Zeitgeist Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Microsoft NEEDS to stop designing interfaces that are bloated! 586293295[/snapback] "They" didn't make it bloated, you did. It's obvious you have all kinds of ugly junk all over the place. I've attached my "bloated" IE window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 I just wonder why IE7 looks so much like Firefox :huh: 586293914[/snapback] One could say Firefox looks like IE4 with an included search bar. How does it look "so much" like Firefox, the inclusion of a search bar? That seems about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xav Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 Still, we should be mindful that even if IE did it first, the mozillaites will put fingers in both ears, hum loudly and continue to accuse IE of stealing the design they emulated to begin with. Hum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devyant Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Face it, this "egg or chicken first?" thingy will go on forever. IE 7 Beta 1 is working very well for a BETA product. It's definitely heading towards the right direction. Customisability is still minimum, hoping it'll change real soon. Resource usage, DEFINITELY LOWER than Firefox. Glitches: Tabbed browsing not perfect yet. Opera still provides the best experience in this area Picture preview auto-resize still a troublesome thing procedure, user have to hover over the picture or click it multiple times for the "Show Original Size" button to appear and ultimately clicked on. In this version, that damned button sure does like to play hide and seek more often. Also, the button also have a little bug that covers the picture when you scroll around the big picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriz Posted July 31, 2005 Share Posted July 31, 2005 Would you judge a meal before its been cooked? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antaris Veteran Posted July 31, 2005 Veteran Share Posted July 31, 2005 Ok, im going to go on a bit of a rant here... The IE7 Beta Now, as everyone knows, this is just a technical beta aimed at developers to get to get an idea of what exactly is running under the hood. It's not a beta aimed at the developers who are obsessed with web standards, nor is it aimed at the end user. It is just an early beta, most of the final features are still pre-pubesant, there either not complete, or still only on the drawing board. Standards and Tests I have read through so many complaints about IE's lack of support for some web standards, and it's failure to render the Acid2 test, but I have also been extensively reading into the IE Team's material and have come to the following assumptions: Support for web standards is going to be in place for later builds/betas/RCs, but is currently not top priority (security is, and probably will always be near the top). But the final release or IE7 should have a substantially larger footprint in the CSS-mud. The Acid2 test, although considered by some as the benchmark for CSS-compliancy, cant be considered as a true test of the browsers compliance with these web standards. The Acid2 Test is an idealist test, whereby it compares a browsers ability to render according to how developers want it to render, not exactly how the CSS-specification says it should render. That is why so many browsers do not pass it. Interface People are always going to be comparing one browser to another, in every aspect, as far as interfaces are concerned, who cares if one looks similar to another, in my honest opinion, i think that is a good thing... if you are making the transition from one browser to another, it could be damn helpful to know that they are similarly laid out, it makes the whole process easier. And as Zeitgeist said, you can't really complain about bloated interfaces, as it's your own fault you have one. You can hide the toolbars, you can hide the status bar, you can change the icons (if you know how...and most of you do), so why complain. If you don't like it bloated...hide some on the components of the interface. Trolling The guidelines of this forum state that in no circumstance should you troll, and this topic clearly shows a number of users who are not respecting those guidelines. There are enough websites and forums out there which are completely bias, and this can have a serious effect on the social atmosphere of a website/forum, let's not turn Neowin into a slagging forum. Oh, and just so there is no confusion...i am a Firefox user... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt A. Tobin Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 "oh noes, the beta software i illegally downloaded sucks! let me post a thread about it!" 586290194[/snapback] yeah well.. i dont expect alot from ms but eather way it kinda does suck a bit hope the next verson i illegally downloads will spawn another thread :blink: anyway... it needs to be more customizable again but hey they havent done anything really new since ie4 other than some tweaks and the SP2 stuff for xp... looking forward to my next illegal copy :shifty: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 antaris, I like your style - you take time to layout your thoughts in an easy to read way. Hopefully the progress that has been made with IE7 so far is just a glimpse, because there are a lot of problems with rendering and standards compliance that need to be addressed. Also, security is a big issue because it is the most popular browser - I hope progress is made in this area, as the SP2 update certainly helped a lot. This is definitely progress for IE users, however I don't feel it is enough to compete with what Firefox / Opera have added to the browsing experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antaris Veteran Posted August 1, 2005 Veteran Share Posted August 1, 2005 antaris, I like your style - you take time to layout your thoughts in an easy to read way. Hopefully the progress that has been made with IE7 so far is just a glimpse, because there are a lot of problems with rendering and standards compliance that need to be addressed. Also, security is a big issue because it is the most popular browser - I hope progress is made in this area, as the SP2 update certainly helped a lot. This is definitely progress for IE users, however I don't feel it is enough to compete with what Firefox / Opera have added to the browsing experience. 586308762[/snapback] I did wonder if anyone was going to continue this thread :p As with any new build, you can't expect everything to be perfect, thats what these beta releases are for, to iron out the creases of a soon to be widely distributed platform. I think people are likely to get the most out of IE7 if they run it on Vista, but im glad they are porting a version for XP. But all these new features will bring new life into old browsers, as their developers actively update their browsers to compete with this new juggernaut... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcv Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 Some info on IE7 and css standards: http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx Good stuff, hopefully they'll add a loot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 As with any new build, you can't expect everything to be perfect, thats what these beta releases are for, to iron out the creases of a soon to be widely distributed platform. 586309085[/snapback] I completely agree. However, with the exception of tabs and RSS feeds (which are good improvements) it is still the same old browser with the same rendering problems and it is holding back the development of websites. Obviously problems with the interface and user friendliness will be sorted but there is no evidence of support for new features, much like there was little new with IE6. Whilst that is good for Firefox extending their lead it is bad for the web because you can never exceed IE functionality, as you cannot expect an end user to download and install a web browser. Therefore Microsoft are effectively holding web development to ransom, which I feel is a great shame. Hopefully Vista and the 3D browsing features will finally push the web past 1996. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antaris Veteran Posted August 1, 2005 Veteran Share Posted August 1, 2005 Hopefully Vista and the 3D browsing features will finally push the web past 1996. 586309254[/snapback] Lol!! We have been stuck in the same sandpit for quite a while now, but i think rejuvernating older technologies (i.e. AJAX approaches), and incorporating them into new platforms is going to bring a whole new wave of web services and applications. And i think when this new wave finally hits it big time, a palletable plethora of browsers will be available to help the end user really get that internet fix :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Floyd Veteran Posted August 1, 2005 Veteran Share Posted August 1, 2005 I have no opinion at all hehe I'm not a betatester, so can't try it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 (edited) Remember people, Microsoft follows a certain pattern when it is releasing software, beta 1 is NEVER geared towards the end user. If you are forming opinions on it because of how it currently looks, please bang your head on your desk a few times :) As we have clearly seen, the work put into Beta 1 was plumbing work - increase security and refactor code to make it easier to work with. The security has been improved dramatically with Beta 1 (making it run in its own memory space to avoid it from affecting other applications, using the least-privilege user access system in Windows Vista to tighten it down to the ground so there will be dramatically less chances of something bad happening inside of the browser, anti-phishing security notifications, etc.) and according to the recent developments shown at the Internet Explorer Blog, it seems they have refactored the code quite a bit to make it easier to work with. Beta 2 is where things will get interesting. So far they have eliminated the majority of show-stopper bugs in the rendering engine (we will finally have line-height and double-float rendering fixed! YES!), and they added some new functionality from CSS and HTML. The most interesting changes in CSS rendering is probably how :hover will work on all elements now and fixed positioning is now possible - CSS dropdown menus that always stay visible, here we come! They have also added support for <abbr>, fixed backgrounds in CSS, and they now handle PNGs almost totally correct (Gamma correction still needs to be implemented.) And, from my understanding, we can expect a lot more concerning the rendering engine and I'm sure most of the user interface problems will be resolved. Internet Explorer 7 is shaping up to be a good browser. It is a major step forward for web designers and the majority of web users. I don't think it would be crazy to say that Internet Explorer 8 will be good too, and it won't take as long for us to have it on our hands as Internet Explorer 7 took. The reason Internet Explorer 7 took so long is because the Internet Explorer team was working on Avalon, the programming API for the Windows Graphics Foundation in Windows Vista and they weren't working on Internet Explorer other than fixing security problems. They are back together working on Internet Explorer now, so things should get interesting again. I don't think it would be logical to really form an opinion on Internet Explorer 7 yet. I don't think it'll be logical when Beta 2 is released either. If you have any particular suggestions for the team, there development blog allows anyone and everyone to comment on entries. If I don't post your suggestions now and end up disappointed when it is finalized, I don't want to hear you crying :p Edit: I just noticed that someone felt the need to create a news entry on the front page of Neowin about how Internet Explorer 7 will not pass the Acid2 test. While that is true, the Acid2 test barely scratches the surface of the standards (and the reason for this is that it is basically a wishlist put together by WaSP and Hakon Wium Lie, the creator of CSS.) Acid2 means practically nothing in the grand scheme of things. Even my beloved Opera hasn't passed the Acid2 test yet, and Firefox won't attempt passing it until 2.0 (they said 1.5 but their 1.1 has been ditched for 1.5 so it is logical to assume they now mean 2.0.) The Acid2 test should be passed by all browsers, but it is not a "do it all now, fast!" situation, it will take a while for all browser developers to pass it. Also, I think it is important to point out that the IEBlog has been redesigned! The new design is easier to read, doesn't feel as chaotic, and it works properly in Opera now. See, the team does listen! :) Edited August 1, 2005 by megamanXplosion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted August 1, 2005 Share Posted August 1, 2005 The Acid2 Test is an idealist test, whereby it compares a browsers ability to render according to how developers want it to render, not exactly how the CSS-specification says it should render. I disagree. The test compares the ability of browsers to render the page according to standards. The Safari developers have already gone through the test and they only found one thing that didn't comply with the standard, and they reported it to the Web Standards Project (WaSP) and it was soon fixed (which is shortly before Safari passed the test.) The test was created according to the standards - afterall, why would the creator of the CSS standard (Hakon Wium Lie, CTO of Opera Software) create a test that went against a decade (give or take) of his own work? That makes no sense. The Internet Explorer team has valid reasons for not worrying about the Acid2 test as of now, but that isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proforma Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Firefox rocks. No compitation. If MS doesn't do anything about IE, they will keep loosing market share in browser battle. I have personally converted about 5 to 7 people and they refuse to go back to IE. I know I won't switch back to IE unless it is better than Firefox. 586292204[/snapback] Welcome to 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proforma Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Welcome to 2004 586311521[/snapback] "What! IE 7 doesn't have purple buttons!!!?!??!?!? Firefox rules! I am switching back! IE 7 is for losers!" hehehe sorry. I couldn't resist making fun of the corny little trolls that have no idea how software processes work. I am really waiting for Beta 2 before I jump in as that will have most of the goods and with the final goods being delivered by Release canidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username(); Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 it stinks.... you can't uninstall it..sh........t 586299321[/snapback] No..your just a n00b who installed something he shouldn't have. It's a beta, things can get messy fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antaris Veteran Posted August 2, 2005 Veteran Share Posted August 2, 2005 I disagree. The test compares the ability of browsers to render the page according to standards. The Safari developers have already gone through the test and they only found one thing that didn't comply with the standard, and they reported it to the Web Standards Project (WaSP) and it was soon fixed (which is shortly before Safari passed the test.) The test was created according to the standards - afterall, why would the creator of the CSS standard (Hakon Wium Lie, CTO of Opera Software) create a test that went against a decade (give or take) of his own work? That makes no sense.The Internet Explorer team has valid reasons for not worrying about the Acid2 test as of now, but that isn't one of them. 586310035[/snapback] Thats fair enough, I'm not gonna disagree with that with my own views, but as I said in my previous post, some people don't consider it to be that important to pass. For the large part of the community, as long as it renders your favourite pages ok, then why worry about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xacci Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I no longer use firefox. That should answer your question. 586290129[/snapback] If you install it as an update for IE6, then everything works except the windows update which everyone is now familiar with. And I agree, if you didn't pay for it, then don't knock it... works great. You do have access to favorites no matter which mode of installation you choose, you just have to know how to run favorites on the stand alone installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTD Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Microsoft sets browser standards, for obvious reasons. In Microsoft's eyes, W3C is a rogue element that is simply standing in its way. If most of the websites out there will *still* be designed with IE in mind, then W3C is just another thinly-veiled attempt driven by the open source movement to somehow "merge" technologies and coding in order to create a better, friendlier, happier world. IE7 non-compliance (yet) with W3C dreaming doesn't mean a damn in the real world. The only two browsers that matter in the grand scheme of things (read: Microsoft's target market) are IE and Firefox. Neither support W3C standards perfectly, and IE still has the lead in browser market share. Most government and corporate bodies use IE, and design websites with IE in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilgore Trout Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 I like it....The only thing I miss is the right click on the back button to go back to a previous page.... and no I don't like tabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VLR Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 beta BETA BETA BETA BETA BETA Damm, it's beta, stop complaning about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Microsoft sets browser standards, for obvious reasons.In Microsoft's eyes, W3C is a rogue element that is simply standing in its way. If most of the websites out there will *still* be designed with IE in mind, then W3C is just another thinly-veiled attempt driven by the open source movement to somehow "merge" technologies and coding in order to create a better, friendlier, happier world. IE7 non-compliance (yet) with W3C dreaming doesn't mean a damn in the real world. The only two browsers that matter in the grand scheme of things (read: Microsoft's target market) are IE and Firefox. Neither support W3C standards perfectly, and IE still has the lead in browser market share. Most government and corporate bodies use IE, and design websites with IE in mind. Microsoft doesn't set the standards, they do help to create many of them though. W3C is the standards body itself. Microsoft, Opera Software, Mozilla Foundation, Adobe, Sun, IBM, etc. are all major players inside of W3C working together to create new web standards. The W3C is coordinated by the very person who created the World Wide Web. The W3C is not some "open source movement" ran by a bunch of nobodies, it is the entire industry trying to move forward while being held back by luggage (like ignorant web designers and "Microsoft standards.") The "Microsoft standards" people keep talking about are broken implementations of W3C's really old specifications and their own lovely (that was sarcasm) additions, like ActiveX. Microsoft isn't doing anything new or exciting and what they have done is held the web from its full potential. Microsoft has gotten its act together now that Avalon (the IE team was assigned to work on this for the last few years) has been completed and the Internet Explorer team has been reassembled to work on Internet Explorer again. Guess what the Internet Explorer team are doing right now - improving their compliance with the W3C standards that they helped create. Does Internet Explorer's non-compliance with newer standards mean something? Absolutely. It means that web designers and developers will need to continue checking their work in multiple browsers, have to write code for specific browsers to fix their problems, have to sacrifice accessibility because it is difficult for many to achieve tableless designs (and just for the record, the new W3C standard allows this with ease and Internet Explorer is the only one that doesn't help), it is more difficult to achieve interoperability among different devices (print, projection, webtv, mobile, screen, aural, etc.,) people will continue to be hard-headed about coding to standards and the people who come in afterwards to redesign a site will be confronted with unexpected problems that arise from the original designer's faulty code, etc. Those are all problems that we face today because Microsoft hadn't kept up its support for standards. A lot of governments also deprive their people of food, that doesn't mean what they are doing is right. I design my pages with Internet Explorer in mind, but also: Opera, Firefox, Safari, and Konqueror. Designing for one browser on one operating system on one device is silly, the web was never intended to be like that - and it sucks like that. Why design for simply Internet Explorer when you could design sites for every browser AND every device and still only have to check the display once to ensure its accurate? Please do some reading about what W3C is all about. It seems that you don't really have anything against W3C or the standards they create, you just know nothing about either subject. I think you will be surprised how much Microsoft is holding us back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTD Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Holding us back? Who are "us"? The average user, or the average Neowinian? There's a big difference. Browser usage statistics for the month of July, 2005, from W3schools: IE 6: 67.9% (other sites have figures as high as 80%) IE 5: 5.9% Opera 7: 0.4% Opera 8: 0.8% Firefox: 19.8% Mozilla: 2.6% Netscape 7: 0.5% Why the hell are web developers coding for non-demand crap like Opera and Netscape??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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