for or against spanking?

[samg]

You're going after the wrong people. Its some of the parents who need a damn good slap for letting there kids get away with things they shouldnt.

Smacking kids = bad

smacking chav parents and pikys = good.

[Whoa]

Are you serious? People deserve to go to hell for spanking their children?!?!? Let's not spank them, lets leave them locked up in their room for a few hours cause that's a lot better! Punishment is just that, it's not meant to be a good thing. I'm not talking about beating your kids until they go limp. There is nothing wrong with 1 or 2 spankings on the butt when you do something wrong. If spanking is child abuse then I guess making them do chores is forced labor! You need to rethink your views on a few things (if not everything).

This comment is what is wrong with the way people think and how they decide to raise their children (in most cases). If you honestly think having a sit-down with a 2,3,5 year old and explaining to them why their actions are wrong is going to do anything at all, you obviously have never been a parent. Children are not adults so do not treat them as if they are. If you think they can comprehend and process what you tell them and that they actually care (and/or take anything from it), you are sadly mistaken. .......... What works for 1 person may not work for another, just because someone chooses a different action does not make it wrong. I simply believe that spanking is nowhere near as harmful as people make it out to be as long as it's used as a form of DISCIPLINE.

I totally agree with these comments, some of you guys are making spanking seems like its a lot worst than it is. Talking/grounding doesnt alwasy work and like u_diddy said, little kids cant comprehend the things you said. But if talking works for you then great. I'm asian and where I come from spanking is standard. The concept of "grounding" is just funny to us. They just lay the smack down when necessary and not care about going to court for "child abuse". Yes there is a line between abuse and discipline but making spanking illegal is just rediculous.

[poorman]

Unfortunately, this doesn't work with all children and cannot be applied to all children (for a variety of reasons).

Please explain those reasons.

Spanking backlash. (Your Time/Health)(parents who spank their kids before age 2 can expect them to get into trouble at school, suggests a study in Pediatrics)(Brief Article) Sora Song.

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2004 Time, Inc.

Byline: Sora Song

Parents who spank their kids before age 2 can expect them to get into trouble at school, suggests a study in Pediatrics. Compared with kids who were never hit, white non-Hispanic toddlers who were spanked five times a week were four times as likely to have behavioral problems later. No significant link was found between spanking and later misbehavior in black and Hispanic children. --By Sora Song

The Humanist, March-April 2004 v64 i2 p45(1)

Parents may spank their children. (Worth Noting)(Brief Article) Karen Ann Gajewski.

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2004 American Humanist Association

* In a six-to-two decision in January 2004, the Canadian Supreme Court ruled that parents may spank their children. The ruling in a case, which challenged a section of Canada's criminal code, establishes guidelines as to what the courts will consider "appropriate." It said parents must not hit children under two years of age or over twelve, no objects may be used for punishment, and youngsters can't be hit on the head.

Adolescence, Fall 1994 v29 n115 p543(19)

Corporal punishment of adolescents by parents: a risk factor in the epidemiology of depression, suicide, alcohol abuse, child abuse, and wife beating. Murray A. Straus; Glenda Kaufman Kantor.

CONCLUSIONS

The results of this study, if replicated by longitudinal studies which do not have the limitations noted, suggest that use of corporal punishment by parents of adolescents is a risk factor for depression, suicide, alcohol abuse, physical abuse of children, and physical assault on wives. The sociopsychological processes which produced these effects need to be determined to provide a basis for treating persons suffering these consequences. For example, for some children, being hit by those they love and on whom they depend for their very existence, may be a traumatic event with consequences similar to other traumatizing events. Another possibility, and one suggested by a recent study, is that corporal punishment tends to create a feeling of helplessness and powerlessness (Straus & Gimpel, 1992). Perhaps even more important are the implications for primary prevention of physical and psychological injury. If, as suggested by other evidence, the harmful effects of corporal punishment apply to toddlers as well as teens (Sears, Maccoby, & Levin, 1957; Larzelere, 1986; Vissing et al., 1991), ending all use of spanking and other corporal punishment can make an important contribution to primary prevention of physical abuse of children and spouses, depression, suicide, and drinking problems. As is now the national policy in Sweden and several other countries (Deley, 1988; Haeuser, 1988), parents need to be unambiguously informed that spanking or other hitting of children and adolescents is never appropriate because, even though it may serve to correct an immediate problem, it places the child at risk for serious problems later in life.

1 The prevalence rate that follows the description of the procedure used to measure each psychosocial problem is for the subset of cases that had no missing data on any of the variables needed to test the model explaining that variable, as given in Table 1. Since each model included whether there was husband-to-wife violence (in order to control for confounding of that aspect of violence with corporal punishment), the subsets are for two-partner families. The resulting subsets have a slightly lower prevalence of psychosocial problems than were previously reported for some of these measures. For example, the rate of physical abuse of children is 11.2 per hundred for this subset of cases, compared to 11.8 for the entire sample of families with children, which included single-parent families which have higher rates of physical abuse.

[curme]

I've included a photo below of one of my sessions with our son, in case you would like to try the technique.

That's my nephew Cody! :woot: My brother John took that photo, then photoshopped for some contest. I always get a kick when I see it, it's like having someone famous in the family!

[cork1958]

It's not even a question of for or against. It's almost a "MUST!" I only say almost just so the nick picking politically correct wanna be's on here can't say quite so much about that comment. ;)

Half the problem with the world to day is lack of discipline as a child. I'm being VERY generous in saying only half the problem too!

[Raum]

Lack of discipline is a huge problem, but why do so many spanking advocates seem to think it's the end all be all of disciplining your child?

Like I said, my friends little brother who is spanked isn't improving at all. Physical restraint doesn't do a thing for them.

But really, either method you choose, spanking, grounding, taking away their food and water for a week....I think it's really important to explain to them as best you can for them to understand why they're being punished.

[Dick Montage]

I sort of agree with you cork, that the lack of discipline is a huge problem. But who is to say that spanking a child is discipline? There are other ways.

[ahhell]

Nothing wrong with a spanking. Kids need to learn that there are consequences to their actions. You only really need to spank a kid when they are really young and after that the threat of a spanking seems to work....at least it did to me.

Making your kid take a "timeout" does nothing.

[....]

Please...

It's almost blatently obvious once you hit the university phase who was raised properly as a kid and who wasnt. Clearly I cant generalize, and I'm sure that lots of kids get raised well without a whack every now and then, but come on. I was hit as a kid, and I deserved everything I got. It worked and it worked damn good. Imo, I'm much better off now because of it. I dont have any emotional scars or built up anger inside me because my parents had the balls to forcefully correct my stupidity. My best friends were all punished that way, and we all agree that it was very effective. I hug my parents all the time and we're very close as a family.

Look at the vast majority of teenagers today that came out of this new 'lets talk about it' style parenting. The ultimate test of how you raise your kids is how they end up when they're older. I'd bet a lot of money that the majority 1st year kids I see staggering out of bars or sleeping around werent exactly parented properly. Yes they're free to do their own thing, but their 'own thing' is a direct reflection on how they were raised.

Parenting becomes a lot easier when the support of a heathly family life is there. I read the other day that over 50% of all african-american kids are born out of wedlock. You want to know why society and its children seem messed up? Take a look at the their home life. Divorce rates are through the roof, parents are both out working long hours etc. It all contributes a heck of a lot more to how your children grow up than if you smack them or not.

100% spot on. Great post.

[u_diddy]

Please explain those reasons.

Oh....just off the top of my head.....

1) A poor relationship with parents (and consequently a lack of respect) due to many families being 2 income families where neither parent spends "quality" time with their children due to obvious time constraints or fatigue.

2) Talk-therapy will never work if consequences are not consistent . Any signs of inconsistency are easily manipulated by children. Pretty hard to manipulate a swat on the butt though.

3) Talk-therapy is age-dependent and specific to intelligence, maturity and geographical location (where an outburst occurs plays a huge role in what kids "believe" they can get away with). If a child cannot process what you are telling them, do you think it will do anything to change behavioural issues?

[theyarecomingforyou]

There appears to be a lot of snobbery in this thread... smacking of a child is not confined to lower classes and it is ignorant and misguided to assume that. It is true that many of the lower classes smack their children due to their own anger, rather than as a form of discipline, but why should that tarnish image of decent parents that want the best for their child? Smacking should only be used as a small part of a larger philosophy of discipline but I believe that it is perfectly valid. Having experienced it personally I believe it to be a very good thing and I of course will use it to raise my own children... afterall, life is about experience and it is only right to maintain things that you think are right, good and proper. If you weren't smacked and believe that helped you then it is your right to continue that with your children. I don't believe that smacking is necessary for a child to be raised properly, obviously, but I believe it can help. Choice and freedom - the strengths of humanity.

I believe that it would be a bad idea to make smacking illegal. That just takes society further down the route of a nanny state, with countless academics deciding what people can and can't do. What benefit does life offer if you have to behave, act, think and speak in a predefined manner? Afterall, that's the way things are headed. Smacking as a form of discipline is not child abuse - it is done in the interests of the child. Smacking a child in anger, however, is abuse and deserves no place in society. Equating the two things as one and the same thing is foolish and narrowminded.

[poorman]

^ you're completely wrong. you say that you will continue spanking with your children. do you realize this is cyclical violence passed down from generation to generation? thank god there are laws against people like you who believe that hitting your child equates to 'choice and freedom.' would you hit your child if you were also not hit as a child?

you're wrong too on the idea that this issue then gives the nanny state, that's the dillingham flaw in reverse. those academics have a reason to do this research. did you read anything i posted above about the research done by Straus and Kantor? how can you not smack a child in anger? calling us snobs because we care about how children develop is making me wonder why you would say such a thing? Laws are put in place to restrict behavior that society deems are bad. You say that this restricts your freedom. You think that being free means doing whatever you want, looking out for number one (yourself). Things are not headed this way. The research shows that spanking is being cracked down upon.

Please define what you mean by saying 'in the interests of the child.'

So everyone who disagrees with you is fooling and narrowminded? Or are they just the ones who don't differentiate between 'good hit' and 'bad hit.'

Can you please tell us what a 'good hit' should be as defined under law and what a 'bad hit' should be defined as under law, if you had it your way?

[shift4]

So everyone who disagrees with you is fooling and narrowminded? Or are they just the ones who don't differentiate between 'good hit' and 'bad hit.'

How can you say he's wrong and yet think you're entitled to a opinion? No one in this thread has been wrong, not even fred666 with his elitist attitude. This is a opinionated thread, there's bound to be dispute and it's pointless trying to explain your reasoning and hoping to change someone else's mind.

Personally, I believe in spanking once in awhile. According to what you posted, spanking a child under 2 can be bad for them.. do I believe in spanking under 2? Hell no. What would that accomplish? Once they're old enough to reason and understand what they're being spanked for (maybe around 6), it can help teach them right from wrong. Eventually they learn to not do things wrong for fear of being spanked.

Spanking isn't for everyone but some kids could definately learn from it. You know those kids that get sent off to boot camp for a day on TV? The ones that are like 8.. those kids could have definately been helped by a good spanking once in awhile.

Spanking doesn't have to be done brutally; abusively. Wait until you calm down, explain to them what they did wrong and why not to do it, have them get over your knee and give them a good smack a few times with a belt. You don't go all out and smack them as hard as you can or do it in a furious rage. That would be more abuse than discipline.

At most, spanking should only be done a few times and only for stuff actually deserving of it. If your child gets into a furious rage and throws a remote through your window, good luck trying to "talk it out."

After reading this, do I expect you to agree with me? Hell no. Spanking isn't for everyone and some kids turn out decent without it.. but for the kids that don't get spanked and turn out horrible, they would have greatly benefited from it.

Edited May 15, 2006 by shift4

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Wait until you calm down, explain to them what they did wrong and why not to do it, have them get over your knee and give smack them with a few times with a belt.

In Canada, you would have your children removed from your house by the Children's Aid Society for their own protection. We do consider that child abuse (both legally and as a society).

[theyarecomingforyou]

^ you're completely wrong. you say that you will continue spanking with your children. do you realize this is cyclical violence passed down from generation to generation? thank god there are laws against people like you who believe that hitting your child equates to 'choice and freedom.' would you hit your child if you were also not hit as a child?

Cyclical violence is the idea that someone that is treated violently by their parents will behave violently to their children. My point was that I believe smacking is a good and helpful form of discipline and is something that I want to emulate and pass on, as part of a philosophy on discipline. It's a choice, not an unconcious result. Manipulating my words won't help your arguement.

Also, I never said anyone that doesn't agree with me is foolish or narrowminded - my point was that smacking as a form of discipline is different to child abuse, which it is. Now it may be argued that smacking a child is bad for their mental health, that has been put forward by many academics/researchers, however it is not abuse to want the best for your child. Again, stop trying to manipulate my words.

those academics have a reason to do this research.

At the end of the day you can produce research that supports smacking and you can produce research that calls for it to be made illegal. Much like with the everything... you have scientists that deny the very idea of global warming and you have scientists strongly opposed to the theory of evolution. There are also a number of researchers that couldn't care less about what they're researching and only care for the grant they receive for their work.

how can you not smack a child in anger?

Off the top of my head... a child steps out into the road when there is a vehicle approaching - the parent then grabs the kid off the road (to protect their safety), explains that it was dangerous and gives them a smack. The child then sees that as something that is dangerous and prohibited and that will stick with them until they are old enough to understand the dangers for themselves. Could that have been done without smacking? Sure. However, smacking reinforces the idea that actions have consequences and gives a child boundaries to work within.

As for good hit / bad hit... the benefit of the doubt should rest with the parents, with the government stepping in when a child is put in danger. If social workers need more powers to take kids away from abusive parents then that should be considered but maintaining that smacking, no matter how minor, is abuse is a step too far, imo. Rather than innocent until proven guilty you are assuming all smacking is malicious, which is clearly not the case. I disagree with the government micromanaging every aspect of people's lives.

[u_diddy]

Laws are put in place to restrict behavior that society deems are bad.

Laws are put in place by the government. They are not always an accurate representation of societal beliefs.

[Gabureiru]

Haven't read all the replies, but I will says this:

Just look at what is the point of view of actual (modern) parenting skills, they don't permit a child to be reprimanded for their acts, be it by physical, verbal or other kind of discipline, they just call it abuse. Do you think that is directly related to the ongoing violence and all out crazy behavior kids have today?

Children with knives, children with guns, children abusing sexually other children. In the past parents not only spank their kids, but put them through some harsh discipline methods, the kids learned that doing bad things had bad consequences.

I'm for disciplining kids, and the punishment should fit the crime. The only way to not spank the kids is to teach them first with words, and examples on how to behave, you can?t also expect your kids to have good manners and to act like a good person if you don?t teach them how, and set a good example.

[u_diddy]

In Canada, you would have your children removed from your house by the Children's Aid Society for their own protection. We do consider that child abuse (both legally and as a society).

Do you speak for all of Canada? I'm from Canada and your comments make me laugh. It makes you sound as if everyone in Canada is in agreement with you.

[uniacidz]

As a rat of a child and teenager, i was spanked, and i thank my parents for doing it.

This crap about talking to your child or punishing in other ways, man what a crock. If i was 'punished' in other ways, in no way in hell would i have turned the corner into a good lil boy.

My parents knew the difference between discipline and abuse, and never in my life was i ever abused, and i plan to use the very same methods of discipline as a last resort to my children if i have to in the future.

[betasp]

I spank my child... sometimes. Every child is different and they must be taught discipline in different ways. There is only so much "talking" you can do to a 3 year old. They can't rationalize. You have to use other techiques to mold behavior.

I can say that, in my experiences, parents that do spank (not beat) their children tend to end up with a better product than those parents that do not. That is based off my moral structure that dictates to me how a person should act.

[SMELTN]

I am all for spanking. BUT I am a firm believer in using the hand instead of a belt, switch, 2x4 or anything else. I try to avoid spanking if at all possible, I try the talking to, send to room for timeout before anything else, but if it comes down to it I spank my children, 99% of the time its 1 firm open handed slap on the butt and we are done. But over the years my children have now gotten scared of it (ages 4 and 7 yrs) and now most of the time all I have to do is raise my hand as if I was going to spank them and they stop what they were doing, grab there butt and start appologizing. Sometimes it bothers me that they fear me in this way but other times I like it because it means I don't actually have to spank them.

Our parents were right when they said "This is going to hurt me just as much as you". Because it does hurt to spank them, not my hand but my heart..

What I do NOT like is people that spank there children in the middle of stores.. I have told mine before, "If you don't stop we are going to the bathroom" and I have carried them to the bathroom in a large store, given them a spanking, let them stop crying, whipe their tears discuss what happened and then we walk back out as if nothing ever happened.

I have given a note to the teachers at school that it is ok to spank my children if they need it. BUT I have also made it clear to my children that they WILL get spankings from there teachers if they are bad, BUT that if it is excessive they need to let me know, and are to let me know ANYTIME they get a spanking and for what reason. If I question it, I will contact the teacher.. As of now they have yet to get a spanking from school. (they are still in the red, yellow, green stages of discipline school)

[Bamagrad03]

First, I couldnt give the first crap about what some elitist "social circle" thinks about how I raise my children...or how I was raised for that matter. I have had PLENTY of experiences with the wealthy and the uber politcally correct people in this world....those who consider themselves "nuanced" above reproach. And I have to say that for the most part, their kids are some of the rudest, crudest, and most disrespectful people i have EVER known.

They are SO wrapped up in doing what is "socially acceptable" that they are immune to the fact that they are raising a generation of punk kids who have no regard for themselves or others. But as long as their cocktail buddies and bridge partners dont scorn them for punishing their children...life is good.

I was raised in a middle class family that believed in spanking. It was NOT, however, the only form of punishment. And each spanking was ALWAYS explained to me. I am college educated, a working professional, and what I consider to be a good person. Ive never been arrested, never acted out violently, nor have i had a history of problems.

Conversely, I know many people who were raised in a home where spanking was a big no no. And the majority of those people that I know have had a littany of problems that are reflected daily in their lifestyle...be it drug use, lack of self control, lack of emotional capability, and possibly the most common problem: TOTAL disrespect for their parents.

Ironically, MANY of the child psychologists and shrinks i know who speak endlessly on the evils of spanking...have TERRIBLE children.

The problem comes when people dont realize the disjoint between spanking and abuse. Modern teachings and practices skew their "empirical backing" with numbers based on abusive homes. They group in homes where children are beaten without rhyme or reason with the ones who spank...because it supports the philosophy under which they operate (or under which their book is written).

So yes, i will ignore all the books now that say spanking is wrong or "declasse"...because frankly, I see where the current generation of kids is headed...and it aint pretty. Im 25 years old and in my lifetime ive seen a DRASTIC change in the behavior of children. A lot of it has to do with people trying to raise their kids in a politically correct manner. How many columbine type school shootings did we have in the 1950s?

[theyarecomingforyou]

I am all for spanking. BUT I am a firm believer in using the hand instead of a belt, switch, 2x4 or anything else.

Obviously. A hand can inflict a huge amount of pain, particularly in the eyes of a child - I would consider using any implement as abuse.

What I do NOT like is people that spank there children in the middle of stores.. I have told mine before, "If you don't stop we are going to the bathroom" and I have carried them to the bathroom in a large store, given them a spanking, let them stop crying, whipe their tears discuss what happened and then we walk back out as if nothing ever happened.

Also, in the case of children misbehaving in a store, it is often easier to punish the child by removing priviledges, like toys or TV (watching a family TV... I don't believe a child should have a TV in their room). The important thing is being willing to follow through any threat that you make, otherwise children just see through the idle threats they are.

[lucifuge]

The problem comes when people dont realize the disjoint between spanking and abuse. Modern teachings and practices skew their "empirical backing" with numbers based on abusive homes. They group in homes where children are beaten without rhyme or reason with the ones who spank...because it supports the philosophy under which they operate (or under which their book is written).

So yes, i will ignore all the books now that say spanking is wrong or "declasse"...because frankly, I see where the current generation of kids is headed...and it aint pretty. Im 25 years old and in my lifetime ive seen a DRASTIC change in the behavior of children. A lot of it has to do with people trying to raise their kids in a politically correct manner. How many columbine type school shootings did we have in the 1950s?

QFT.

I wonder...when, specifically, was spanking deemed universally no-no in Canada? :whistle:

[Brandon]

I am a childcare provider at my church on thursdays for kids ages 9mo-7 years for when parents have classes. A few months ago for about 5 weeks straight, we had a 7 year old boy come and wouldnt cooperate with us. He would go around knocking down toys, grabbing and kicking everyone (including me and the other 3 supervisors), just a violent kid.

We first tried to talk with him but hed just walk away and continue it.

Then raising our voice to get him to realize we were serious

Then his mother tried to get him to stop and he wouldnt (of course his mother was like "billy cut it out" and that was it)

Theres a time like that where spanking the kid would get him to stop it. We eventually had to prohibit him from coming back because he was so much trouble