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Nintendo President on Revolution resolution

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Laughing-Man    0
Gamecube supports 480p resolution (640x480) . 720p or HD is 1280x720 which is exactly 3 times the pixels as 480p. Going with Iwata's comments, Revolution should have no problems handling that resolution. Also the main factors making 360 & PS3 expensive (compared to Rev) are the extra features, not HD.

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Technically speaking I do not think it is safe to say that since a GameCube can output at 480, a 2-3x more powerful GameCube should be able to output at a 2-3x resolution. I don't think it exactly works that way and power vs. resolution is a 1:1 ratio. Besides graphics, the processing power could be dedicated to do other things like physics, sound, or new graphical effects and as a result there may not be enough to calculate the amount of data required to fill a frame buffer to output in HD.

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jerry    0
Technically speaking I do not think it is safe to say that since a GameCube can output at 480, a 2-3x more powerful GameCube should be able to output at a 2-3x resolution.

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Most Gamecube games are 480p, a 2-3x more powerful Rev should be capable of handling 720p.

I don't think it exactly works that way and power vs. resolution is a 1:1 ratio. 

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It works that way.

Besides graphics, the processing power could be dedicated to do other things like physics, sound, or new graphical effects and as a result there may not be enough to calculate the amount of data required to fill a frame buffer to output in HD.

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Have you forgotten that the Revolution is also powered by a custom IBM cpu which I'm sure the programmers will make use of. As for the frame buffer, Gamecube has 2MB frame buffer right ? Moving that to 10MB would be enough for 720p.

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Laughing-Man    0
Most Gamecube games are 480p, a 2-3x more powerful Rev should be capable of handling 720p.

Its obvious that games running at 480p resolution run very well, who knows how every game will run at 720p or 1080p? Also they were very vague saying "2-3x powerful", which could mean numerious things. 2-3x powerful processing-wise? 2-3x powerful graphics-wise?

It works that way.

Do you any info that backs up power vs. resolution is a 1:1 ratio? Just saying it doesn't make it so.

Have you forgotten that the Revolution is also powered by a custom IBM cpu which I'm sure the programmers will make use of. As for the frame buffer, Gamecube has 2MB frame buffer right ? Moving that to 10MB would be enough for 720p.
Memory for a framebuffer isn't cheap. Especially if they need to use L1 or L2 level caches. I work with buffers and memory storage all day, I know how expensive they can be.

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jerry    0
Its obvious that games running at 480p resolution run very well, who knows how every game will run at 720p or 1080p?

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480p on Gamecube is no big deal, I'm not sure why 720p is such a big deal for Revolution.

Do you any info that backs up power vs. resolution is a 1:1 ratio?  Just saying it doesn't make it so.

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I wasnt contesting the 1:1 ratio, I was saying that from what Iwata has said so far, Revolution looks capable of handling 720p. But the point stands, more pixels require more pixel shading power.

Memory for a framebuffer isn't cheap.  Especially if they need to use L1 or L2 level caches.

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I dont think L1 or L2 caches are used in consoles. :unsure:

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Laughing-Man    0
480p on Gamecube is no big deal, I'm not sure why 720p is such a big deal for Revolution.

I wasnt contesting the 1:1 ratio, I was saying that from what Iwata has said so far, Revolution looks capable of handling 720p. But the point stands, more pixels require more pixel shading power.

I don't have a clue why Nintendo makes what seem to be off the wall decisions, but they must have a reason. Iwata was a game developer at HAL Labs so he must know something about game development that we don't, which may be his basis reaspm for not including HD.

I don't want to give a whole damn speech, but Nintendo has been around for a hundred something years, 20 something in the console business, so they must know a thing or two about creating consoles to be around this long and survive when a ton of companies in the past have failed. I just think the decision to not support HD was for cost reasons, not because they don't want to. Plus IMO I think alot more aspects of a console that hold a higher precidence then supporting HD where the money and the cost of the system should be spent on.

I dont think L1 or L2 caches are used in consoles.  :unsure:
I can't imagine a processor without them. Edited by jmole

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jerry    0
I don't have a clue why Nintendo makes what seem to be off the wall decisions, but they must have a reason.  Iwata was a game developer at HAL Labs so he must know something about game development that we don't, which may be his basis for not including HD. 

I don't want to give a whole damn speech, but Nintendo has been around for a hundred something years, 20 something in the console business, so they must know a thing or two about creating consoles to be around this long and survive when a ton of companies in the past have failed.

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Fair enough. Until the specs are announced, I'm inclined to think Revolution has the power for HD.

I can't imagine a processor without them.

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Um, you are confused. L1, L2 cache for the console cpu is different from the frame buffer.

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Laughing-Man    0
Fair enough. Until the specs are announced, I'm inclined to think Revolution has the power for HD.

Um, you are confused. L1, L2 cache for the console cpu is different from the frame buffer.

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I was responding to how you phrased your sentence: "I dont think L1 or L2 caches are used in consoles. unsure.gif"

Since I am a computer engineer I use descrete math logic all the time and it can be applied to pretty much anything including what you said:

A. A processor contains L1 and L2 cache.

B. A console contains a processor.

C. A console contains L1 and L2 cache.

A = true B = true

Using a truth table, A is true and B is true therefore C is true, so one can conclude that: Since a console contains a processor and a processor has L1 and L2 cache, a console contains L1 and L2 cache.

I wasn't trying to say a frame buffer uses the same type of cache as a processor.

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jerry    0
I wasn't trying to say a frame buffer uses the same type of cache as a processor.

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That is how it came across when you said:

Memory for a framebuffer isn't cheap.? Especially if they need to use L1 or L2 level caches.

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S7R1K3R    9

the console industry is not based on a graphics driven market like some suggested but a piracy market. which console can be modded the easiest and with how easy the games can be reproduced. thats all there is to it. dont deny the fact sony only got this far because their execs released mod chips behind developers back to put more consoles out there. its a catch 22 because the more consoles out there the more possibility of more sales. at least microsoft puts out updates and regularly tries to stop pirates. same with nintendo. this is the one and only reason people know the word playstation because of $5 games you can buy off the newsstand.

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Laughing-Man    0
That is how it came across when you said:

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A framebuffer more then likely uses L1 or L2 cache, and it is expesnive. And L1\L2 cache that is found in a processor more then likely is not the same as L1\L2 cache used by other components, I never said it was it was the same. I was just saying a console has L1\L2 cache because it has a processor in it.

I can't see a framebuffer for a console using external memory, because it is way too slow and it doesn't have much external memory in the first place. So if it is using L1 or L2 cache then it will cost more for increasing the size of the L1\L2 cache if they need to output in HD. Sure you can run HD games using a small framebuffer, but you are going to have framerate problems and I rather not play games that run like a powerpoint slidehow. The only way to compensate for that small frame buffer is to increase the bandwidth for transferring data to and from the framebuffer, but that would cost more too. As I said before I have no ideal what Nintendo means when they say the console is 2-3x more powerful, which is not being very specific technical-wise so I don't think anyone should be able to judge whether the Revolution could output HD until specs are released.

Edited by jmole

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jerry    0
the console industry is not based on a graphics driven market like some suggested but a piracy market.  which console can be modded the easiest and with how easy the games can be reproduced.  thats all there is to it.  dont deny the fact sony only got this far because their execs released mod chips behind developers back to put more consoles out there.  its a catch 22 because the more consoles out there the more possibility of more sales.  at least microsoft puts out updates and regularly tries to stop pirates.  same with nintendo.  this is the one and only reason people know the word playstation because of $5 games you can buy off the newsstand.

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Piracy is one big factor, I agree.

I can't see a framebuffer using external memory, because it is way too slow.  So if it is using L1 or L2 cache then it will cost more for increasing the size of the L1\L2 cache if they need to output in HD.

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Again, for frame buffer consoles dont use L1/L2. Gamecube uses 1T-SRAM which is a hybrid type.

As I said before I have no ideal what Nintendo means when they say the console is 2-3x more powerful, which is not being very specific technical-wise so I don't think anyone should be able to judge whether the Revolution could have outputed in HD until specs are released.

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A derivative of X800 or even an X600 GPU can do HD, I'm willing to bet Revolution will have atleast that much power.

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Laughing-Man    0
Piracy is one big factor, I agree.

Again, for frame buffer consoles dont use L1/L2. Gamecube uses 1T-SRAM which is a hybrid type.

A derivative of X800 or even an X600 GPU can do HD, I'm willing to bet Revolution will have atleast that much power.

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Ugh I probably should have been more specific in my last post. I was referring to nextgen consoles when I was talking about using L1/L2 cache for a framebuffer, not current gen consoles. I am well aware what the current gen consoles use as a frame buffer, hence probably the reason that may developers don't make HD games for current gen system. I just can't see nextgen consoles getting away without using faster type of a cache for the frame buffer.

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notuptome2004    154

well Nintendo has siad that NR will not be outputing HD but i think they may change ther mind once they see they can do it. now iam alsmot thinking the NR will run at 2.4ghz single chip as rumord long time ago and the graphics may be justa X800 customized for the console with less ram and sutch but same features so for graphics if it is a x800 it wont be as good as Xbox 360 and PS3 for that matter prolly not but will do a great job and if by chance they do use a 2.4ghz only chip and X800 or X600 with maby the clock speeds we have now on the PC side with them then i would say 720P should not be an issue thats if they decide they want HD output.

but out of the 3 consoels my Money is on the Xbox360 cause of right now it is the only console that is Real and shows and is starting to shwo what it can do

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Doli    545
Better graphics don't mean more high resolution textures, effects and a bazillion polygons. Aestheticaly speaking, Zelda is by leaps and bouds much more attractive visually than 80% of the next generation titles show so far.

umm i dont think so. wher do you get that diea from ide like to know so you mean that the Zelda on GC and the GC for that matter can creat in game images liek this

post-74594-1122369510_thumb.jpgpost-74594-1122369532_thumb.jpg

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the first image... Is that in game screenshot, movie CGI, or just a tech demo?

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jerry    0
Ugh I probably should have been more specific in my last post. I was referring to nextgen consoles when I was talking about using L1/L2 cache for a framebuffer, not current gen consoles.  I am well aware what the current gen consoles use as a frame buffer, hence probably the reason that may developers don't make  HD games for current gen system.  I just can't see nextgen consoles getting away without using faster type of a cache for the frame buffer.

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Even the next gen consoles arent using the cpu's L1/L2 as frame buffer. I think both PS3 & 360 use the GDDR3 for it.

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notuptome2004    154
the first image... Is that in game screenshot, movie CGI, or just a tech demo?

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that would be an in game screenshot same with the 2nd shot they are both in game. Xbox 360 will be relased in november and so almost 80% of the games i would say in devlopment are near complated and or be done by that time or unlessed slated for relase in early 2006 .

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Dale    16
unfortuenly i have to agree. well untill good games started comming out for those consoles :p but i have to admit i still play my snes on a *almost* daily basis. alongside the ps2/gc .. still need to get the xbox =/ and don't flame me for saying that, i still want it and i recokon i'd play the xbox alot more then the xbox360 when it first comes out

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i agree with you to a twist.. i have so many old consoles, I can't have them all hooked up at once. I own a NES/Sega Genesis/N64. I play the old consoles on a almost daily basis when they are hooked up. Currently, the N64 is hooked up.

and as for the HD thing. I don't think there was an official annoucement by Nintendo saying HD is not supported.

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Laughing-Man    0
Even the next gen consoles arent using the cpu's L1/L2 as frame buffer. I think both PS3 & 360 use the GDDR3 for it.

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I have no clue what they are using, but that RAM or memory storage better have a pretty large bandwidth and operate at a high speed for all the data that will be written and read from it.

I was also thinking about something else, which could have been a deciding factor for including or not including HD. A big part of the Revolution is backwards compatiblity. Have you ever seen Nintendo or Super Nintendo games that use sprites at a high resolution? It doesn't look pretty without using some rendering method to make it look better or redoing the entire game at a higher resolution, which I seriously doubt they would even consider doing.

Edited by jmole

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jerry    0
I was also thinking about something else, which could have been a deciding factor for including or not including HD.  A big part of the Revolution is backwards compatiblity.  Have you ever seen Nintendo or Super Nintendo games that use sprites at a high resolution?  It doesn't look pretty without using some rendering method to make it look better or redoing the entire game at a higher resolution, which I seriously doubt they would even consider doing.

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Consoles dont have fixed resolution, they can scale up or down easily.

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C-Fu    0
A big part of the Revolution is backwards compatiblity.  Have you ever seen Nintendo or Super Nintendo games that use sprites at a high resolution?  It doesn't look pretty without using some rendering method to make it look better or redoing the entire game at a higher resolution, which I seriously doubt they would even consider doing.

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ZSNES has a lot of filtering methods that does this very very well, so that's not the excuse imo

simply put, there are tons of non-first world countries which have no idea wtf is HD.

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nav1    0
Consoles dont have fixed resolution, they can scale up or down easily.

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Good that you mention that. When Iwata says they will not support HD, is there like a constraint in the hardware to prevent them (third parties) from doing it? I mean it has always confused me how it can not be supported, I'm pretty sure someone will be able to do it. Developers find ways to do what they want to do. I never thought I'd see an FMV on N64, yet capcom pulled it of with RE2 (granted they were compressed, but still)

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Epimetheus    0

Ok this is starting to **** me off.

Everytime a bloody newspiece on Revolution appears on these boards, it grows into a behemoth topic and it gets thousands upon thousands of views. JUST LIKE THIS ONE.

Now this forum is filled with mostly PS3 and Xbox 360 fans, now there's either two bloody things going on here.

One; there's a tons of Nintendo lurkers on this board and they refuse to show themselves.

Two; there's a ton of Xbox 360, Revolution, and PS3 fans, all viewing this, yet Nintendo Revolution fans in the majority.

COME OUT AND HELP US BEAT BACK THIS STORM MY BRETHREN! :p

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faraway.    0

I am a NINTENDO FANBOY AS YOU CAN SEE IN MY AVATAR! I LOVE NINTENDO AND THEY WILL PROSPER AND DEFEAT THE EVILS OF MICROSOFT AND SONY IN THE NEXT CONSOLE WAR!!! :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

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Trauma    0

I live in switzerland. A country with high standards, good income per head and more than a few high-tech companies.

Still, the majority does not know what HD is and it's really hard to get a HD TV in stores. It's not supportet at all here as there are no cablecompanies sending digital HD TV. And if I'm not severly mistaken, same goes for the rest of europe. I bet there's not more than 1% HD TVs in europe.

Considering this, I couldn't care less about HD resolution. All I want is a fun game. :)

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iller    2

The most important thing in a game is the game-play.

Sure graphics is a part of it but not that important, at least not to me.

So to the point, when I usually make this remark I either get the ?Nintendo fan boy? sign over my head or a big slap in the face.

The point of a discussion is to discuss, but this topic just gets me to a wall saying ?you are stupid, you are wrong?.

I will play games on all consoles and enjoy them all while all the graphic-horny devils can keep themselves to PS3 or XBOX360.

And I am really looking forward to playing the old new NES, SNES and N64 games I never had the possibility to play before, on revolution.

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