rumbleph1$h Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Fine read.... worthy of its own thread. Let the flaming begin hippies. The Politics of American Wars How fascists became the "victims" in the current war. by Victor Davis Hanson For all the talk of imperial America, and our frequent ?police actions,? we are hardly militarists. Protected by two-oceans, and founded on the principles of non-interference in Europe?s bloody internecine wars, the United States has always been rightly circumspect about going to war abroad. The American people are highly individualistic, skeptical of war?s utility, and traditionally distrustful of government ? and wary of the need of their sacrifice for supposed global agendas. So we go to war reluctantly. And being human, our support for war hinges on it being short and economical, and waged for professed idealistic principles. Wars that drag on past three years ? from the Civil War to Vietnam ? can often lead to demonstrations and popular disdain. By the same token, some politics are more compatible with the American perception of the need to fight. It was not only Lincoln?s gifted rhetoric that got the Union through Cold Harbor and the Wilderness, but after the war?s initial months of hard fighting, his reinvention of the North?s very aims, from a utilitarian struggle to restore the United States to a moral crusade to end slavery and the power of the plantationists for good. In that effort, he was willing to suspend habeas corpus, sidestep the Congress, and govern large chunks of the border-states through martial law. Woodrow Wilson intervened liberally in Central America. He led us to war against right-wing Prussian militarism. His ?too proud to fight? slogan in no time was scrapped for the Fourteen Points, a utopian blueprint for the nations of the world, handed down by a former professor from his high and moralistic Olympus. Few worried that Franklin Delano Roosevelt not only waged a savage global struggle against Italian, German, and Japanese fascism, but in the process did some pretty unsavory and markedly illiberal things at home. It was no right-wing nut who locked up Japanese-Americans without regard for habeas corpus or ordered German agents to be shot as terrorists. To end the dictatorial and genocidal plans of Slobodan Milosevic, liberal Bill Clinton was willing to bomb downtown Belgrade, commit American forces to a major campaign without U.S. Senate approval and bypass the United Nations altogether. Few accused him of fighting an illegal war, contravening U.N. protocols, or cowardly dropping bombs on civilians. In all these cases, public opposition was pretty much muted, despite the horrendous casualties involved in some of these past conflicts. Some general principles, then, can guide us in determining American reactions to war, and they transcend even the notion of comparative sacrifice and cost. Progressives, like a Wilson or Clinton, who, we are assured, hate war, can intervene far more easily, and are more likely to receive a pass from a hypercritical elite media. In the end, they always seem forced to fight by circumstances, since their very liberal natures are supposed to abhor optional conflicts. FDR?s wartime criminal justice apparatus trumped anything that John Ashcroft could imagine, but it has remained relatively unexamined even to this day: liberals must have had very good reasons to put non-white people in camps, so contrary to their innate notions of social justice. Second, the United States seems to be more united against right-wing fascism than left-wing totalitarianism, perhaps because our elites in academia, journalism, and politics feel authoritarian dictators from the right lack the veneer of egalitarian empathy for the poor. In any case, we are more prone even today to assume the 6-8 million Hitler slaughtered puts him in a category far worse than Stalin or Mao, despite the fact that the two combined did away with ten times Hitler?s tally. During World War II, here at home we experienced nothing like the Rosenbergs or an Alger Hiss working for the Axis, even though Soviet-inspired global communism would end up liquidating 80 million in Russia and China alone. Fighting North Korea or North Vietnam ? or even waging the Cold War ? was a far more difficult enterprise than opposing the Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo. Our successes were often due to the efforts of strong anti-communist democrats like Harry Truman who could assure our influential universities, media, politicians, writers, actors, and foundations of the real danger, and the fact that the president had little choice but to go to war. In this context, many had some apprehensions about the present so-called war on terror. Ostensibly, the Islamicists who had pulled off September 11 largely fit past definitions of fascism and so should have galvanized universal traditional American furor. The tribal followers of bin Laden advocated a return to a mythical age of ideological purity uncorrupted by modernism, democracy, or pluralism. Islamicism certainly held no tolerance for other religions, much less any who were not extreme Muslims. Sexism and racism ? remember bin Laden?s taunts about Africans, ongoing slavery in the Sudan, and the genocide of blacks in Darfur ? were an integral part of radical Islamicist doctrine. Al-Qaeda was not so much chauvinistic as misogynistic. Substitute bin Laden?s evocation of ?believer? for the old ?Volk,? and the crackpot rants about world domination, purity, and the anti-Semitic slurs of ?apes and pigs? fall into the old fascist slots. It is no accident that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf are still popular sellers among zealots in some capitals of the Arab world. Was our war on terror, then, going to be morally clear to even the most progressive utopian, since our enemies lacked liberal pretensions and the charisma of a Stalin, Ho, Che, or Fidel that so often duped the gullible? Hardly. Two factors explain the current growing hysteria over Iraq, and they transcend the complex nature of the war and even the depressing media reports from the battlefield. First is the strange doctrine of multiculturalism that has become one of our most dominant boutique ideologies of the last few decades, as the United States experienced unleveled prosperity, leisure ? and guilt. All cultures are of equal merit; failure and poverty abroad are never due to indigenous pathology but rather Western colonialism, racism, Christianity, and gender bias. The Other is never to be judged by our own ?biased? standards of jurisprudence and ?constructed? bourgeoisie notions of humanity; those poorer, darker, non-Christian, and non-English-speaking are to be collectively grouped as victims, deserving condescension, moral latitude, and some sort of reparations or down right cash grants. Senator Patti Murray gave us the soccer-mom version of this pathology when she once talked of the need to rival bin Laden?s supposed humanitarian projects in Afghanistan, while Senator Durbin assures us from a private email that poor suspects in Cuba (no longer terrorists who plot to butcher more thousands) suffer the similar fate of Hitler?s victims. As September 11 faded in our collective memory, Muslim extremists were insidiously but systematically reinvented in our elite presentations as near underprivileged victims, and themselves often adept critics of purported rapacious Western consumerism, oil profiteering, heavy-handed militarism, and spiritual desolation. Extremists that otherwise would be properly seen in the fascistic mold were instead given a weird pass for their quite public and abhorrent hatred of non-believers and homosexuals, and Neanderthal views of women. Beheadings, murder of Christians, suicide bombing of children, systematic torture ? all this and more paled in comparison to hot and cold temperatures in American jails on Cuba. Suddenly despite our enemies? long record of murdering and carnage, we were in a war not with fascism of the old stamp, but with those who were historical victims of the United States. Thus problems arose of marshalling American public opinion against the supposedly weaker that posited legitimate grievances against Western hegemons. It was no surprise that Sen. Durbin?s infantile rantings would be showcased on al-Jazeera. When Western liberals today talk of a mythical period in the days after 9-11 of ?unity? and ?European solidarity? what they really remember is a Golden Age of Victimhood, or about four weeks before the strikes against the Taliban commenced. Then for a precious moment at last the United States was a real victim, apparently weak and vulnerable, and suffering cosmic injustice from a suddenly empowered Other. Oh, to return to the days before Iraq and Afghanistan, when we were hurt, introspective, and pitied, but had not yet ?lashed out.? If one examines the infomercials of a bin Laden or Dr. Zawahiri, or the terrorist communiqu?s sent to the Westernized media, they are almost all rehashes of the Michael Moore left, from ?Bush lied? to ?Halliburton? to ?genocide? and ?Gulag.? This now famous ?Unholy Alliance? of radical anti-American and reactionary jihadist is really a two-way street: Islamicists mimic the old leftist critique of the United States, and the Western Left hopes that they in turn can at least tone down their rhetoric about knocking walls over gays or sending all women into burqa seclusion?at least long enough to pose as something like disposed Palestinians minus the Hamas bombs laced with feces, rat poison, and nails. The second problem was not only were we no longer clearly fighting a right-wing extremist ideology, but Texan, twangy, and conservative President Bush was hard to repackage into the reluctant liberal warrior in the image of Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Harry Truman, or Bill Clinton. So there was never much leeway for error in this war. We are not talking in this postmodern era in terms of a past Democratic president invading Latin America, interring citizens in high-plains camps, hanging terrorist suspects, nuking cities, or bombing pharmaceutical factories in Africa, but, at least from the weird present hysteria, something apparently far worse ? like supposedly flushing a Koran at Guantanamo. In a leisured and liberal society, it is very difficult in general for a conservative to wage war, because the natural suspicion arises that his tragic view of human nature and his belief in the occasional utility of force, makes him seem to enjoy the enterprise far more than a lip-biting progressive, who may in fact order far more destruction. George Bush Sr. barely pulled off freeing Kuwait, but only because he fought on the ground for only 4 days, used the aegis of the U.N., pulled back on televised images of the so-called ?Highway of Death,? and was able to avoid going to Baghdad and dealing with a murdering despot still in power. In contrast, once the metamorphosis of the Islamicists from fascists to victimized critics of the West was well underway, and once a suspect conservative like George Bush eschewed the old League of Nations utopianism, the fireside chat, or the ?I feel your pain? persona of traditional Democratic war leaders, I feared we were in real trouble finishing this war. Contrary to all recent popular wisdom, the war in Iraq is not a disaster, but nearing success. It has been costly and at times tragic, but a democracy is in place, accords are being hammered out with Sunni rejectionists, and the democratic reformist mindset is pulsating into Lebanon, Egypt, and the Gulf. This has only been possible because of the courage and efficacy of a much maligned military who, for the lapses of a small minority, has been compared to Stalin and Hitler at Guantanamo Bay and at Abu Ghraib. If President Bush were a liberal Democrat, if he were bombing a white Christian, politically clumsy fascist in the heart of Europe, if al Qaeda and its Islamicist adherents were properly seen as 8th-century tormenters of humanists, women, homosexuals, non-Arabs and non-Wahhabi believers, and if Iraq had become completely somnolent with the toppling of Saddam?s statue, then the American people would have remained behind the effort to dismantle Islamic fundamentalism and create the foundations to ensure its permanent demise. But once the suicide murdering and bombing from Iraq began to dominate the news, then this administration, for historical reasons largely beyond its own control, had a very small reservoir of good will. Quite literally, the Islamicists proved to be more adept in the public relations of winning liberal exemption from criticism than did the administration itself, as one nude Iraqi on film or a crumpled Koran was always deemed far worse than daily beheadings and executions. Indeed, the terrorists were able to morph into downtrodden victims of a bullying, imperialistic America faster than George Bush was able to appear a reluctant progressive warrior at war with the Dark-Age values of fascism. And once that transformation was established, we were into a dangerous cycle of a conservative, tough-talking president intervening abroad to thwart the poorer of the Third World ? something that has never been an easy thing in recent American history, but now in our own age has become a propagandist?s dream come true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfalcon Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 An excellent read. Source Link: http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson062405.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaulz Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Let the flaming begin hippies LMAO, you go, ph1sh... :) I'll read and comment later, just wanna see the crowds of anti-american/anti-bush/tree-hugger/granola babies/etc come add their $.02. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axon Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Once again the slanderish use of the word 'liberal'. To me that discredits the article. Why not just call Bill Clinton a Democrat :rolleyes: . Here's a question thats been bothering me for quite some time. If American's dislike war so much, why the hell aren't you out in the streets protesting. With the War in Iraq at its lowest public approval ever, why isn't there mass protest like there was with the war in Vietnam? -Ax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digipoi Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Once again the slanderish use of the word 'liberal'. To me that discredits the article. Why not just call Bill Clinton a Democrat :rolleyes: .Here's a question thats been bothering me for quite some time. If American's dislike war so much, why the hell aren't you out in the streets protesting. With the War in Iraq at its lowest public approval ever, why isn't there mass protest like there was with the war in Vietnam? -Ax 586136657[/snapback] Why the need to label yourself Liberal? Theres no protests in America because Qualudes are no longer in production silly :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxpor Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 The author seems to have forgotten about Ronald Regan and Grenada :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rumbleph1$h Posted June 29, 2005 Author Share Posted June 29, 2005 Once again the slanderish use of the word 'liberal'. To me that discredits the article. Why not just call Bill Clinton a Democrat :rolleyes: .Here's a question thats been bothering me for quite some time. If American's dislike war so much, why the hell aren't you out in the streets protesting. With the War in Iraq at its lowest public approval ever, why isn't there mass protest like there was with the war in Vietnam? -Ax 586136657[/snapback] Semantics... for whatever reason you?re having a hard time understanding that the two terms are synonymous in American politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Once again the slanderish use of the word 'liberal'. To me that discredits the article. Why not just call Bill Clinton a Democrat :rolleyes: . 586136657[/snapback] Yep. With the word included, it's just an article full of whining. Oh, and this jem: if al Qaeda and its Islamicist adherents were properly seen as 8th-century tormenters of humanists, women, homosexuals, non-Arabs and non-Wahhabi believers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaulz Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 I've explained this before... the word "liberal" has become an insult because liberals have made it so. You've got nobody to blame but yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axon Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Semantics... for whatever reason you?re having a hard time understanding that the two terms are synonymous in American politics. 586137392[/snapback] I know:pinch:h:. It just always seems like its being used as an insult, or that it makes the guy radioactive. -Ax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyClaw Veteran Posted June 29, 2005 Veteran Share Posted June 29, 2005 I've explained this before... the word "liberal" has become an insult because liberals have made it so. You've got nobody to blame but yourselves. 586137422[/snapback] no its become an insult because of propaganda being fed to the gullible public. smaulz, i believe in peace and happieness, so in effect if you insinuate that being a liberal is a bad thing, then is believing in peace and good morals a bad thing? it certainly sounds like that. i am not ashamed of being a liberal, im proud of it. rumbleph1sh, im not going to even speak to you, ive been in too many arguments with you since you are closed minded to the truth, im just going to roll my eyes and chuckle. when this country is truely in trouble, remember the people that tried to warn you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digipoi Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 when this country is truely in trouble, remember the people that tried to warn you. 586138299[/snapback] Doom!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Once again the slanderish use of the word 'liberal'. To me that discredits the article. Why not just call Bill Clinton a Democrat :rolleyes: .Here's a question thats been bothering me for quite some time. If American's dislike war so much, why the hell aren't you out in the streets protesting. With the War in Iraq at its lowest public approval ever, why isn't there mass protest like there was with the war in Vietnam? -Ax 586136657[/snapback] Why the need to label yourself Liberal? Theres no protests in America because Qualudes are no longer in production silly :laugh: 586136831[/snapback] No protests? Visit Seattle and you will see protests, people here protest even if a dog pooped in a public park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axon Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 No protests? Visit Seattle and you will see protests, people here protest even if a dog pooped in a public park. 586138397[/snapback] Thats great to hear!! I just wish there was more! Plenty more! As I said, in the 70's protest was huge over the Vietnam war, and I would think a recreation of that would send a strong message to Bush, his administration, and rebuplicans/democrats who supported his pre-war arguments. -Ax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyClaw Veteran Posted June 29, 2005 Veteran Share Posted June 29, 2005 Doom!!! 586138351[/snapback] lol, even if that was an insult, just lol. (i think of a fedex commercial, heh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Thats great to hear!!I just wish there was more! Plenty more! As I said, in the 70's protest was huge over the Vietnam war, and I would think a recreation of that would send a strong message to Bush, his administration, and rebuplicans/democrats who supported his pre-war arguments. -Ax 586138470[/snapback] Oh it gets even better, they did "a recreation of the battle of Fallujah" right in front of a Starbucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septimius Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 rumbleph1sh, im not going to even speak to you, ive been in too many arguments with you since you are closed minded to the truth, im just going to roll my eyes and chuckle. when this country is truely in trouble, remember the people that tried to warn you. 586138299[/snapback] Sorry to bring this up, but isn't the term "closed minded" great? Its the most popular retort these days for anyone who is demeed as "unaccepting" of certain ideas/practices. What's truly "close minded" is our inability to understand that there are always two equally valid sides to an issue. The truth does not soley lie with one ideology or another, but with a proper understanding of each, and an educated conclusion. By labeling someone as that, you have just sentenced yourself to the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaulz Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 no its become an insult because of propaganda being fed to the gullible public. smaulz, i believe in peace and happieness, so in effect if you insinuate that being a liberal is a bad thing, then is believing in peace and good morals a bad thing? it certainly sounds like that. 586138299[/snapback] LOL it's rather humorous hearing a liberal preach about good morals... thanks. And believe me, it's not me that's being fed propaganda, I get my news and opinions from about thirty different sources, some liberal, some conservative, some libertarian, etc., but see, I have a brain, and that allows me to make my own, informed, educated opinion. Unlike 80% of liberals who get their opinion spoon-fed to them by the likes of Michael Moore, Ted *hic* Kennedy, Al Franken, Kerry, etc. etc. Listen, I don't mind if you don't agree with my views, very few actually do. But at least have the intelligence to carry your OWN opinion, not someone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyClaw Veteran Posted June 29, 2005 Veteran Share Posted June 29, 2005 i do carry my own opinion, not others. my opinions arent spoon fed to me by the likes of people like that, its what i believe myself, its just nice to have smart people back me up. and whats funny is to hear conservatives preach good morals when they constantly say one thing and do another. Seperation of church in state while saying its against the will of God to allow gays to marry, saying they are pro life yet agree with the death penalty and lie to the people to start illegal wars, you cant have it both ways so i wish you guys would make up your mind. Dont question my intelligence just because i share the opinions of smart induviduals, its not my fault i dont blindly follow an idiot ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septimius Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 and whats funny is to hear conservatives preach good morals when they constantly say one thing and do another. 586138911[/snapback] Out of curiosity, could you provide some examples? I'm just curious to know how conservatives are more hypocritical than the rest of the world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smaulz Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 i do carry my own opinion, not others.? my opinions arent spoon fed to me by the likes of people like that, its what i believe myself, its just nice to have smart people back me up.? and whats funny is to hear conservatives preach good morals when they constantly say one thing and do another.? Seperation of church in state while saying its against the will of God to allow gays to marry, saying they are pro life yet agree with the death penalty and lie to the people to start illegal wars, you cant have it both ways so i wish you guys would make up your mind.? Dont question my intelligence just because i share the opinions of smart induviduals, its not my fault i dont blindly follow an id;)t ;) 586138911[/snapback] First of all, to call someone like Michael Moore "smart" speaks volumes.... Secondly, everything you said in your second paragraph is ALL 100% liberal party-line. Seperation of Church and State? Do you even know where that came from? Let me give you a hint, it's NOT in the Constitution. (I'll give you a chance to research the true origins of that particular statement.) Equating the death penalty to abortion? Ridiculous, doesn't even deserve further discussion. And boy oh boy, you liberals LOVE to jump on the whole "Bush lied" bandwagon. That one's been beaten to death on these forums, but I'll say one thing. If you've seen the sun shine, seen the effects of that sun shining, and had 100 other people tell you the sun shines, wouldn't it be pretty safe for you to state that, in fact, the sun does shine? And what about your golden boys; Moore, Kerry, Kennedy, etc. etc., have any of them ever been caught in a lie? Hmmm... typical liberal double-standard? You may want to rethink those "smart induviduals" with whom you're sharing opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digipoi Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 lol, even if that was an insult, just lol. (i think of a fedex commercial, heh) 586138502[/snapback] It was the only thing I could think of when I read that last sentence. heh. not intended for insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 First of all, to call someone like Michael Moore "smart" speaks volumes.... Secondly, everything you said in your second paragraph is ALL 100% liberal party-line. Seperation of Church and State? Do you even know where that came from? Let me give you a hint, it's NOT in the Constitution. (I'll give you a chance to research the true origins of that particular statement.) Equating the death penalty to abortion? Ridiculous, doesn't even deserve further discussion. And boy oh boy, you liberals LOVE to jump on the whole "Bush lied" bandwagon. That one's been beaten to death on these forums, but I'll say one thing. If you've seen the sun shine, seen the effects of that sun shining, and had 100 other people tell you the sun shines, wouldn't it be pretty safe for you to state that, in fact, the sun does shine? And what about your golden boys; Moore, Kerry, Kennedy, etc. etc., have any of them ever been caught in a lie? Hmmm... typical liberal double-standard? You may want to rethink those "smart induviduals" with whom you're sharing opinions. 586139148[/snapback] i dont know what was a better read, your comment or the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcom826 Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Once again the slanderish use of the word 'liberal'. To me that discredits the article. Why not just call Bill Clinton a Democrat :rolleyes: .Here's a question thats been bothering me for quite some time. If American's dislike war so much, why the hell aren't you out in the streets protesting. With the War in Iraq at its lowest public approval ever, why isn't there mass protest like there was with the war in Vietnam? -Ax 586136657[/snapback] Hold on a minute, conservative is used as slander every day here. Because it doesn't have the same level of disapproval, casualties, or conscription as Vietnam. There's a HUGE difference between the two. Not even remotely comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azadre Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 First of all, to call someone like Michael Moore "smart" speaks volumes.... Secondly, everything you said in your second paragraph is ALL 100% liberal party-line. Seperation of Church and State? Do you even know where that came from? Let me give you a hint, it's NOT in the Constitution. (I'll give you a chance to research the true origins of that particular statement.) Equating the death penalty to abortion? Ridiculous, doesn't even deserve further discussion. And boy oh boy, you liberals LOVE to jump on the whole "Bush lied" bandwagon. That one's been beaten to death on these forums, but I'll say one thing. If you've seen the sun shine, seen the effects of that sun shining, and had 100 other people tell you the sun shines, wouldn't it be pretty safe for you to state that, in fact, the sun does shine? And what about your golden boys; Moore, Kerry, Kennedy, etc. etc., have any of them ever been caught in a lie? Hmmm... typical liberal double-standard? You may want to rethink those "smart induviduals" with whom you're sharing opinions. 586139148[/snapback] The smartest ones are not involved in politics. I would like to know of the golden boys of the conservatives? Rush? Hannity? O'Reilly? Newt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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