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HD-DVD: What effect will crazy deals have on format war?

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Jason S.    1,503
Last I looked Sony wasn't the only company producing Blu-Ray players. Toshiba on the other hand pretty much has a monopoly on HD DVD players. The reason prices are not dropping on Blu-Ray players is because companies exist to make a profit. Samsung is not going to produce a Blu-Ray player simply to take a loss on every player sold. That's not a very smart business strategy for a CE manufacturer. Toshiba is dropping prices and taking a loss on all HD DVD players sold at $99 because they're the one's who are getting the license fees for HD DVD discs. They can't continue to sell players at $99 indefinately. Sony isn't any more greedy than Toshiba.

the $99 A2 deal was awesome, yet is immaterial in any argument. it was one day.

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giantpotato    296
somehow they fit Gods & Generals on HD-DVD, and it's over 4hrs long.

Remember, there's plenty of BD movies on SL discs. some of the earliest releases were.

Also, how is HD-DVD technically inferior simply for the single issue of less GBs? last i read, BDs Profile 1.1 just went into effect. and BD's profiles wont even match HD-DVDs until 2.0. So how is BD superior again?

BD players are very expensive. Heck, that new Profile 1.1 Panasonic player wont even have onboard bitstream decoding or and ethernet port, yet will still cost $500. Blu-Ray disc production has incredibly low yields.

hmm...

If you'll read reviews of Gods & Generals you'll see it has sub-par video quality, and it's a quite a bit shorter than Return of the King EE, and lacks lossless audio, most likely due to space restrictions.

There were plenty of BD movies on SL discs because the space wasn't needed. A single layer BD is very close in size to a dual layer HD DVD. If a movie ~100min long there's no need to make a dual-layer disc if it fits on a single layer. Longer movies will no doubt need both layers in order to have quality video.

Can you give me an up-to date source which shows me BD's have low production yields, and better yet, show me how this affects customers?

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PeterTHX    422
somehow they fit Gods & Generals on HD-DVD, and it's over 4hrs long.

God & Generals HD DVD review

Incredibly soft looking. Sounds like something was overcompressed.

Remember, there's plenty of BD movies on SL discs. some of the earliest releases were.

Like X-MEN 3 and Ice Age 2. Incredible looking & sounding discs BTW.

Also, how is HD-DVD technically inferior simply for the single issue of less GBs? last i read, BDs Profile 1.1 just went into effect. and BD's profiles wont even match HD-DVDs until 2.0. So how is BD superior again?

For the movies themselves, BD has a bandwidth of 54Mbps. HD DVD is 36Mbps (video+audio+features+subtitles, etc). The latest Pixar features on BD encoded in MPEG4 AVC routinely have bitrates greater than 35Mbps for the video alone, plus uncompressed 5.1 PCM with 24 bit resolution. All things HD DVD cannot do. The "profiles" you speak of nobody really gives a crap about (except HD DVD fanboys who will lose the last trump card of their format). 300 still sold over 2:1 in BD's favor despite the HD DVD having more extra features.

BD players are very expensive. Heck, that new Profile 1.1 Panasonic player wont even have onboard bitstream decoding or and ethernet port, yet will still cost $500. Blu-Ray disc production has incredibly low yields.

Been on AVS lately? The same AVS that had to shut down their HD disc forums because of all the FUD and misinformation going around? BD production yields for 50GB discs are between 80-90%. Nearly every BD release lately are on BD50. Even the Pixar shorts collection, which is 25 mins long.

You hit in on the head: Panasonic. You can also buy a Samsung player. Or a Pioneer. Maybe a Philips. Sharp's player is available now. Soon Denon, Yamaha, Mitsubishi, and Marantz.

What "choice" do you have in HD DVD? Not to mention NO ONE will put out a HD DVD player while Toshiba is pricing these things to give away. Companies want to make money.

HD DVD won't win because of their name either. HD DVD = DVD player with HDMI you hook up to an HDTV. BD = new format with more storage, better picture & audio.

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ctebah    3,161

so the hd disc forum on avs was shut down because of the FUD.

funny, aren't all of boz's proof links pointing to avs?

hahaha.

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PeterTHX    422
I have no idea why the supports of BD still rooting for it. Come on Guys! its backed by Sony! Here's Sony's record for your reference:

>snip<

Add BD to this list and just move on ... buy a HD-DVD player.

You left out 3.5" floppy disc and...

COMPACT DISC.

Sony backs DVD too. Guess you don't have a DVD player.

You also leave out Panasonic, Pioneer, Apple, Dell, Mitsubishi, Denon, Yamaha, Samsung, LG, Sharp, Philips are all behind the BD format.

Only *Toshiba* is behind the HD DVD format. Why buy something only supported by ONE manufacturer? You like hardware monopolies?

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mattmatik    76
HD DVD won't win because of their name either. HD DVD = DVD player with HDMI you hook up to an HDTV. BD = new format with more storage, better picture & audio.

Uhhh...hahahahha!

I mean, where the hell did you come up with that? That is just plain, ol' fashioned ignorance. Good Lord. It's fine to make arguments for or against but holy hell, that was beyond stupid.

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NateB1    75
You left out 3.5" floppy disc and...

COMPACT DISC.

Sony backs DVD too. Guess you don't have a DVD player.

You also leave out Panasonic, Pioneer, Apple, Dell, Mitsubishi, Denon, Yamaha, Samsung, LG, Sharp, Philips are all behind the BD format.

Only *Toshiba* is behind the HD DVD format. Why buy something only supported by ONE manufacturer? You like hardware monopolies?

It's better than license fee + movie monopoly.

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giantpotato    296
It's better than license fee + movie monopoly.

You realize HD DVD also has a license fee right? And nobody is going to have a movie monopoly, unless one company completely buys every single movie studio in existence.

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NateB1    75
God & Generals HD DVD review

Been on AVS lately? The same AVS that had to shut down their HD disc forums because of all the FUD and misinformation going around? BD production yields for 50GB discs are between 80-90%. Nearly every BD release lately are on BD50. Even the Pixar shorts collection, which is 25 mins long.

Dead. Wrong.

In the article, posted 10/2/2007:

?With regard to BD 50, yields have increased steadily and are consistently between 75% and 79%,? said Bob Hurley, executive VP of sales and marketing at Sony DADC.

Compare this to HD-DVD's yield of 95%+. Now you tell me which one is cheaper to produce.

Fact: Sony won't sell any Blu-Ray players for under $399 this holiday season

If there are more $99 deals, and a couple hundred thousand stand-alone HD-DVD players are sold, I would think WB would consider moving to HD-DVD exclusive. If so, then HD-DVD is virtually guaranteed to win.

Oh, and you conveniently left out this quote from your source:

Presented on HD DVD and Blu-ray using identical 1080p/VC-1 transfers,

It looks like the original source is to blame, not the transfers. Perhaps it was a bad transfer. All I know is that King Kong, which is 3 hrs., looks absolutely fantastic. Planet Earth, which is also about 3 hrs per DVD, looks amazing too.

You realize HD DVD also has a license fee right? And nobody is going to have a movie monopoly, unless one company completely buys every single movie studio in existence.

Sony owns multiple movie studios. Toshiba does not. Toshiba cannot force Universal to stay with their format. Sony, since it owns the movie studios, can force them to continue to use Blu-Ray, even when the market says otherwise.

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Shadrack    601

I've seen top of the line HD-DVD player and Blu-ray player on a nice 1080p 60" HDTV through HDMI. I could not see or hear any quality difference what-so-ever. I already have an HD-DVD player, but if I were to make the decision again I'd still go with HD-DVD. Who wants to pay 2x more for essentially the same thing?

The only thing, IMHO, that Blu-ray has over HD-DVD is size and the differences in studio support. Blu-ray is also advertising at least twice as much as HD-DVD is. I always see "available on Bluray" on TV commercials. Rarely do I see "available on HDDVD..." Advertisement may make up for the cost difference.

Who knows?

At the same time, I think there is a good possibility that neither format will win and just co-exist until the next thing comes out...

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Jason S.    1,503
God & Generals HD DVD review

Incredibly soft looking. Sounds like something was overcompressed.

HD DVD won't win because of their name either. HD DVD = DVD player with HDMI you hook up to an HDTV. BD = new format with more storage, better picture & audio.

I mentioned nothing about the movie's PQ. i merely said they fit it on a 30GB disc. theyd have no trouble fitting LOTR on a 30GB disc either.

the last sentence is complete brainwashing. put any coexisting BD or HD-DVD side-by-side and you will not hear or see any difference. hell, many studios release movies that use the same Master recording and same encoding.

come to think of it, this topic is way off base. there needs to be a whole subsection devoted to HD-DVD vs. BD. perhaps we can get back to the OP instead of bickering. no one is convincing anyone else. it's like religion.

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PeterTHX    422

Who's dead wrong?

Not Only Sony Makes BD50's

Singulus, Technicolor, Cinram, Panasonic, all make BD50's.

From the article:

The production of Blu-ray discs is now continuously ramping up. Dedicated manufacturing equipment is available and the process is well understood,resulting in high manufacturing yields of at least 80% to more than 90%.

In the article, posted 10/2/2007:

Compare this to HD-DVD's yield of 95%+. Now you tell me which one is cheaper to produce.

Price per gigabyte HD DVD is actually more expensive. Not to mention combo discs which are up to a DOLLAR more each than a BD50!

Fact: Sony won't sell any Blu-Ray players for under $399 this holiday season

So? How many iPods did Apple sell? Was it the cheapest MP3 player? Not by a long shot.

SOFTWARE sells hardware. Spider-Man 3, Pirates 3, Pixar, Disney, Simpsons, Die Hard, Superbad: all BD exclusive.

If there are more $99 deals, and a couple hundred thousand stand-alone HD-DVD players are sold, I would think WB would consider moving to HD-DVD exclusive. If so, then HD-DVD is virtually guaranteed to win.

WB won't support a hardware monopoly. Did you know in some states Toshiba can't sell their player legally at this price because of anti-dumping laws?

Sony owns multiple movie studios. Toshiba does not. Toshiba cannot force Universal to stay with their format. Sony, since it owns the movie studios, can force them to continue to use Blu-Ray, even when the market says otherwise.

Sony owns Disney? 20th Century Fox? News to me.

For the record, Sony owns Columbia/Tri-Star pictures and has a share of MGM. 20th Century Fox controls the MGM catalog for video though.

Universal was paid to remain HD DVD exclusive, just as Paramount was.

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giantpotato    296
Dead. Wrong.

In the article, posted 10/2/2007:

Compare this to HD-DVD's yield of 95%+. Now you tell me which one is cheaper to produce.

Fact: Sony won't sell any Blu-Ray players for under $399 this holiday season

If there are more $99 deals, and a couple hundred thousand stand-alone HD-DVD players are sold, I would think WB would consider moving to HD-DVD exclusive. If so, then HD-DVD is virtually guaranteed to win.

Oh, and you conveniently left out this quote from your source:

It looks like the original source is to blame, not the transfers. Perhaps it was a bad transfer. All I know is that King Kong, which is 3 hrs., looks absolutely fantastic. Planet Earth, which is also about 3 hrs per DVD, looks amazing too.

Sony owns multiple movie studios. Toshiba does not. Toshiba cannot force Universal to stay with their format. Sony, since it owns the movie studios, can force them to continue to use Blu-Ray, even when the market says otherwise.

Just because one produces better yields, it does not necessarily mean it's cheaper to produce. Because of economies of scale, when you produce a lot of something the cost for each individual unit does down. Since Blu-Ray is also used for PS3 games, as well as more Blu-Ray movies currently being sold, it's quite possible that it is cheaper to produce BD's simply because more are being made. We don't know for a fact the cost of production for each format, so arguing about it is useless, not to mention it probably doesn't have much of an impact on the consumer.

All those movies you mentioned are ~3 hours long where ROTK EE is over 4 hours long. Gods & Generals used exactly the same transfer for BD and HD DVD, so they are equal in quality. It's not the source that's the problem, it's because the bitrate was limited so the same transfer could fit on both formats. If it had been a release only for BD the quality would most likely have been better because they could actually make use of the extra space.

Fact: Sony won't sell Blu-Ray players for less than $399? So What. That doesn't say anything about the other companies who manufacture Blu-Ray players.

Do you really think if HD DVD wins, sony will stick with Blu-Ray? If HD DVD's are selling they'll move to HD DVD, just like when VHS won.

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PeterTHX    422
Uhhh...hahahahha!

I mean, where the hell did you come up with that? That is just plain, ol' fashioned ignorance. Good Lord. It's fine to make arguments for or against but holy hell, that was beyond stupid.

You don't know what you're talking about it seems.

We're talking the general public here. The same public that returns HD DVDs to Amazon because it won't play in their HDMI player (look at the reviews)

Or to Best Buy recently where I witnessed someone returning "Transformers" HD DVD because they bought an HDMI DVD player thinking it was an HD DVD player!

Or a woman returning HD DVD discs because they wouldn't play "well, my DVD player is hooked up to an HDTV..."

You don't work in the home video business, that is obvious.

As for patents:

Number of patent related to DVD

[6C] Matsushita (Panasonic): 198 (41%)

[6C] Toshiba: 81 (17%)

[6C] Hitachi: 68 (14%)

[6C] JVC: 55 (11%)

[6C] Mitsubishi: 26 (5%)

[3C] Philips: 20 (4.1%)

[3C] Pioneer: 19 (4.0%)

[3C] Sony: 13 (2.7%)

ALL the companies listed, except Toshiba, are Blu-ray *exclusive* members.

So the idiots who keep saying Blu-ray = Sony only automatically should be dismissed because they don't know what they are talking about.

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+Mirumir    5,635

The only Blu-ray's advantage is the movie studios owned and controlled by Sony => some films will be Blu-ray only.

/grab pop corn

/wait for sub-$200 dual-format player

Only *Toshiba* is behind the HD DVD format.

You need to check your facts, sir.

Until that 51GB disc goes into production (IF it ever does) Blu-Ray has the space advantage. If you'll read this post I made you'll see that HD DVD is running out of space for movies longer than 3 hours. They are going to have a serious problem fitting LOTR ROTK onto a HD DVD. Why support a technically inferior format?

Yeah, they should drop HD DVD because less than 0.1% of all films won't fit. /sarcasm

Edited by Zhivago

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2xSilverKnight    179

most of blu-ray owner has a ps3 first

second blu-ray fanboy here are so brainwashed with technical information that are misleading.

i always supported hd-dvd since the start and blu-ray propaganda about being better because it has 50 gb is their main reason :blink:

well hd-dvd triple layer has more space, and compatible with any hd-dvd player so what ? no movies need to use

triple layer yet, and it's already available. but blu-ray will need an update or a different player because the first blu-ray drives are not compatible

to the new 1.1 and 2.0 profiles that are not even out yet. Their standard is not even fully implemented. The ps3 with their ions of firmware updates is also a joke and

it proves how much they pushed this format to the max without being a standard by their own specification. hd-dvd had more features and navigating is much smoother.

Edited by 2xSilverKnight

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giantpotato    296
most of blu-ray owner has a ps3 first

second blu-ray fanboy here are so brainwashed with technical information that are misleading.

i always supported hd-dvd since the start and blu-ray propaganda about beeing better because it has 50 gb is their main reason :blink:

well hd-dvd triple layer has more space, and compatible with any hd-dvd player so what ? no movies need to use

triple layer yet, and it's already available. but you will need an update to come or a different player because the first blu-ray drives are not compatible

to the new 1.1 and 2.0 profiles that are not even out yet. Their standard is not even finished yet, is that a joke ? See the ps3 with their ions of firmware updates.

Please tell me how technical information is misleading. It's one of the few things that is not misleading since it's based on facts. If anything, hearsay and rumors are misleading. If you want to talk about misleading: Triple layer HD DVD's are NOT already available. Show me where I can buy one.

The Blu-Ray standard IS finished. It's just not implemented into all players yet. The spec is completely finished.

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2xSilverKnight    179
Please tell me how technical information is misleading. It's one of the few things that is not misleading since it's based on facts. If anything, hearsay and rumors are misleading. If you want to talk about misleading: Triple layer HD DVD's are NOT already available. Show me where I can buy one.

The Blu-Ray standard IS finished. It's just not implemented into all players yet. The spec is completely finished.

see you are making your own mind by your own misleading info (which was what I meant by misleading info)

I said they are already able to produce them, but no movie use it yet, got it kid ?

no spec is also a part of the profile version number which had menu features and such, that's not finished.

if some player will not be compatible, that's a big problem isn't it. talk again about finished specifications.

OH BTW, before you say try it first, I did. ANd loading and access disk time is way slower on blu-ray. PS3 games is even worse on loading.

Edited by 2xSilverKnight

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giantpotato    296
Yeah, they should drop HD DVD because less than 0.1% of all films won't fit. /sarcasm

I never said that. IF only one format is to survive, I would rather it be the one that can provide better quality on ALL movies. Why settle for a format which is not as good as another.

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SIE    115
I never said that. IF only one format is to survive, I would rather it be the one that can provide better quality on ALL movies. Why settle for a format which is not as good as another.

If everybody used that logic nobody would be buying PS3's because hardware wise there not as good as Xbox 360's which would mean Bluray would be dead.

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giantpotato    296
see you are making your own mind by your own misleading info

I said they are already able to produce them, but no movie use it yet, got it kid ?

no spec is also a part of the profile version number which had menu features and such, that's not finished.

if some player will not be compatible, that's a big problem isn't it. talk again about finished specifications.

What misleading information are you talking about? You said it's available, until I can buy one in a store it's not available. And please don't call me kid.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your second paragraph. Perhaps you should try again in french. All players will be able to play all Blu-Ray movies, That's not going to be a problem. If anything, older players will not be able to access some special features.

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majortom1981    241

Price will be a big difference. A lot of people dont play video games. These same people rather haver just a player tyo paly movies. These same people are why the ipod still sells millions. When it was released it basically only played music.

Dont underestimate the ppower of one machine to do one thing. IF hd-dvd player prices stay this way it will help tremendously. I cant find any $99 or $199 hd-dvd players in any electronics store that I go to because they are all sold out. Most of still have varying models of ps3/s or blueray players left.

It all comes down to price . Thats what matters to the General Publicl. They dont care about specs.

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Yusuf M.    1,362
I've said it since the beginning, HDDVD will win. I base this on the "people understand High Definition DVD" vs "what the hell is a Blu Ray!?"

I agree 100%. HD-DVD is slowly becoming a household name.

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giantpotato    296
I agree 100%. HD-DVD is slowly becoming a household name.

Except I've talked to people who think a HD DVD player is simply a player which plays normal DVD's in High Definition.

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Jason S.    1,503
I never said that. IF only one format is to survive, I would rather it be the one that can provide better quality on ALL movies. Why settle for a format which is not as good as another.

thats a matter of opinion. there's plenty of low quality movies on both sides of the game.

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