Vista Beta 2 - December 7, 2005


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How do you know that? Have you even seen the final release?

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No, but it happens with every OS Microsoft comes out with.

Windows 2000 - SP4

Windows XP - SP2

hundreds of bugs, exploits, etc... in each. What makes Vista any different?

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hundreds of bugs, exploits, etc... in each. What makes Vista any different?

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Mind you, theres also hundreds of bugs, exploits, etc FIXED. Whats wrong with fixing stuff? Is that bad?

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at least $300 I think...

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In other words, you have no idea!

If you don't know the answer to a question, dont answer it!

Thanks :D

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No, but it happens with every OS Microsoft comes out with.

Windows 2000 - SP4

Windows XP - SP2

hundreds of bugs, exploits, etc... in each. What makes Vista any different?

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More stringent quality controls at Microsoft. Do you really think MS is so unresponsive that they haven't learned from thier mistakes?

In case you didn't know, Service Packs are not just bug fixes. They add new features, drivers and hardware support.

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How often do you actually run OpenGL applications/games windowed?? The performance of a Windowed application running via OpenGL (or DX for that matter), I have always found to be of poorer performance anyway.

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Dude, it's not limited to only windowed applications... Apparently MS "can't" switch between the emulation, so even applications in fullscreen will be emulated.

About the SP's and patches, I think you guys should actually thank MS! You should be grateful for them fixing all the problems that are found. You can't create a perfect software, there will always patches and updates.

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There are plenty of windowed OpenGL apps out there.  Just about all CAD programs run windowed and utilize OpenGL.  Layout views in 3D modeling software do the same.

Some people make their living running these apps day in and day out and any performance hit would not be acceptable.

Now the question is: If you're in AutoCAD all day, every day, what do you need AERO for anyway?  Turn it off and your apps take full control of the graphics card and run at full speed.

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Touche pal, touche :p

Dude, it's not limited to only windowed applications... Apparently MS "can't" switch between the emulation, so even applications in fullscreen will be emulated.

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Thats not what I heard, I thought I read somewhere that full screen apps will cause Windows to unload the DWM and the GFX card would then be available fully to full screen applications.

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In other words, you have no idea!

If you don't know the answer to a question, dont answer it!

Thanks :D

He was giving his opinon on what he thinks the price would be and probably using Microsofts past prices as why he said $300.00.

Nobody except Microsoft knows how much Vista will be when it hits retail. Hell Microsoft might not have even decided yet, who knows?

The immature people that pop up on this board all the time..........AHHHHHH....I wish they'd fall (or be pushed/thrown/while bound and gagged) of a cliff.

Here you go...If you have nothing useful to say except immature remarks...STFU

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Thats not what I heard, I thought I read somewhere that full screen apps will cause Windows to unload the DWM and the GFX card would then be available fully to full screen applications.

Correct. Microsoft has been working toward the goal of making Windows Vista behave like a game console when using fullscreen applications. Unnecessary use of the processor and memory is stopped in fullscreen mode (basically it transitions to "console" mode) so that the application performs better. For example, it could stop many services, it is said that the DWM (and thus, the function mapping) is stopped, etc. Microsoft is doing a lot of other things to make gaming on PCs better, but those details are beside the point.

The issue begins and ends with Microsoft's drivers (not ATI's or nVidia's drivers) in windowed applications - which is where the performance degradation is supposed to occur. Realistically speaking, the pure mapping of functions to other functions causes very little overhead on performance (they are simply using a different function, not executing two functions like many seem to believe, so the "50%" figures can be tossed in the "fabrication" pile.) It is not fair to say that performance on Vista will be degraded because XP only supported OpenGL 1.1 while Vista supports 1.4. There could be many performance improvements in the driver code and in the OpenGL library itself. Like mentioned earlier, fullscreen applications will also see an additional performance boost. It could be possible that OpenGL performance in Vista (with Microsoft's drivers) are improved in comparison to Windows XP's. It is important to not jump to conclusions, nobody truly knows about the OpenGL performance in Windows Vista.

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uhhh.. could this be a bad move my microsoft?  afterall, they rushed windows XP out the door too quick, and didn't add in any... THEMES!  well they added in a whole whopping 3.

December seems a little soon for Vista Beta 2 don't you think?  da well.. i hope microsoft doesn't rush this.

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They didn't add any themes on purpose. XP was late as it was.

Its late enough as it is, better to get it out on time.

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The issue begins and ends with Microsoft's drivers (not ATI's or nVidia's drivers) in windowed applications - which is where the performance degradation is supposed to occur. Realistically speaking, the pure mapping of functions to other functions causes very little overhead on performance (they are simply using a different function, not executing two functions like many seem to believe, so the "50%" figures can be tossed in the "fabrication" pile.) It is not fair to say that performance on Vista will be degraded because XP only supported OpenGL 1.1 while Vista supports 1.4. There could be many performance improvements in the driver code and in the OpenGL library itself. Like mentioned earlier, fullscreen applications will also see an additional performance boost. It could be possible that OpenGL performance in Vista (with Microsoft's drivers) are improved in comparison to Windows XP's. It is important to not jump to conclusions, nobody truly knows about the OpenGL performance in Windows Vista.

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This is not a vendor driver vs MS driver issue. The OpenGL performance is reduced because you can't have OpenGL and DX using the video card at the same time. One of the two must be emulated. MS is choosing to emulate OpenGL and allow AERO to have full control of the video card. People are speculating that there will be a 50% OpenGL performance drop because the OpenGL app can't use the video hardware for acceleration.

Try running Unreal Tournament in software rendering mode and you'll see the performrance hit.

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Correct. Microsoft has been working toward the goal of making Windows Vista behave like a game console when using fullscreen applications. Unnecessary use of the processor and memory is stopped in fullscreen mode (basically it transitions to "console" mode) so that the application performs better. For example, it could stop many services, it is said that the DWM (and thus, the function mapping) is stopped, etc. Microsoft is doing a lot of other things to make gaming on PCs better, but those details are beside the point.

Well, hope you are right... From the many quotes I've read, fullscreen will also be emulated, but I hope to be wrong.

This is not a vendor driver vs MS driver issue. The OpenGL performance is reduced because you can't have OpenGL and DX using the video card at the same time. One of the two must be emulated. MS is choosing to emulate OpenGL and allow AERO to have full control of the video card. People are speculating that there will be a 50% OpenGL performance drop because the OpenGL app can't use the video hardware for acceleration.

Yes, the issue is at the drivers, and their inability to execute both OGL and D3D calls simultaneously, but it has never been a real issue up to Vista. The probelm is MS has decided not to allow Ati/Nvidia try and fix this problem. That is what makes me mad about this emulation!

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I dont know, well i think everyone agrees that they would want a OS as much bug free as possible, so why do you moan at microsoft for being delayed, would you release a product early even if it is so unfinished, i wouldnt.....

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How often do you actually run OpenGL applications/games windowed?  The performance of a Windowed application running via OpenGL (or DX for that matter), I have always found to be of poorer performance anyway.

You might want to remember that statement when you finally upgrade to Vista because the rest of the world has :p

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to be honest i dont see the point of upgrading to vista straight away. Yeah i will eventually but im more than happy with XP and id rather let everyone else find the bugs than use an unstable OS. Lets face it XP wasnt worth it till sp1. Vista can wait till 2007/2008 before i even consider upgrading to it. I dont get what all the fuss is about :no:

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So what is supposed to be different in Beta 2? I mean besides fixing the bugs and known exploits.

Are they adding or removing any features or characteristics?

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Some of the reviews have hinted at various features, but much of it is secret at this point. But realize that MS intends Beta 2 to be feature-complete (or darned close; a few things are usually added even in the early RC stages), and that Beta 1 is basically a skeleton in terms of end-user goodness (most of Beta 1 was groundwork). So putting two and two together, I think B1 is quite misleading as far as even B2 is concerned. It's going to be a lot more than bug fixes if it's going to be feature complete.

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This is not a vendor driver vs MS driver issue. The OpenGL performance is reduced because you can't have OpenGL and DX using the video card at the same time. One of the two must be emulated. MS is choosing to emulate OpenGL and allow AERO to have full control of the video card. People are speculating that there will be a 50% OpenGL performance drop because the OpenGL app can't use the video hardware for acceleration.

Windows Graphic Foundation 2 (DX10) will have hardware acceleration. If OpenGL functions are being mapped to the equivalent function in DX10 then they should have hardware acceleration.

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Does that mean that every single new feature added to Vista will be in BETA 2?

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No it does not. New features could be added in the RC stage.

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He's wrong BTW, a final beta must have all features in because they need to be tested. A RC should contain nothing but bug fixes of the problems found during beta. What's the point in adding a NEW feature in an RC? The only possibility is that MS holds off on the new visual style because, frankly, they don't give a crap about people's suggestions concerning visual styles (as evidenced by Luna). But feature-wise, what you see in Beta 2 is the same feature-set you'll see in the Final. The only differences will be in stability and hopefully fewer bugs (though knowing MS, the Final will be buggy as hell anyway).

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He's wrong BTW, a final beta must have all features in because they need to be tested. A RC should contain nothing but bug fixes of the problems found during beta. What's the point in adding a NEW feature in an RC? The only possibility is that MS holds off on the new visual style because, frankly, they don't give a crap about people's suggestions concerning visual styles (as evidenced by Luna). But feature-wise, what you see in Beta 2 is the same feature-set you'll see in the Final. The only differences will be in stability and hopefully fewer bugs (though knowing MS, the Final will be buggy as hell anyway).

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Wrong. Features will continue to be added in interim builds between beta 2 and RC0. Beta 2 is slated to be near-feature complete, not absolutely complete

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