[/snapback] 1) If there was no authority is schools..education would not work..how would the teachers perform their jobs if a measure of authority is not dispensed? Explain to me how if you were a teacher, to tell your students when the test will end or when to hand in home work? If that is not excersing your authority as a teacher, then i don't know what is. 2) In an ideal world we can bloody well wear whatever we want..but this is the real world. whilst i agree with you that it is discriminatory to expect women to wear skirts etc..most uniforms are put in place for a specific reason..i certainly wouldn't want a person with flowing hair and an unkempt beard serving up my meal for me in a restuarant. 3) If the students do not represent the school, then who does? The teachers? the Parents? The little old man who lives down the lane? 4) Lol..how does wearing a school uniform equate to being in a military academy? Sorry to tell you this.. but when the kids go through the school gates in their smart uniforms..all they do is read, write and just generally have a fun time learning..pretty much the same as kids who do not wear uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted May 18, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 18, 2005 When schools in North America choose to adopt a dress-code it is not usually done for pedagogical (educational) reasons. It is usually done to curb violence (i.e. gang colours), to smooth the transition from rich to poor or for some other non-academic reason. Students are very clever and kids will find a way to use red or blue laces (to show gang colours) or they'll purchase Prada shoes and use diamond-studded hairclips to get their point across. I have yet to see a study that links school uniforms to increased academic performance. Clearly most teachers in North America have found a way to enforce school discipline regardless of what clothing the students wear. http://www.aprod.org/myths.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 1) If there was no authority is schools..education would not work..how would the teachers perform their jobs if a measure of authority is not dispensed? Explain to me how if you were a teacher, to tell your students when the test will end or when to hand in home work? If that is not excersing your authority as a teacher, then i don't know what is.585937778[/snapback] Educational authority. A lack of uniforms is not going to prevent a teacher from telling her students when a test will end or when to hand in home work. I should know, i kinda went to uniform-less schools for 9 years. It worked out pretty swell, i'd say. There were no riots in the streets. Kids still got detentions if they disrupted class. Kids still failed if they didn't do well in their school work. 2) In an ideal world we can bloody well wear whatever we want..but this is the real world. whilst i agree with you that it is discriminatory to expect women to wear skirts etc..most uniforms are put in place for a specific reason..i certainly wouldn't want a person with flowing hair and an unkempt beard serving up my meal for me in a restuarant.585937778[/snapback] In some cases it works for a reason. In other cases it doesn't. I did go to a school with a dress code for a little over 2 years, and one of the expectations was that boys were to have no facial hair. (Of course, this rule didn't apply to teachers, like a lot of the dress-code rules.) What possible logical purpose does that serve? There isn't one, it's just a stupid rule somebody made up. It applies in all kinds of other places, too, not just at school. But... school is the main subject, so w/e 3) If the students do not represent the school, then who does? The teachers? the Parents? The little old man who lives down the lane?585937778[/snapback] The employees of the school do. I know your teachers always used to say you've gotta do well at your band competition or on your standardised test or in your basketball game, but that's nonsense. Students are more like customers than anything. 4) Lol..how does wearing a school uniform equate to being in a military academy?585937778[/snapback] Uniform requirements in a lot of cases are a 'discipline, discipline, discipline' thing. Just like military academy. Sorry to tell you this.. but when the kids go through the school gates in their smart uniforms..all they do is read, write and just generally have a fun time learning..pretty much the same as kids who do not wear uniform.585937778[/snapback] Oh. Pretty much the same as kids who do not wear uniforms, is it? THEN WHY ARE THEY WEARING THEM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baseballpro9 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 And we are one step closer to uniforms.....good thing I am out of school. :D 585933634[/snapback] Amen to that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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