lol911 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I think we'll all find out if the 360's GPU is DirectX 10 capable when Crysis comes to the 360 :devil: It's not coming to the 360, though, that was a false rumour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 So Sharack by your logic, why wouldnt the X360 and the Xenos GPU be any different from a normal PC and graphics card?Developers write games using the APIs supplied by Microsoft which allow features on the GPU to be fully used ATI have custom drivers which allow the GPU to be accessed by these APIs and in turn execute native calls in the GPU There is no difference therefore in the way a developer would write for Xenos as opposed to any other graphics card. However, if I have missed anything (and its possible) then please correct me so I'll understand it better You are correct in your assertions of what an API is for. So you can write an application for non-specific hardware based on the API and it would run if the API supported it. However, we are discussing the XBox 360 which is specific hardware. When programming for specific hardware you have the benefit of knowing exactly what that hardware is capable of and what the instruction set is for that hardware. I am sure that Microsoft has created an API to simplify the developers jobs...i am just speculating all of this here btw. And I am also sure that this developer's API resembles DirectX as it is all developed by Microsoft. However, (and I'm starting to sound like a broken record), because the X360 is a specific piece of hardware what exactly would the "Direct X" technology be applied for? DirectX is for Windows so developers can target DirectX as a platform to communicate for a plethora of hardware combinations. This complication does not exist for the xbox 360. So again, I say, DirectX is a Windows based thing and does not directly apply to the XBox 360. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 In the end it is really just a bunch of semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 shadrack, you're totally right but i think also missing the point a couple ppl here are trying to make, me included. the 360 IS a PC. as ramesees said, what's exactly keeping anyone from loading up an OS and DirectX on the old gal? i don't know for a fact, but willing to state that nothing is. therefore, there's no inherent physical barrier keeping DX10 off the 360. if it meets the base specs then it's good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 shadrack, you're totally right but i think also missing the point a couple ppl here are trying to make, me included. the 360 IS a PC. as ramesees said, what's exactly keeping anyone from loading up an OS and DirectX on the old gal? i don't know for a fact, but willing to state that nothing is.therefore, there's no inherent physical barrier keeping DX10 off the 360. if it meets the base specs then it's good to go. Heh. I understand what you are saying. Although, one thing is keeping you from getting DX10 on the 360 and that is Microsoft. You would have a better chance at getting OpenGL working on the 360 in your scenario :p. Oh yeah..but as far as comparing the xbox 360 graphics capabilities to what pc equivalent graphics card, it would have to be a DX10 card. So yeah..sorry to drive that so far off topic :s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 off topic? made the thread more interesting! additionally i guess we can agree the 360's like a high end 7900 to maybe the 8800GTS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneKnee Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 off topic? made the thread more interesting! additionally i guess we can agree the 360's like a high end 7900 to maybe the 8800GTS. Higher than that, did you forget about it's memory bandwidth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal0hcine Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 ATI said themselves it is more comparable to an R600/700. Cant find article as I am lazy but its on the net somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToneKnee Posted January 31, 2007 Share Posted January 31, 2007 ATI said themselves it is more comparable to an R600/700.Cant find article as I am lazy but its on the net somewhere. It's based off the R600, or should I say that the R600 is based off it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 higher than the 8800GTS in terms of pixel pushing/texture filling numbers? if that's the case i'm a happy camper. i doubt it tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Heres the thing though. the GPU only has to render in 1280x720, hardly HD compared to PC's with 1650x1050. Its all about the hardware upscaler in it which makes it look pretty on that 51" 1080p LCD you bought me for xmas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 hold on, 360 supports 1920X1080. you're saying that's not a true res but rather upscaled? what's the difference? don't open-market GPU's upscale the same way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 hold on, 360 supports 1920X1080. you're saying that's not a true res but rather upscaled? what's the difference? don't open-market GPU's upscale the same way? yes, the UI is the full 1920x1080. Recently, MS showed a mysterious chip in the motherboard to be a hardware scaler - something which will up or down convert the resolution. Basically, the 360GPU will render almost all games at 1280x720 internally - if the selected resolution is 720p, it will then output it. But if it is 480i, 1080i or 1080p, it will then send the video through this chip and it will convert it to the correct resolution so it will not be blurry or stretched PC GPUs dont have this. They render something in 1024x768, it outputs in that resolution, something at 1680x1050, it outputs in that. Not saying that a hardware scaler might not be a future option, especially in mid-end cards where people could use ultra-high-res LCDs and still get decent performance from their GPU. Basically with a hardware scaler like the 360 has, it can make mid-resolution images look true HD without looking FPS or having to cut on details like a PC would without it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skase Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 yes, the UI is the full 1920x1080. Recently, MS showed a mysterious chip in the motherboard to be a hardware scaler - something which will up or down convert the resolution. Basically, the 360GPU will render almost all games at 1280x720 internally - if the selected resolution is 720p, it will then output it. But if it is 480i, 1080i or 1080p, it will then send the video through this chip and it will convert it to the correct resolution so it will not be blurry or stretchedPC GPUs dont have this. They render something in 1024x768, it outputs in that resolution, something at 1680x1050, it outputs in that. Not saying that a hardware scaler might not be a future option, especially in mid-end cards where people could use ultra-high-res LCDs and still get decent performance from their GPU. Basically with a hardware scaler like the 360 has, it can make mid-resolution images look true HD without looking FPS or having to cut on details like a PC would without it Wait, you can only equal or be less then the original content. Wouldn't a hardware upscaler work like resampling a 72dpi image to 300dpi in photoshop. The quality doesnt really get much better from the source. So even though it renders in 1024x768, and upscales it to 50000x10000, you will still get the average quality of 1024x768 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Wait, you can only equal or be less then the original content. Wouldn't a hardware upscaler work like resampling a 72dpi image to 300dpi in photoshop. The quality doesnt really get much better from the source.So even though it renders in 1024x768, and upscales it to 50000x10000, you will still get the average quality of 1024x768 Not if you can apply the correct amounts of AF and FSAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerhkjp Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Wait, you can only equal or be less then the original content. Wouldn't a hardware upscaler work like resampling a 72dpi image to 300dpi in photoshop. The quality doesnt really get much better from the source.So even though it renders in 1024x768, and upscales it to 50000x10000, you will still get the average quality of 1024x768 You speak the truth, but that's in an ideal world. Like DVD players with upscaling, having the upscaler on the playback device can have its benefits. The primary reason for better quality is that TV upscalers weren't that great. Also, before HDMI, TV's had to work with degraded analog signals, whereas the playback device has access to the raw digital data. Back to topic, in an interview with a capcom programmer, he comments that the vertex performance of the 360 competes very well with the 8800 series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neoadorable Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 thanks for explaining the upscaling. and according to what gunner said, developers should have little cause for concern for the next couple of years in terms of getiing more visuals from the 360. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Live Veteran Posted February 1, 2007 Veteran Share Posted February 1, 2007 That is NOT true. Well, not for all games. Every 360 game can render at 480p and 720p, no scaling involved. Some games can also render at 1080i or even 1080p. If they can't, then it is rendered at 720p and upscaled. But the GPU can certainly do 1080p. For example, Lost Planet renders at 1080p, no scaling at all. The nice part about the scaler is that if you set your output to 1080p in the 360 dashboard, EVERYTHING is output at that resolution. Sometimes it's native, sometimes it's scaled. But it's always consistently going to be 1080p. You know, unlike some other consoles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerhkjp Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 That is NOT true. Well, not for all games.Every 360 game can render at 480p and 720p, no scaling involved. Some games can also render at 1080i or even 1080p. If they can't, then it is rendered at 720p and upscaled. But the GPU can certainly do 1080p. For example, Lost Planet renders at 1080p, no scaling at all. The nice part about the scaler is that if you set your output to 1080p in the 360 dashboard, EVERYTHING is output at that resolution. Sometimes it's native, sometimes it's scaled. But it's always consistently going to be 1080p. You know, unlike some other consoles... I don't think anyone's arguing that that isn't the case. Also, according to the interview with capcom programmers here, lost planet renders at 720p, although that might have changed at the last minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septimus Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Since the update I heard also that Lost Planet is true 1080P if the console is set to it. As to the DirectX issue, the GPU has some properties available to it of DX10, but the DX/XNA whatever you want to call it the 360 uses is a set of libraries on the game disc, not in the EPROM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lol911 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Xbox360 renders like a tomato, potato, tomata, potata? :D How can Capcom change from rendering at 720p to native 1080p at the last minute, though - is it really that simple? Wouldn't it affect performance dramatically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynnoj Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Lost Planet is/was the first 1080p game, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menge Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 thing is. if they're rendering at 720p with FSAA, then they already have implemented Tiling (because if you want to use the "free as in beer" FSAA that the ATI chip provides, you need to tile the frame, since a full 720p framebuffer doesn't fit on the 10MB of ERAM in the chip - for more details, search about PGR3 not being full 720p). if they have Tiling, they can easily just change the resolution to 1080p and tile a bit more slices without a huge performance penalty (10%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrack Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I'm pretty sure that if a game says it supports 1080i on the back of the packaging then it will render in 1920x1080 (p or i). I remember reading in a few places that up until the video output there is no difference between 1080i or 1080p. That being said, my monitor that I'm playing X360 on supports 1920x1080. Gears of War definitely looks different between 720p and 1080p and I don't think it is just upscaling. If it were just upscaling then there would be no difference in the image between 720p and 1080p on my monitor. But I can see a difference. But I definitely prefer the 720p setting over the 1080p setting because when I set it to 1080p the Anti-Aliasing goes to poop. I'd rather have higher AA and lower res then higher res and lower AA (for the most part). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Live Veteran Posted February 1, 2007 Veteran Share Posted February 1, 2007 Lost Planet says 1080p on the packaging, which means that resolution is supported natively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts