raid517 Posted July 23, 2005 Author Share Posted July 23, 2005 (edited) If they can proove the Holy Books, The Quran or The Bible wrong, i will believe science. Show me the slighest Error in either one of these books about the existence of God. And believe me, MANY have tried to spoil the Quran and none of them failed. No explanation of the well in Medina I dont know if you people know about all this religious stuff. Im sorry I cant back up my stuff with Christian Links as I am muslims so I'll urge you to check out these links. You are right of course, in that I am not able to argue with this kind of reasoning at all. Particularly since you have opted to simply ignore everything that has been said so far. If you really wanted me to test where the rock from your well came from, get me a sample and we will soon resolve it. The same applies to your water - although I would suspect that the answer is that it comes from an underground lake - as do many such wells. I have personally seen many clouds, some looked like pigs, others looked like superman, others looked like flying cars - but I simply attributed these to my imagination. I certainly did not form a religion based on my belief that floating pigs or superman, or the Acme flying car company were trying to tell me anything significant or particularly profound about the nature of the world or about the Univerese in which I live. GJ Edited July 23, 2005 by raid517 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hAsin Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 The Q'uran told about Supernovas in stars, the expansion of the Universe, hell even that when you breathe out, your breathing out Carbon Dioxide. And its not just the ocean that formed the Arabic writing. Theres virtually hundreds of images (if you search). and YES, they HAVE TRIED to see where the well was getting its water supply from, they pumped everything out, and it started to fill up automatically from the bottom up check the link i gave you. The Rock, its not from the Well, its in the K'Abba itself and they have sampled it and it cant be found on Earth. I wouldnt just tell you lies :| And no one bases a religion over cloud formation or trees forming arabic verses and trees in the shape of a man praying *which all I have seen*. Those are just some phenomenal things that just adds to the already HUGE belief in God millions and millions of us have. WTF Acme car company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raid517 Posted July 24, 2005 Author Share Posted July 24, 2005 (edited) The Qu'ran told about Supernovas in stars, the expansion of the Universe, hell even that when you breathe out, your breathing out Carbon Dioxide. And its not just the ocean that formed the Arabic writing. Theres virtually hundreds of images (if you search). and YES, they HAVE TRIED to see where the well was getting its water supply from, they pumped everything out, and it started to fill up automatically from the bottom up check the link i gave you.The Rock, its not from the Well, its in the K'Abba itself and they have sampled it and it cant be found on Earth. I wouldn't just tell you lies And no one bases a religion over cloud formation or trees forming Arabic verses and trees in the shape of a man praying *which all I have seen*. Those are just some phenomenal things that just adds to the already HUGE belief in God millions and millions of us have. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/aviji...ce_mirackes.htm http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/avijit/Quran_miracle.htm http://www.ymofmd.com/books/tbqs/ I did try to pick a variety of sources for you, from a wide range of authors from different backgrounds - so that I didn't at least sound as though I were somehow prejudice. Or you could try any one of a million other resources that exist, which pretty much conclusively debunk the 'scientific' claims made for the Qu'ran. Islam it seems is much like Christianity, in that it has found it increasingly difficult to sustain itself in light of many of the discoveries made by science - which often contradict directly a great many of the assertions made within these religious texts. So rather than resist that which it has become clear is undeniably true - they have sought to find scientific meaning in their texts in order to give them an added sense of validity and plausibility, particularly among those who have little or no real understanding of science. Among the gullible and the uniformed, if they are told that something is scientific, for a great many people - since science appears to have a factual and plausible air to it - they often may feel they have no real option but to believe it. The problem with these texts - and the so called 'scientific claims' made for them, is that the are so widely open to interpretation that it is practically possible to infer anything from them that one might wish. Nor do any of the claims made by them hold any real weight in science - because they fail to provide any model for scientific proof. They are simply statements of the way things are - which come directly from 'God's own mouth'. They are in other words proclamations - and proclamations of this nature have no validity whatsoever in science - no matter how they might have been (re)interpreted in an attempt to match modern scientific thinking. This is simply nothing more than a modern fashion - at a period in our history when the claims made by religion are becoming harder and harder to sustain. Modern science is not 'amazed' by the accuracy of the Qu'ran - or of the Bible - as some of their supporters claim, indeed science is largely indifferent to them - even if the various exponents of these texts feel increasingly embattled and unable to ignore the validity of science. But in any case, I feel I might be over stepping the mark a little here - because serious scientists do not spend very large amounts of their time debating the validity or otherwise of specific sections of the various religious texts that are currently in existence. The reasoning for this is clear, in that it is simply a fruitless and pointless task; because no matter how logical clear and concise the answers you give might be, you are likely to only ever be confronted by a wall of rhetoric - which it is clear that nothing you could say could ever possibly penetrate. One just ends up being caught in a trap of never ending, repetitive and completely cyclic arguments. So I would rather, if I could simply stick to the subject of discussing the possibility (or improbability) of the existence of God from a purely scientific perspective - and then leave the readers to simply make up their own minds. And no one bases a religion over cloud formation or trees forming Arabic verses and trees in the shape of a man praying *which all I have seen*. Those are just some phenomenal things that just adds to the already HUGE belief in God millions and millions of us have. Well at least we are on vaguely scientific ground again with this comment. Pray why don't you tell us (without looking it up) just how you think the process of cloud formation works, and/or what processes are involved which occasionally allow us to interpret many of the things we see, such as clouds, or trees, or indistinct smudges on a piece of burned toast to be something significant and meaningful? (To me this looks a bit like the 1940's American movie star Rita Hayworth - but I do not think that this will cause me to fall down on my knees and worship her as a 'Godess' any time soon). Can you perhaps attempt to discuss any of these things from a scientific perspective only? Is there for you any other possible explanation other than a mystical one? Answer this and then perhaps we might have a much more interesting and informative discussion. Best regards, GJ Edited July 24, 2005 by raid517 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hAsin Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 bah too much to read. And besides, whatever i say isnt gonna turn you around. Lets all just leave each other with their own beliefs and the truth will be revealed in the future. But take my word *look it up or something*, The moment the Sun Rises from the west, you and millions will instantly believe in God. And also, The moment the Sun Rises from the west, no matter what you do will get you into heaven *for eternity* ;) but thats what me and millions believe anyway. Oh btw, a friend of mine is more religious than me, but hes in UK right now, when he's back i'll get him to talk to you on msnmsgr or some other IM program eh? He should be able to answer all your Q n As :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raid517 Posted July 25, 2005 Author Share Posted July 25, 2005 bah too much to read. Oh BTW, a friend of mine is more religious than me, but hes in UK right now, when he's back I'll get him to talk to you on msnmsgr or some other IM program eh? He should be able to answer all your Q n As :) 586268015[/snapback] I think that may possibly be the definition of ignorance. It seems to me that you would prefer to simply pretend that no counter arguments exist, rather than expend the effort that is needed in order to understand them. In any case - having read them - I care little to try to disprove the specific contents of the Qu'ran or the Bible - because it is like arguing with a wall - in that a wall is never likely to say anything very useful back. If you friend wishes to discuss anything with me then fine - but I will not waste much of my time on him, if like you he is not prepared to listen to the alternative explanations I have posted - and to try to argue with them on a factual, non religious and non rhetorical basis. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hAsin Posted July 26, 2005 Share Posted July 26, 2005 no he'll read everything and answer you back :) I would read it, but yeah college. And The Quran And Bible not saying anything usefull might insult some people too ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raid517 Posted July 26, 2005 Author Share Posted July 26, 2005 Well they don't say anything particularly useful to me. But that I'm afraid wether you like it or not is really my choice. I have no idea at all why you should find that insulting. This is what get's me about you religious types, I mean I'm all for respecting people (perhaps more so than many of those who claim to be religious and themselves demand tollerance - because at least I believe in the rights of women, the right to abortion, the rights of peoples of different colours, the right to decide on one's own sexuality an so on) - but you religious sorts seem to just 'expect' automatic respect whether you have earned it or not. But I ask you, if I really do think relgion is simply another expresssion of primitive ignorance, as I do, then what exactly is there for me to respect? It saddens and depresses me yes - and sometimes given the kind of brutality it can result in it often sickens me - but often if I am honest I simply find myself despising it, just as I find myself despising all forms of ignorance. GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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