Microsoft Codename MAX


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>> Picasa2 << *cough* *cough*

anywayz still a nice application

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i dont think Picsa 2 can do the 3d view with reflections on the floor as Max can. ow as far as compariing it to phedo or what ever that otehr image app was Not a chance in hek Picsa compares

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Actually, this program will, in the future, run on any arcitecture. What matters is you have the WinFX runtime environment installed. Since WinFX (the environment) is still in beta, they dont have a build for x64 processors yet. This will change.

Actually, I think a lot of people are missing the point. For non-developers, this program may look like a "competing" product for Picasa. For developers who have looked at Avalon, this is a way of showing how incredibly easy it is to make an interface such as Microsoft Max, complete with all the animations, in minimal time. If you have ever taken a look at the Avalon programming model, you'd know it's a huge step in the future.

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Ehhh, no, not really true. There is an x64 version of WinFX, it's just a matter of making the program's code work on x64. I'm not really even sure what is in it that would cause it not to run on x64. There isn't much complex code that I see in the program anyway *shrug*

And yeah, this is definitely just a way to show off everything that WinFX offers. For the end user, it's not that useful of a program, and doesn't really do much more than Picasa, it's just showing off what can be done with the new technology they are rolling out. It's so amazingly easy to make a really good looking Avalon program.

Really now? I'd like to see you port that to Linux then or make a clone for linux as it looks interesting to try out but Im not installing Windows.

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I code in C# primarily, so I wouldn't be able to write something like that for Linux very easily. Anyway, I meant I could write a similar program, using WinFX, just as they had done. Loading pictures is easy, the reflections aren't hard in WinFX, so it's just a matter of writing a photo album. As said in the quote before, this is something that is extremely simple to make using WinFX.

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Actually, I think a lot of people are missing the point. For non-developers, this program may look like a "competing" product for Picasa. For developers who have looked at Avalon, this is a way of showing how incredibly easy it is to make an interface such as Microsoft Max, complete with all the animations, in minimal time. If you have ever taken a look at the Avalon programming model, you'd know it's a huge step in the future.

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How does this app show it's very easy to make pretty apps in minimal time?

For that to be answered, you'd have to know 1) the timeframe during this app was developed 2) the amount of devs they had on the job, and 3) their skill. Knowing it looks good and use Avalon simply isn't enough. They could have gone through hell to make it for all we know.

I've seen the Avalon development model with XAML and C#, and yes, it's a huge leap... in some direction. I'm still unsure if it's in the right one, as when your app grows, the XAML code quickly turns into a behemoth. Avalon is also no replacement for artistic skills (= expect many of a regular developer's apps with little UI guidelines like in the VS .NET UI editor to look like something the cat thrown up), and the regular C# programming remains.

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How does this app show it's very easy to make pretty apps in minimal time?

For that to be answered, you'd have to know 1) the timeframe during this app was developed 2) the amount of devs they had on the job, and 3) their skill. Knowing it looks good and use Avalon simply isn't enough. They could have gone through hell to make it for all we know.

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But those of us who are developers and follow everything in WinFX know that it doesn't take long to make something like this. It's just another demo they have made to show what can be done.

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But those of us who are developers and follow everything in WinFX know that it doesn't take long to make something like this. It's just another demo they have made to show what can be done.

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Hmm, OK, so where's the Avalon visual designer? I still haven't seen a good one. You can't seriously mean you're hacking raw XAML code and think it's going fast, and giving you a nice overview of how the app will look? I've used the WinFX package, but could find nothing like that included, even in beta shape. It's a perfect example of what would make a good use of a WYSIWYG editor too.

Also, is there some guides/libraries to make Avalon apps? Right now, you design *everything* on your own, starting out with basically a blank sheet, making pretty much all Avalon apps look incoherent, each with a different style, not to mention the time consuming part of that.

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Considering how much Avalon encompases, it would be extremely hard to make a visual designer in which you could just drag and drop certain elements and be done. Avalon gives you a way to draw graphics however you want. You can't really compare Avalon to something like regular win forms in previous program designs, it's more like writing actual DirectX or OpenGL code, where you use code to draw out all your shapes, pictures, cameras, etc. When you think of it like that, yes, it's much more simple than writing something like this using DirectX. It's not just a plain old form with buttons on it, it's an actual GUI that you have to create by yourself. When you think of it that way, while it's by no means going to be a SMALL amount of code to do something such as Max, it will however be easier than ever before.

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Oh, right, you're comparing to DirectDraw/Direct3D development?

Yes, in that case it may be easier. I was comparing to regular UI (i.e. WinForms) development.

I can agree on Avalon making it easier to develop 3D UI's than DirectDraw+Direct3D, but still placing it as far harder than general WinForms apps.

However, even if I was to dig deep in Avalon, I still don't get how Microsoft is going to make Avalon apps even remotely uniform in appearance. Consistency is a huge aspect in attractive applications. See Real Player for example, a tool you easily go "what the hell is this?!" with when you first see it. I can imagine the same reaction with an app where the developer wasn't the most artistically skilled guy in the world, and had put in a ton of "cool" 3D effect, where not even the button colors looked right. In Avalon, very little come for granted, very much is being hand-made thanks to non-existant designers, and I can only see that as a horrible disadvantage. Allowing users to draw graphics however they want? Yes, and you'll most likely see the side effects of that!

You need to keep in mind that Microsoft has a ton of resources, most likely put in use when developing this app to make it look good. I fear Avalon apps may get about the same variety as web sites in appearance, from horrible to stylish. :( Way too much unguided flexibility. At least WinForms tries to enforce a standard UI, especially the new designer in VS .NET 2005 and its guides.

Considering how much Avalon encompases, it would be extremely hard to make a visual designer in which you could just drag and drop certain elements and be done.

Yes, but it has to be far from impossible, with the XAML tree being a document object model, and Avalon itself already able to render dynamic apps. Compare to the dynamic DOM of a modern web browser like Firefox; it has a special designer mode to edit a page in real-time using its own engine.

Edited by Jugalator
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That program spent about 2 hours downloading the runtime amazingly slow and then started to install and asked to reboot. Upon rebooting it carried on with setup and couldn't find the damn files so setup failed. Now it seems it's gotta download it all again. Is there not a way to download the runtime seperately (and yes I saw the beta 1 runtime page).

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I had to run the setup thing about 3 times before it finally installed Max after WinFX, keep persevering.

Having not used Phodeo or w/e it's called, is everything that Max can do included in it?

I can't wait for a proper replacement to Picasa, while I do love it, I hate the way it handles folders.

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Well, yeah, that will definitely be a problem that will arise and there is really no way around it. There isn't much point in trying to stop it either, because people can always make a program look however they want by using legacy coding still. There are guidelines that are being published for developing programs for Vista, but they can never be more than suggestion. There will be ugly Avalon programs, and that's all there is to it. Just like there are ugly programs now, it will always be the case. Avalon just makes it easier and simpler to make it look good should you have the desire. Unfortunately you can never force people to make their apps look good haha.

As for the designer, sure, you could make something that would do some of the stuff, but a lot of it is just writing your own graphics. There is only so much they can do for you, the rest you have to write out the code for. Maybe some simple things like buttons, but even then you have to tell it what to do with the buttons, how to draw them, etc. They can only help you out with so much.

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Was totally slow here until I found a service called WinFX Font Cache was hogging CPU to the max.

Stopped it and disabled it, Max now runs smooth.

BTW anyone know of other Longhorn apps you can play with on XPSP2 with WinFX?

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So funny that today in this discussion about a lack of designer tools for Avalon, they're unveiling one? :)

https://www.neowin.net/comments.php?category=main&id=30398

I knew it had to happen eventually, but not this soon. ;)

Sparkle is pretty much exactly what I was talking about before.

Advanced object oriented designer generating XAML, 3D support with timelines and all!

I highly recommend watching this:

http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=115387

As for the designer, sure, you could make something that would do some of the stuff, but a lot of it is just writing your own graphics.

Yes, and that's Avalon's blessing and curse.

What I'm saying is just that WinForms is standardized; by default you have a certain look for every control you place. You don't even need to study UI recommendations. Well, we'll see how it turns out... I don't have my expectations set too high though, as few developers are artists, and a ton aren't working with any either. I can imagine Avalon apps looking worse than WinForms apps coming from those.

Hopefully these tools making it through now may help at least a bit though. Designer tools to paint UI's mean more time to tweak them to look good, and is the first essential step IMHO to make something more complex than the most basic of apps in time.

Edited by Jugalator
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Seems to be a decent program,

You must uninstall any previous Runtime to run .

Signing in with passport will not work with old runtime (1 or 2) installed.

To share others MUST have it installed too.

Most people do not get involved with uninstalling runtimes and installing anything other than a basic program.

The installation can be a bit confusing for a novice as it will install the new WinFX 3 (Takes some time even on a fast cpu)

before installing MAX.

MAX itself seems nice.

Just my opinion.....

Wax

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Codename Max might look quite fancy but I sure as hell ain't letting this thing go on my PC again. After installing both the WinFX components and Max (and then uninstalling it) the time it takes for any application to connect to a server is hellaciously long. (In other words, for instance in IE, the message 'Connecting to ...' displays for a long time.)

Thank God for automatic registry backups. :happy:

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