lara_rose Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Educational authority. A lack of uniforms is not going to prevent a teacher from telling her students when a test will end or when to hand in home work. I should know, i kinda went to uniform-less schools for 9 years. It worked out pretty swell, i'd say. There were no riots in the streets. Kids still got detentions if they disrupted class. Kids still failed if they didn't do well in their school work. 585939890[/snapback] Please read my post again. Where exactly did i mention that uniform wearing children performed better than their non-uniform wearing counterparts? I don't know why you are ranting on about the teachers not being able to contain her students if they are not wearing uniforms etc..that wasn't even my point. I am saying schools need a certain measure of authority and i gave my examples..you seem to think that 'schools were not developed to have 'authority' over children'..but it seems to be ok to have 'educational' authority..then my mistake..i should have been more specific..theres general authority and then there is 'eductional' authority. Silly me, i'll remember next time. In some cases it works for a reason. In other cases it doesn't. I did go to a school with a dress code for a little over 2 years, and one of the expectations was that boys were to have no facial hair. (Of course, this rule didn't apply to teachers, like a lot of the dress-code rules.) What possible logical purpose does that serve? There isn't one, it's just a stupid rule somebody made up. It applies in all kinds of other places, too, not just at school. But... school is the main subject, so w/e 585939890[/snapback] You're right, if rules are set for one then it should apply to all. That way nobody can argue. That would be prefect wouldn't it? But these are school children we are talking about..would it be ok for 8-9 yr old girls to attend school wearing full make-up same as their females teachers? I think not, why? The logic is there..seek it out. The employees of the school do. I know your teachers always used to say you've gotta do well at your band competition or on your standardised test or in your basketball game, but that's nonsense. Students are more like customers than anything. 585939890[/snapback] Ok in you're opinion..students are merely customers of the school and once they leave that will be it? pretty much the same a customer leaving a shop or something? So am i correct in assuming that you don't have ex pupils who claim to have been a Harvard graduate, a Yale graduate etc? Why would they? They don't represent the school right? Funny culture you have there..over here, people are proud to associate themselves with Oxford, Cambridge, Queens College etc...Students are proud to be associated with their schools, at least I am..and that makes me a tiny tiny representative of it...even after leaving. Uniform requirements in a lot of cases are a 'discipline, discipline, discipline' thing. Just like military academy. 585939890[/snapback] Discipline? In a school? Whats wrong with that? I think you will find the discipline in a military academy is very different to one exercised in a school though... Oh. Pretty much the same as kids who do not wear uniforms, is it? THEN WHY ARE THEY WEARING THEM. 585939890[/snapback] Why the hell not? It doesn't matter either way does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggie_dog Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 i think its a bad idea. school, inparticular public schools are for learning, not segregating each individual to their own religions. the point of school is to allow everyone to get an education and learn to socialize with different people from all walks of life. allowing this to happen will only create problems and outcasting themselves from their respective schools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aristotle-dude Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 (edited) What are you talking about? America and Canada have the two least-fascist education systems in the world. If you want to talk about conformity, look at Britain or any east-Asian country. 585937329[/snapback] Let's see in the US you have: - Truant officers stake out schools - Schools considering dress codes - zero tolerance of drugs (students suspended over aspirin or other over the counter drugs). - security guards with guns outside of schools - metal detectors - concerns over religious dress No, the US educational system is not fascist at all. :rolleyes: Don't lump Canada in the the US. We still have a "sane" educational system. Schools are "not" prisons here with police keeping student in them. Here in Canada, you are free to be "different" and we do not try to force anyone to "conform". I just want to add. I know that not everyone in America thinks that way. I'm trying to warn people in the US who are trying to get people to "conform" about the slippery slope they are on. Some of these people may have the best of intentions and might think this approach would minimize conflicts but the cost is too high. Intolerance and racism cannot be overcome by making everyone the same. We have to learn to tolerate and appreciate diversity. My country is not perfect but most of us recognize that we are either immigrants or descendants of immigrants. What this means is that Canada is not "one" culture but rather a rich tapestry of cultures interwoven yet still maintaining their own uniqueness. Edited May 19, 2005 by aristotle-dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raum Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Wearing a school uniform over here in UK is second nature. I certainly don't consider it any more fascist than say wearing a uniform to work. Its just the dress code and that is that.There has to be a measure of authority in schools and wearing the school uniform is just part and parcel of the whole caboodle. After all, if one started work at say..Mcdonalds (because the uniform is globally the same), one wouldn't question its dress code right? You'd just accept it because that is what is expected. I went to school with kids of many cultures/religions, muslims included and none of them have had issues with wearing the school uniform. Despite the opinions of some people on this thread, our schools do respect the individualism of students of certain cultures and will in most cases make allowances, ie allowing trousers to be worn by girls, the wearing of headscarves etc..i don't feel it is unreasonable to ask that anything else relating to religion and cultural pursuits be kept seperate from the school agenda. 585937671[/snapback] If I found parts of the dress code to be questionable to me, I would talkt o the manager about them. Same thing I did at my highschool. I thought reuqiring males to shave was ridiculous, so I fought it and got the rule changed. **** acceptance. :p I like my beards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 theres general authority and then there is 'eductional' authority. Silly me, i'll remember next time.585941480[/snapback] Good. Thanks in advance. That would be prefect wouldn't it? But these are school children we are talking about..would it be ok for 8-9 yr old girls to attend school wearing full make-up same as their females teachers? I think not, why? The logic is there..seek it out.585941480[/snapback] It is not logical for a 8- or 9-year-old girl to wear make-up because make-up is designed mainly to make women look younger. 8 or 9 is pretty good for youth. However, if you ask me, yes, it would be OK. Ok in you're opinion..students are merely customers of the school and once they leave that will be it? pretty much the same a customer leaving a shop or something? So am i correct in assuming that you don't have ex pupils who claim to have been a Harvard graduate, a Yale graduate etc? Why would they? They don't represent the school right? Funny culture you have there..over here, people are proud to associate themselves with Oxford, Cambridge, Queens College etc...Students are proud to be associated with their schools, at least I am..and that makes me a tiny tiny representative of it...even after leaving.585941480[/snapback] K. Some people think that way. If you want to, go for it. A lot of people like to pledge loyalty to countries too, and i think that's a pretty dumb-assed notion, so i guess maybe it's just me. Either way, the point was that there is a massive difference between schools and jobs. You can't point to a job and act like anything that goes on there is a justification for something that goes on in schools. They are not comparable. Discipline? In a school? Whats wrong with that? I think you will find the discipline in a military academy is very different to one exercised in a school though...585941480[/snapback] A school should expect students not to unnecessarily interfere with them doing their job, which is to teach kids. That is the only discipline a school should be involved in. Military academies, boot camps, prisons, &c., use uniforms to emphasise obedience and uniformity (which are types of discipline). That goes beyond preventing people from interfering with education. Why the hell not? It doesn't matter either way does it?585941480[/snapback] That's partially my point. If it doesn't matter either way, why are people going through all the trouble of supporting and instituting uniforms? You're sitting there supporting the idea of uniforms, but at the same time you're saying that the educational experience is exactly the same without them. Make up your mind. If there is not a benefit from wearing them, why do you support them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Let's see in the US you have:585941961[/snapback] I hope you're using 'you' in the general sense. 'I' don't have anything. - Truant officers stake out schools585941961[/snapback] http://www.police.brantford.on.ca/resource.html - Schools considering dress codes585941961[/snapback] http://www.topmarks.ca/school_uniforms_why_uniforms.html - zero tolerance of drugs (students suspended over aspirin or other over the counter drugs).585941961[/snapback] http://www.safehealthyschools.org/whatsnew...rotolerance.htm - security guards with guns outside of schools585941961[/snapback] http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...afia041019.html - concerns over religious dress585941961[/snapback] https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=308055 No, the Canadian educational system is not fascist at all. :rolleyes: Don't lump Canada in the the US. We still have a "sane" educational system. Schools are "not" prisons here with police keeping student in them.585941961[/snapback] Don't 'lump' some lame schools in high-violence, high-population areas of America 'in' with the 'rest' of the country. Schools are 'not' prisons in America, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted May 19, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 19, 2005 http://www.police.brantford.on.ca/resource.html 585942780[/snapback] It would seem to me to be one unarmed resource officer shared amongst 2 more schools as part of their community outreach program. They are not hired security guards. http://www.topmarks.ca/school_uniforms_why_uniforms.html 585942780[/snapback] Clearly they are in the business of selling uniforms. Many private schools do require them. http://www.safehealthyschools.org/whatsnew...rotolerance.htm 585942780[/snapback] Zero tolerance programs are employed in many parts of Canada as part of the trend that swept North America. http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/20...afia041019.html 585942780[/snapback] That was a private school. We were talking, I believe, about public school systems. https://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=308055 585942780[/snapback] Clearly most, if not all, religious dress is tolerated, there was some concern that this was a weapon. The courts in every principality in which a ban on kirpans have been challenged have all ruled in favour of religious freedom. No, the Canadian educational system is not fascist at all. :rolleyes:Don't 'lump' some lame schools in high-violence, high-population areas of America 'in' with the 'rest' of the country. Schools are 'not' prisons in America, either. 585942780[/snapback] Even in Canada's largest city, within the downtown core, students are free to come and go as they please. There are no metal detectors or security guards. You might get in trouble for cutting classes without a note but it is easy enough to go play video games during your study hall period if you feel so included. Just make it back before your next period (especially if that teacher is the type to take attendance). Things are pretty laid back here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lara_rose Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Good. Thanks in advance. 585942772[/snapback] :rolleyes: It is not logical for a 8- or 9-year-old girl to wear make-up because make-up is designed mainly to make women look younger. 8 or 9 is pretty good for youth. However, if you ask me, yes, it would be OK. 585942772[/snapback] :rolleyes: Either way, the point was that there is a massive difference between schools and jobs. You can't point to a job and act like anything that goes on there is a justification for something that goes on in schools. They are not comparable. 585942772[/snapback] Ok, in no way was i making comparisons between work and school. Anyone with an ounce of brain know there are massive differences. My reference to Mcdonalds was merely an example of how one would not question the authority to wearing the uniform, as it is already expected. Similarly, one would not question the authority ( sorry 'educational' authority) of the school if a dres code is in effect on first attendance. A school should expect students not to unnecessarily interfere with them doing their job, which is to teach kids. That is the only discipline a school should be involved in. Military academies, boot camps, prisons, &c., use uniforms to emphasise obedience and uniformity (which are types of discipline). That goes beyond preventing people from interfering with education. 585942772[/snapback] I don't understand your comment that 'A school should expect students not to unnecessarily interfere with them doing their job, which is to teach kids'. How do you mean by 'interfer'? And apart from the discipline expected in schools, did i mention any other sort? oh maybe..i needed to differentiate between 'academia' discipline to another type ? That's partially my point. If it doesn't matter either way, why are people going through all the trouble of supporting and instituting uniforms? You're sitting there supporting the idea of uniforms, but at the same time you're saying that the educational experience is exactly the same without them. Make up your mind. If there is not a benefit from wearing them, why do you support them? 585942772[/snapback] The academic ability of school children was never the issue here. It doesn't matter either way whether my kids go to school in jeans and t-shirts or wearing their uniforms. I support uniforms because i respect the 'educational' authority of the school they attend. It is expected and unless the uniform hindered my childrens ability to learn for whatever reason i have no problems with it. However, if you want reasons, your link http://www.topmarks.ca/school_uniforms_why_uniforms.html sums up nicely the principles behind my support of school uniforms, especially points 5, 6 and 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted May 19, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 19, 2005 The academic ability of school children was never the issue here. It doesn't matter either way whether my kids go to school in jeans and t-shirts or wearing their uniforms. I support uniforms because i respect the 'educational' authority of the school they attend. It is expected and unless the uniform hindered my childrens ability to learn for whatever reason i have no problems with it. However, if you want reasons, your link http://www.topmarks.ca/school_uniforms_why_uniforms.html sums up nicely the principles behind my support of school uniforms, especially points 5, 6 and 7. 585943559[/snapback] 5. Uniforms clearly reduce peer pressure - especially as there is no decision-making necessary in regards to the "What do I wear to school?" syndrome (making life for the parents much easier as well);6. Uniforms help administrators identify possible intruders to the school; 7. Uniforms are less costly than name brand fashions, which are traditionally what the students would want to wear; As I said earlier, if someone wants to show wealth then they wear Prada shoes and use a diamond-studded hair clip. There are school uniforms and there are brand-name school uniforms. There is one specific store in Toronto where all the chi-chi parents shop for the "right" school uniforms. So I would not exclusively say that uniforms are less expensive than brand name fashions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 It would seem to me to be one unarmed resource officer shared amongst 2 more schools as part of their community outreach program. They are not hired security guards.585943024[/snapback] That was the truancy-officer one, not the security-guard one. Clearly they are in the business of selling uniforms. Many private schools do require them.585943024[/snapback] I thought it was more common in Quebec (for public schools), but i guess i can't find a link, so whatever. Either way, uniforms are extremely rare in American public schools. :shrug: That was a private school. We were talking, I believe, about public school systems.585943024[/snapback] I guess so. Even in Canada's largest city, within the downtown core, students are free to come and go as they please. There are no metal detectors or security guards. You might get in trouble for cutting classes without a note but it is easy enough to go play video games during your study hall period if you feel so included. Just make it back before your next period (especially if that teacher is the type to take attendance). Things are pretty laid back here. 585943024[/snapback] Off the top of my head, i have been in at least eleven American high schools, including the ones in the biggest cities in the state that i live in and the 'alternative' schools for kids who are too problematic to remain in the regular ones. I have never once seen a metal detector. I have never seen a security guard. I have never seen a school that required uniforms. (The Catholic school i went to for a few years had a dress code, but it was just tuck-your-shirt-in/wear-a-belt/no-sneakers kind of stuff, not an actual uniform.) I have never seen a school that had an issue with religious articles (except, i guess, the Catholic school, but that doesn't really count). Most of the things that American schools have done to become more strict in the past few years have followed a string of highly publicised school shootings (and other violent stuff). You don't hear so much about that in Canada. Never the less, Canada has followed America on some stuff. In Winnipeg (and other cities, i'm sure) they banned book bags from class rooms, just like they did in a lot of schools in America. A lot of schools have become less lenient regarding open-campus policies, but whatever. (The high school i went to was open-campus for everybody every day until like 3 or 4 years ago, when they closed it for 'security' reasons. Even so, most people could still come and go as they liked, as long as they weren't doing anything too mischievous. The teachers didn't really care.) I have heard of schools in places like New York and Chicago that have metal detectors and security guards. Those are New York and Chicago. Not exactly the safest places in the world, especially considering the mentality of a lot of Americans. (Michael Moore is a joke, but he highlighted it in Bowling for Columbine -- the fact that Canadians have just as many guns as Americans, but there's a lot less shooting people. It's because Americans are different somehow.) It is very rare to see uniforms in American public schools, and metal detectors and security guards are only used in big cities or cities with a past history of crime. I can play the idiot game too. Ok, in no way was i making comparisons between work and school. Anyone with an ounce of brain know there are massive differences. My reference to Mcdonalds was merely an example of how one would not question the authority to wearing the uniform, as it is already expected. Similarly, one would not question the authority ( sorry 'educational' authority) of the school if a dres code is in effect on first attendance.585943559[/snapback] :rolleyes: I don't understand your comment that 'A school should expect students not to unnecessarily interfere with them doing their job, which is to teach kids'. How do you mean by 'interfer'? And apart from the discipline expected in schools, did i mention any other sort? oh maybe..i needed to differentiate between 'academia' discipline to another type ?585943559[/snapback] :rolleyes: The academic ability of school children was never the issue here. It doesn't matter either way whether my kids go to school in jeans and t-shirts or wearing their uniforms. I support uniforms because i respect the 'educational' authority of the school they attend. It is expected and unless the uniform hindered my childrens ability to learn for whatever reason i have no problems with it. However, if you want reasons, your link http://www.topmarks.ca/school_uniforms_why_uniforms.html sums up nicely the principles behind my support of school uniforms, especially points 5, 6 and 7.585943559[/snapback] :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lara_rose Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 I can play the idiot game too.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: 585944570[/snapback] Playing the idiot game? err ok..not really my style, but you go ahead and have fun. As I said earlier, if someone wants to show wealth then they wear Prada shoes and use a diamond-studded hair clip.There are school uniforms and there are brand-name school uniforms.? There is one specific store in Toronto where all the chi-chi parents shop for the "right" school uniforms.? So I would not exclusively say that uniforms are less expensive than brand name fashions. 585943612[/snapback] I see..its pretty much the same over here too. But as long as the colours are right, nobody really cares where the uniforms were purchased or how much they cost. But i do have to say based on my experience, uniforms are cheaper to buy as opposed to everyday clothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaLiVa Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Arggghhh! Quote Mania!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dreamz Veteran Posted May 20, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 20, 2005 i went to a private, international high school in thailand, and we originally had a dress code. apparently, diversity and free expression was too much of a problem, so the administration decided we needed uniforms. many were skeptical, since it was rumored that one of the parents on the school board (the exec board or something or other) was actually the head of the company responsible for providing the uniforms. smells fishy. in any case, forcing children into conformism is sending a clear message against diversity and expression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 i remember being against school uniforms when I was in high school. We didn't have them, but they were creeping through the elementary and middle schools at the time. Now I'm friends with some teachers who teach in high schools and middle schools and they think that the uniform system is a god sent. I also have friends with kids in middle school who approve and like the uniform policy, even if their kids hate it. Uniforms make it easier for them to buy school cloths and not have to put up with their kids whining about needing to have the more expensive "cool" cloths to be accepted. I remember spending buko bucks on pairs of JNCO jeans just so I could feel "cool." I hope my kids don't bend to that peer pressure fitting in crap like I did. As far as religious dress goes... I voted yes to "Religious dress in school being a good idea" because I was originally assuming that this had nothing to do with school uniform dress policies. If there is no uniform policy at the school, then sure: why not? More power to you for standing up for what you believe in. But now that I've thought about it, if the school has an established uniform policy then I think all the students should have to follow that policy, period. If your religion dictates your dress to be otherwise, then you need to find a private school for your children, or move to a region of the US that doesn't have this problem. You have a choice as to where you want to live in this country. Just because there is religious freedom (to some extent) does not mean that the state has to bend to your every religious whim when it comes to state sponsored services like public schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Uniforms make it easier for them to buy school cloths and not have to put up with their kids whining about needing to have the more expensive "cool" cloths to be accepted. I remember spending buko bucks on pairs of JNCO jeans just so I could feel "cool." I hope my kids don't bend to that peer pressure fitting in crap like I did.585948126[/snapback] So basically you think it's OK to throw individualism and non-discrimination out the window in favour of an it's-for-your-own-good mentality that really only benefits a few poor kids and their parents? If you ask me, i think poor people are the ones who should have to move to another part of the country if they don't like it, not religious people. It's not the duty of the government to make everybody else suffer for the benefit of the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted May 20, 2005 Veteran Share Posted May 20, 2005 Here's my take on designer clothes. A parent has a duty to clothe their child. If the child wants to buy a pair of designed jeans rather than the standard jeans that the parent would normally buy then the child should be expected to pay the difference using babysitting money or whatnot. My own person take of designer clothes is that name brand clothing tends to last longer than the crap you could buy at Walmart so, as long as I can buy them on sale or from a discount outlet then I intend to buy my child name-brand clothing because in the long run it is at least as good a value. There is no way I would ever clothe my child in Walmart clothing. You can't find anything made of cotton in the whole store. It's just cheap, cheap, cheap and it doesn't last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lav-chan Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Wal-Mart is lame-o, but you can still look good and have clothing that lasts for cheap. I don't know if they have Target in Canada, but they sell jeans for like $17 there. Look just as good and last just as long as any $80 pair of Silvers do. And, i mean, the point is moot, anyway. Kids are going to want what's fashionable whether they're in school or not. They may look the same as everyone else during school hours, but after school, at week ends, and during holidays and vacations, they're still going to be bugging their parents for those Silver jeans and American Eagle sweaters. It's not like kids are going to be like, oh, well, i look good at school, so i guess it's OK for me to wear my rags everywhere else! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaLiVa Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 in any case, forcing children into conformism is sending a clear message against diversity and expression. 585948059[/snapback] Agreed fullheartedly. My school has uniform based upon our "culture", it's not exactly the hardest thing to wear, (It's basically a T Shirt and long trousers) but there's additional "rules" like we must wear white socks, must not wear coloured bras (For women), must not have earrings/nose rings/ anything involving piercing a part of your body (Both men and women), scalf for women and a traditional "topi" or hat for men. Now I dont want to sound complainy, but the traditional hat isn't exactly the most practical thing to wear. I dislike piercings and I always wear white socks. However the hat just has to go. I am a prefect and I make myself revolt against the restrictive rules for uniform. We have an average of 32 Degrees Celcius everyday and at the end of the day, if we wear the hat - Our hair will stink and crap loads of dandruff will fall out. Not to mention the creaseline and never ending sweat. It's very much related to Islam, however we should not be forced to wear such things. Give us an oppurtunity to express our opinion on the matter. These rules are the main reason why the students are doing it anyway in my opinion. I've seen an increasing number of girls having pierced nose and recently a boy and girl with pierced tongues. They reinforce these laws and discipline teachers are a pain in the ass. What to do though? It's school afterall... And at the end of the day, the uniform is part of the schools identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts