Conformity_Inc Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Holding us back? Who are "us"? The average user, or the average Neowinian? There's a big difference.Browser usage statistics for the month of July, 2005, from W3schools: IE 6: 67.9% (other sites have figures as high as 80%) IE 5: 5.9% Opera 7: 0.4% Opera 8: 0.8% Firefox: 19.8% Mozilla: 2.6% Netscape 7: 0.5% Why the hell are web developers coding for non-demand crap like Opera and Netscape??? 586314804[/snapback] Standards my son, standards. You know, like bananas have to be a certain size before they can be imported into the EU....You can buy a game killing cops, stealing cars, picking up prostitutes etc, but if you see a pixelated boob then all hell shall break loose. Remember, standards aren't for your benefit, they're for theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Holding us back? Who are "us"? The average user, or the average Neowinian? There's a big difference. Lack of progress is bad for everyone. Why the hell are web developers coding for non-demand crap like Opera and Netscape??? Web developers/designers that are "coding for non-demand crap" aren't coding for non-demand crap, they are coding according to the standards and the "non-demand crap" works. That is more than we can say about Internet Explorer in its current state (why else do you think the Internet Explorer team have spent the majority of their current work trying to fix "bang-your-head-on-your-desk problems"?) Coding for an individual peice of software is not the way the web is supposed to work, it's supposed to be interoperable between software and hardware. Microsoft, Netscape, Opera, Konqueror, Firefox, iCab, Safari, IBM, Sun, Adobe, Macromedia, etc. all recognize that interoperability is the most important priority for the web to truly progress, why are the actual designers the most ignorant about the issue and the most resisting of reaching that goal? It's mind-numbing, to say the least. Also, web browser statistics are pointless. The only purpose they serve to designers (or should I dare say, amateur designers) is to exclude some certain browsers from their development process and that, by its very nature, goes against everything the web stands for (access for everyone.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mouldy Punk Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Basically w3c make the guidelines of how to code. If web devs follow W3C by the book - it should work in ALL browsers - because they make the standard. That's the theory. The reality is - coding by the book will work in nearlly all browsers - but most probably not in IE. So the web-dev has to bend a few rules to make IE understand - which will then confuse other browsers because they are trying to follow the standard. IE is the odd ball. It needs to change. IE 6: 67.9% (other sites have figures as high as 80%)IE 5: 5.9% Opera 7: 0.4% Opera 8: 0.8% Firefox: 19.8% Mozilla: 2.6% Netscape 7: 0.5% Most of the users here us Windows. What browser comes with windows? Oh yeah, internet explorer. Just because more people use it, doesn't mean it's the best. It's far from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTD Posted August 2, 2005 Share Posted August 2, 2005 Perhaps W3C needs to step into line with the directional development of IE, and not the other way around? If IE is still the most popular browser, with IE 7 not far away (and therefore potentially increasing in usage) wouldn't it be better and easier to simply embrace IE's evolutionary pace/direction? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcv Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Perhaps W3C needs to step into line with the directional development of IE, and not the other way around?If IE is still the most popular browser, with IE 7 not far away (and therefore potentially increasing in usage) wouldn't it be better and easier to simply embrace IE's evolutionary pace/direction? Just a thought. 586315910[/snapback] Uhhh no. That's not how standards work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlorpromazine Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Perhaps W3C needs to step into line with the directional development of IE, and not the other way around?If IE is still the most popular browser, with IE 7 not far away (and therefore potentially increasing in usage) wouldn't it be better and easier to simply embrace IE's evolutionary pace/direction? Just a thought. 586315910[/snapback] My own thought: web coders learnt the basics by reading books or W3C references; they have an idea, then they put it in code. They check for errors within the most popular rendering engines (gecko, presto, ie). In Gecko and Presto browsers they notice an error and they get a clue on how to correct it. Why? 'cause they are standard-compliant. When your website shows perfectly in Opera and Firefox and not within IE, you do not know what to do. Usually, the problematic feature is just took off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Perhaps W3C needs to step into line with the directional development of IE, and not the other way around?If IE is still the most popular browser, with IE 7 not far away (and therefore potentially increasing in usage) wouldn't it be better and easier to simply embrace IE's evolutionary pace/direction? Just a thought. Embrace IE's "evolutionary pace" - yeah, we'll add two tiny features to the web every decade and when we promise something, it'll come 9 years later and still not work right (in case anyone didn't understand the jab, it is about PNGs which were promised when Internet Explorer 4 was in development - Internet Explorer 7 finally supports variable transparency on them but still doesn't have gamma correction so they're off-colored and still completely useless.) Sounds great, truly it does. Or, we can make the largest and richest software company in the world develop software :sleep: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notuptome2004 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 just incase some ask or want to know that couldant figure it out and for newbees here is a image of the Refresh button ciurcled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Glad you think so highly of us web developers that pour hours into having to work around IE's broken engine. Nice and thank you very much. :no: 586292344[/snapback] I somehow doubt you do. In fact, I'm willing to bet more often than not you end up saving time because IE will often render user errors correctly. Whether that is a benefit or not is up for others to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeza Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 lol everyone keeps whining about standards when no one is following them roflmao. get over the whole standards thing for crying out loud. i could see if the tables were turned and internet explorer was just going against traffic, it's creating it. it's like driving on the wrong side of the road, i dont think anyone is going to really care how much you cry about them driving on the wrong side of the road, you either go with the flow or get ate up. i'd like to see some of you walk into someone's house who just purchased their computer at best buy and start bitching about how they should use a different web browser cause ie doesn't follow standards then throw the ridiculous w3c webpage at them and have them read it and see if they actually care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Max Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Standards are necessary ... I totally agree with Paul ! Internet Explorer is a CANCER ! It is contaminating the web, because it totally screws up the work of W3C... I don't think we should boycott it though, we should improve it and MAKE it standard compatible ! But I still can't understand why Paul, who seems to be a Microsoft lover, is now bashing IE7 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderRiver Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Yeah, it came to me as a surprise too. I wouldn't boycott IE either becuase it is still my favorite browser. More choices bring innovation. If it leaves Firefox alone to dominate the market, I won't feel too comfortable at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rahul Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 ie sux ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tech Star Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I like it. All they have to do is fix up a few bugs and add some more things like add-ons and 3rd party extensions and they should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conformity_Inc Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 It wasn't until FF just a few years ago that all the little kiddies starting bitching about standards. first it was security...ok, MS fixed a hell of a lot concerning that, now it's standards. when they implement those, what will it be then? OMG...MS is teh sux cos da f1l3 m3nu 1z und3r d4 tabzzzzzz......Oh, what am i saying, that crap has already started. Kids, can't live with them, can't kill em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTD Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 lol everyone keeps whining about standards when no one is following them roflmao.get over the whole standards thing for crying out loud. i could see if the tables were turned and internet explorer was just going against traffic, it's creating it. it's like driving on the wrong side of the road, i dont think anyone is going to really care how much you cry about them driving on the wrong side of the road, you either go with the flow or get ate up. i'd like to see some of you walk into someone's house who just purchased their computer at best buy and start bitching about how they should use a different web browser cause ie doesn't follow standards then throw the ridiculous w3c webpage at them and have them read it and see if they actually care. 586316787[/snapback] Thank you. Interesting how the most popular browser on the planet (the one nearly everyone has by default, and nearly everyone uses) doesn't measure up to these "standards." No one really cares, and few will end up caring. All that matters is the little "7" beside IE when Vista is released. Web developers need to sort this out for themselves. Joe Sixpack won't end up caring, and for that matter, nor will I. MS is basically ****ing on W3C standards and dragging its feet because it knows that its consumer base doesn't demand this sort of thing. A little more security and a popup blocker all that really matter. What will Web developers do in this situation? Most clients/organizations use IE, and depend on its framework, irrespective of its faults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 get over the whole standards thing for crying out loud. i could see if the tables were turned and internet explorer was just going against traffic, it's creating it. Nobody is following the standards? As far as browsers go, almost every major browser out there that isn't based off the Internet Explorer rendering engine follow the standards fairly accurately. Opera, Firefox/Netscape, iCab, Konqueror, Safari, etc. are all fairly good at following the standards. As far as web applications go, almost all of the bulletin board systems are moving to standards compliance; the majority of content management systems are moving to standards compliance; etc. To say that "nobody" follows standards would be a fallacy, unless you mean "nobody" as being "the entire industry except Microsoft due to not having an Internet Explorer development team when working on Windows Vista and the amateur web designers who are totally clueless about the technologies they're using." The only semi-valid excuse for not following the standards for web designers is "I don't know how yet" and the only semi-valid excuse for browser developers is "our security is like swiss cheese so we have to patch the holes." Other excuses are complete hogwash, in my honest opinion. Yes, the majority of web-traffic (for most of the non-technical sites, at least) are using Internet Explorer, so what? That does not give Internet Explorer the right to avoid standards (or create their own, special, "Microsoft standard" that is actually an official standard that was never fully supported) and it doesn't give web designers the right to build their sites as IE-only like amateurs. Internet Explorer needs to be fixed, the Internet needs to get over this whole "design for browsers" attitude (the point of standards: to accurate code according to best practices which makes all browsers, regardless of device, interoperable with eachother - designing for software is stupid and leaves a sour after-taste.) it's like driving on the wrong side of the road, i dont think anyone is going to really care how much you cry about them driving on the wrong side of the road, you either go with the flow or get ate up. Okay, so you describe Internet Explorer as someone driving on the wrong side of the road and the standards evangelists are going to get run over. If you really believe that, you are delusional. Firefox is steadily eating away at Internet Explorer and the growth of standards has increased dramatically. Internet Explorer knows that we are sick to death of their broken implementation of the standards and if they don't get their act together we are going to continue promoting alternative browsers. Luckily, the Internet Explorer team is finally together again and they are doing some major work on improving their rendering engine (to make it follow standards, to follow the road analogy: they are switching lanes before they crash.) i'd like to see some of you walk into someone's house who just purchased their computer at best buy and start bitching about how they should use a different web browser cause ie doesn't follow standards then throw the ridiculous w3c webpage at them and have them read it and see if they actually care. And those same people are totally clueless that there is such a thing as fusion reactors that are being created to solve our electricity consumption problems. Just because the majority of people don't know about it doesn't mean it is a worthless technology. The same analogy applies to standards compliance. Also, the last two computers I've bought I immediately switched the default browser to a standards-compliant one (see signature.) It wasn't until FF just a few years ago that all the little kiddies starting bitching about standards. first it was security...ok, MS fixed a hell of a lot concerning that, now it's standards. when they implement those, what will it be then? OMG...MS is teh sux cos da f1l3 m3nu 1z und3r d4 tabzzzzzz......Oh, what am i saying, that crap has already started. Kids, can't live with them, can't kill em. Argumentum ad ignorantium. Nice. MS is basically ****ing on W3C standards and dragging its feet because it knows that its consumer base doesn't demand this sort of thing. A little more security and a popup blocker all that really matter. If you had actually read anything that the Internet Explorer team has said, you would feel stupid for saying that. Microsoft reassigned the Internet Explorer dev team members to various projects (like the Avalon programming API in Windows Vista.) Now that the Internet Explorer team has been reassembled, they have created a blog at the Microsoft Development Network - they're not dragging their feet because of there is no demand for it, they simply couldn't work on it at that time and they repeatedly apologize for it on their blog because there IS demand for it. Why do you think the work in Beta 2 has been fixing some of their issues with standards compliancy? It is because they are "behind the game," to quote one of the Internet Explorer team. What will Web developers do in this situation? Most clients/organizations use IE, and depend on its framework, irrespective of its faults. Is "framework" the buzzword for "Microsoft standards," which was slang for "broken implementation of standards finalized around a decade ago," now? Intriguing. I could create a time-line for the buzzwords in this thread :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deactivated Account Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 3. There is just something weird with Menu not at the Topmost. I tried, and couldn't move it to the top. :( 586291021[/snapback] i know i want it to almost look like this and to all the users who keep saying its still in beta.. YES WE KNOW ITS IN BETA. so stop telling us its a BETA BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightRider Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 The problem is that it becomes damn slow once you get too many other programs running. And there is a big problem with the tabs. I opened a new tab and typed in an address and hit enter. I then switched to a different tab and for some reason, that tab goes to the address that i typed in instead of the new tab typed the address in. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidnightDevil Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 The problem is that it becomes damn slow once you get too many other programs running.And there is a big problem with the tabs. I opened a new tab and typed in an address and hit enter. I then switched to a different tab and for some reason, that tab goes to the address that i typed in instead of the new tab typed the address in. :( 586317555[/snapback] I already notice this two bugs, windows gets laggy after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaMeDtX Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 It looks very very slapped tougether, a 5 year old could make a better interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadkins555 Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 Question regarding RSS: Will Microsoft enable support for live bookmarks ala Mozilla Firefox, or will it remain where you only view the actual feed as a page? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockwiz Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 I find it to be significantly better then internet explorer 6, though it still needs work. It's unlikely I'd ever switch back though because the way I have firefox configured can't be duplicated on any other browser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commodore Max Posted August 3, 2005 Share Posted August 3, 2005 It wasn't until FF just a few years ago that all the little kiddies starting bitching about standards. first it was security...ok, MS fixed a hell of a lot concerning that, now it's standards. when they implement those, what will it be then? OMG...MS is teh sux cos da f1l3 m3nu 1z und3r d4 tabzzzzzz......Oh, what am i saying, that crap has already started. Kids, can't live with them, can't kill em. 586317098[/snapback] Kids ? Quit ranting and say something useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antaris Veteran Posted August 4, 2005 Veteran Share Posted August 4, 2005 Question regarding RSS:Will Microsoft enable support for live bookmarks ala Mozilla Firefox, or will it remain where you only view the actual feed as a page? 586320784[/snapback] Only they know for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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