What DSLR to buy?

[lostspyder]

+1 on pentax

They are great budget SLRs. Great manual lenses can be had dirt cheap. You can get a range of beautiful used manual primes for 150$. I never run into buffer issues with my DL - I think you would only have problems if your shooting sports.

Remember, when your shooting, specifications don't matter. All that matters is if the camera can do what you need to do and if you can afford the gear. Most SLRs are basically the same - each can make beautiful images.

[Tantawi]

My brain will explode :cry:

Every time I think I've settled on one great camera, you guys come and post another logical opinion that makes a perfect sense! so here's the deal...

I'll be buying form http://www.bhphotovideo.com and my budget is $800 maximum including shipping (shipping to Egypt is ~$80, so the camera and accessories should be only $700).

Please go there and compose the items you think is the BEST for my limited budget (I don't know... a cheap body and good lenses, a good body and cheap lenses... etc), I'll consider all opinions, and then buy the one I feel comfortable with the best.

Things I'll do with the camera:

1- Everyday photos

2- Some macro shots, not a very detailed one but just simple ones.

3- Wide angle is a big plus.

I can't use eBay since most (all) will not process non-US credit cards, and PayPal isn't available for Egypt yet.

Thank you!

[Draconian Guppy]

IMO:

EOS Digital Rebel XT (a.k.a. 350D) 8.0 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera (Silver) Kit with Canon 18-55mm EF-S Lens

Mfr # 0206B003 • B&H # CAEDRXTKS

Availability : In Stock

$510

Lexar

2GB Professional 133x CompactFlash Card

MFR# CF2GB133380

B&H# LECF133X2GB

Price: $ 44.95

Canon

NB-2LH Lithium-Ion Battery (7.4v 720mAh)

MFR# 9612A001

B&H# CANB2LH

Price: $ 49.95

All for $605

You could at a second lense, with more zooom capabilities:

Sigma USA

Zoom Normal-Telephoto 55-200mm f/4-5.6 DC Autofocus Lens for Canon Digital EOS $149

Mfr # 684101 • B&H # SI5520045CAF

Availability : In Stock

But unless you remove some of the extras I sugges It goes over your $700 budget.

IMO: 3 Things you MUST always have when photographing: 1 EXTRA charged Battery, It sucks to be without charge and miss that shot, Loads of Gigs of Memory.

But thats cause I shot alot in the woods or when travelling and not near computer or outlets.

I'm posting canon because people seem to like canon due to its low noise at HIGH iso. However MY choice would be a pentax dslr just for the variety of cheap lenses. I did not get a Pentax when I was looking for a dSLR because the K series had not yet come out and they only had the u *IST and *ISL series which already had Serious availability issues because the new K series had already been announced

They are great budget SLRs. Great manual lenses can be had dirt cheap. You can get a range of beautiful used manual primes for 150$. I never run into buffer issues with my DL - I think you would only have problems if your shooting sports.

Remember, when your shooting, specifications don't matter. All that matters is if the camera can do what you need to do and if you can afford the gear. Most SLRs are basically the same - each can make beautiful images.

Edit: DON'T BUY USED dSLR have limited shutter capabilities, around 50,000-200,000 depending on the model. When buying owned you have no clue as to how many pics have been taken with said camera.

Edited November 20, 2007 by maudit

[Tantawi]

maudit, I appreciate your time looking for the items on the website. Thanks so much!

This looks like a good combo, the memory isn't that important since I'll buy it locally anyway and it's out of the budgeted $700, I also can do without an additional battery if it can get me a nicer camera now, the battery can always wait :D

I've came to a final list of what options are best available for my budget (plus what you've suggested of course):

- Olympus Evolt E-510 SLR Digital Camera 2-Lens Kit (Olympus 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 Zuiko Lens & Olympus 40-150mm F4.0-5.6 Zuiko Lens) - $ 675.95

- Pentax K100D, 6.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit with Pentax Zoom Super Wide Angle SMCP-DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL Autofocus Lens - $ 529.95

- Canon EOS Digital Rebel XTi (a.k.a. 400D) 10.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit (Black) with Canon 18-55mm EF-S Lens - $ 659.95

- Nikon D40, 6.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit with Nikon 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G II ED AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens and 55-200mm f/4-5.6G ED AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens - $ 549.95

Do you think it's still a better option to go with the 350D and get the "Zoom Normal-Telephoto 55-200mm f/4-5.6 DC Autofocus Lens" you suggested? or a better option is available from the above list? ^

Thanks a lot.

[Draconian Guppy]

maudit, I appreciate your time looking for the items on the website. Thanks so much!

This looks like a good combo, the memory isn't that important since I'll buy it locally anyway and it's out of the budgeted $700, I also can do without an additional battery if it can get me a nicer camera now, the battery can always wait :D

I've came to a final list of what options are best available for my budget (plus what you've suggested of course):

- Olympus Evolt E-510 SLR Digital Camera 2-Lens Kit (Olympus 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 Zuiko Lens & Olympus 40-150mm F4.0-5.6 Zuiko Lens) - $ 675.95

- Pentax K100D, 6.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit with Pentax Zoom Super Wide Angle SMCP-DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL Autofocus Lens - $ 529.95

- Canon EOS Digital Rebel XTi (a.k.a. 400D) 10.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit (Black) with Canon 18-55mm EF-S Lens - $ 659.95

- Nikon D40, 6.1 Megapixel, SLR, Digital Camera Kit with Nikon 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G II ED AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens and 55-200mm f/4-5.6G ED AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor Lens - $ 549.95

Do you think it's still a better option to go with the 350D and get the "Zoom Normal-Telephoto 55-200mm f/4-5.6 DC Autofocus Lens" you suggested? or a better option is available from the above list? ^

Thanks a lot.

Well, a lot of people say dSLR is about Glass and not Body. So My best bet would be the pentax and Telephoto lense. + I think the pentax uses AA batteries so that would be easier for you.

You could ask a mod to make a poll on this same topic with those options Although I'd scrape the D40... the lack of incamera AF motor is just not worth how cheap it is. Quoting chconline, it's not how much it cost, it's how much it's worth. And the D40 isn't worth much IMO, because it leaves a narrow path for upgradability glass-wise that is.

Again, give it time so more experienced photographers chip in. Also poll!

Edit: Wow that was fast... poll already added!

Edited November 20, 2007 by maudit

[Tantawi]

Thanks again maudit, I've added the poll myself ;) and I excluded the D40 as you recommended, and yeah I think it looks silly beside the other better options.

Vote Pros!

[HawkMan]

My brain will explode :cry:

Every time I think I've settled on one great camera, you guys come and post another logical opinion that makes a perfect sense! so here's the deal...

I'll be buying form http://www.bhphotovideo.com and my budget is $800 maximum including shipping (shipping to Egypt is ~$80, so the camera and accessories should be only $700).

Please go there and compose the items you think is the BEST for my limited budget (I don't know... a cheap body and good lenses, a good body and cheap lenses... etc), I'll consider all opinions, and then buy the one I feel comfortable with the best.

Things I'll do with the camera:

1- Everyday photos

2- Some macro shots, not a very detailed one but just simple ones.

3- Wide angle is a big plus.

I can't use eBay since most (all) will not process non-US credit cards, and PayPal isn't available for Egypt yet.

Thank you!

Your usage sounds like just what the D40 and D40X is meant for.

no need to listen to the guy who says the D40 is nothing but a point and shoot camera with changeable lenses, cause that's pure BS. The D40 and D40X are excllent DSLR cameras, and most photographers who buy more expensive models have no need for them.

the only thing I miss on my D40 is the ability to bracket, but that's because I'd like to take some background photos for use as HDR backgrounds in 3D renders. But I can still do HDR's fine without auto bracketing.

[Draconian Guppy]

Your usage sounds like just what the D40 and D40X is meant for.

no need to listen to the guy who says the D40 is nothing but a point and shoot camera with changeable lenses, cause that's pure BS. The D40 and D40X are excllent DSLR cameras, and most photographers who buy more expensive models have no need for them.

the only thing I miss on my D40 is the ability to bracket, but that's because I'd like to take some background photos for use as HDR backgrounds in 3D renders. But I can still do HDR's fine without auto bracketing.

Dude to each his own, some of us prefer old and CHEAP lenses. like the nikkor f1.8 Which is GREAT for portraits and cost only $100 or even $80 used... Heck i own a d50 and d70s, Yet I didn't recommend them, WHY? because there are better priced cameras ATM and better performance EG. Canon Digital Rebel XT Less noise which matters alot, buffer, etc. It even has better reviews all around.

My vote is ( and that of many others in this thread) Rebel XT > D40/D40x Simply because of what others and I already mentioned.

Edit: Also, like Giga Mentioned, Megapixels is only matters in dSLR if you're going to print 25x50 or something other than average 6*8 or whatever it is.

Edited November 20, 2007 by maudit

[Tantawi]

I'm surprised no one chooses Olympus E-510, can I know why?

While I'm sure that Canon Digital Rebel line is of great quality although it's near 3-years old, the Olympus E-510 (few months old) is getting very good reviews:

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/OlympusE510/

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_olympus_e510.php

They even say the kit lens is the best a kit lens can get. Now with image stabilization, better ISO performance than previous models, LCD live view finder, etc, doesn't that make it a better buy or at least a match for a 3 years old one but with some extra features?

Edited November 21, 2007 by Tantawi

[metro]

DON'T BUY USED dSLR have limited shutter capabilities, around 50,000-200,000 depending on the model. When buying owned you have no clue as to how many pics have been taken with said camera.

That's not true. Most Canon or Nikon cameras will support at least 150,000 clicks of the shutter, with more expensive models like the 1Ds MK-II or MK-III and the Nikon D2x supporting up to 300,000. There is also a way to see how many times the shutter has been used. I do it all the time just to see how much use my camera gets and to keep track of when I tend to use it more. A free program like KUSO Exif Viewer will let you load a RAW file and the data for what number the shutter actuation is will be available.

Here's an example:

[giga Veteran]

I'm surprised no one chooses Olympus E-510, can I know why?

While I'm sure that Canon Digital Rebel line is of great quality although it's near 3-years old, the Olympus E-510 (few months old) is getting very good reviews:

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/OlympusE510/

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_olympus_e510.php

They even say the kit lens is the best a kit lens can get. Now with image stabilization, better ISO performance than previous models, LCD live view finder, etc, doesn't that make it a better buy or at least a match for a 3 years old one but with some extra features?

Not sure where you're getting the age of 3 years as the XT came out in 2005 and the XTI in 2006.

The reason many choose Nikon/Canon over other brands is because of the glass. (probably the largest library--nikkors, canon L, sigma, tamron, tokina, etc) A body people replace over and over but the glass will stay there to be used on and on. Having that selection and choice gives a lot of flexibility.

Image stabilization is almost always better on the actual lens itself than the body--but it would be nice to have. Not sure where you're getting better ISO performance as they seem to be the same from the reviews. :s

Live View is one nice feature that the Olympus boasts but from what I gathered from the reviews you posted, the AF and viewfinder are superior on the Nikon/Canon. Viewfinder > LCD. Especially after this part:

Unfortunately the auto-focus system in a DSLR is bypassed with the mirror flipped-up, so in order to auto-focus in Live View mode the E-510 must temporarily drop its mirror, take a reading, then flip back up again to continue the video feed. You do this by pressing the AEL / AFL button near the viewfinder and we have a demonstration in our E-510 video tour. Alternatively if you?re happy with the composition, just press the shutter release button down and the E-510 will focus and take the shot in one go.i>

[Tantawi]

Not sure where you're getting the age of 3 years as the XT came out in 2005 and the XTI in 2006.

I think it came out in Feb 2005, so it's short of 4 months to be 3 years. Well I'm certainly aware that this wont make it a bad camera at all, I mean just may be technology progressed a little more since then? I don't know, but coming from a PC hardware buyer since 1998, I know what a year can make in advancements in the components. But you know better of course when it comes to DSLRs.

The reason many choose Nikon/Canon over other brands is because of the glass. (probably the largest library--nikkors, canon L, sigma, tamron, tokina, etc) A body people replace over and over but the glass will stay there to be used on and on. Having that selection and choice gives a lot of flexibility.

This makes a perfect sense, but lets say I wont be replacing the body for a long, a really long while, isn't it better to avoid the 350D and go with the 400D (XTi) at least? I wont be buying dozens of lenses either, just may be one or two down the line after my initial purchase.

Image stabilization is almost always better on the actual lens itself than the body--but it would be nice to have. Not sure where you're getting better ISO performance as they seem to be the same from the reviews. :s

I think no camera form the poll has IS in the kit lenses right? it's not a critical feature to me, but it may be handy sometimes, also by better ISO performance I meant compared to older Olympus cameras (people were avoiding it for this factor alone), I still think Canon is a bit superior in this field from what I've read.

One more thing I like about non-Olympus cameras is the 3:2 aspect ratio of photos! 4:3 the is very awkward to view on a widescreen and 3:2 just looks better IMHO.

So, the real question is, is the 400D worth scarifying an additional lens I can get with the 350D? probably not, but I'll wait more on the poll result.

[sin-ergy]

Screw it, get the 350D and an additional lens!! the lens makes the camera, not the other way around.

[giga Veteran]

I think it came out in Feb 2005, so it's short of 4 months to be 3 years. Well I'm certainly aware that this wont make it a bad camera at all, I mean just may be technology progressed a little more since then? I don't know, but coming from a PC hardware buyer since 1998, I know what a year can make in advancements in the components. But you know better of course when it comes to DSLRs.

This makes a perfect sense, but lets say I wont be replacing the body for a long, a really long while, isn't it better to avoid the 350D and go with the 400D (XTi) at least? I wont be buying dozens of lenses either, just may be one or two down the line after my initial purchase.

I think no camera form the poll has IS in the kit lenses right? it's not a critical feature to me, but it may be handy sometimes, also by better ISO performance I meant compared to older Olympus cameras (people were avoiding it for this factor alone), I still think Canon is a bit superior in this field from what I've read.

One more thing I like about non-Olympus cameras is the 3:2 aspect ratio of photos! 4:3 the is very awkward to view on a widescreen and 3:2 just looks better IMHO.

So, the real question is, is the 400D worth scarifying an additional lens I can get with the 350D? probably not, but I'll wait more on the poll result.

Cameras do improve over time but it's not to say that they're always better or even significant in their improvements. A value of a camera doesn't depreciate as fast as CPUs/GPUs. Many still use film DSLRs which still take marvelous photos--a picture is a picture. Daily dose of imagery actually posted a pic with his 350D instead of his 5D like usual today: http://wvs.topleftpixel.com/ (you can actually go to the archives and just browse through image by image of his photos. He started with the original Rebel 300D, ten 350D, and now 5D + 350D)

350D:

Of course the first one was with the 10-22mm and the second the 60mm macro.

You won't be buying dozens of lenses over the course of few years probably, but once you start going down the line--you're pretty much stuck. (unless you sell it off of course) That's how people accumulate lens collections over time, some of the best lens for DSLRs were produced back in the 80s and 90s--and yes, they're still quite popular and used widely today. (The 50mm 1.8 is an example)

Aspect ratio isn't really a big deal as cropping can be done quite easily for your needs. I won't tell you to pick a specific body but rather to go to a shop and hold them yourself and take several snaps with it. Test the body, menu navigation, viewfinder, etc.

Personally, the XTI has few to offer over the XT. Basically some moot features which won't make a different in picture quality. (2 more MP, dust cleaning, larger LCD. Though the larger buffer and 9pt AF sensor would help with sports and fast action) If you have the money, by all means go for it.

But sin-ergy makes a very true statement. See the above pics for reference--the lens make the largest factor in the camera.

[Tantawi]

OK, I'm sold on the Canon!!

Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL XT (350D) 8.0 MEGAPIXEL DIGITAL SLR CAMERA BODY - BLACK $428.99

Canon EF-S 18-55/3.5-5.6 IS IMAGE STABELIZED ZOOM LENS FOR DIGITAL SLRS $179.00

Sigma AF 70-300/4-5.6 MACRO DG FOR CANON EOS (58MM) $124.99

Shipping $60

Total = $793

or:

Canon - EOS DIGITAL REBEL XTI (400D) DIGITAL SLR W/EF-S 18-55 MM LENS KIT - BLACK 634.99

Sigma - AF 70-300/4-5.6 MACRO DG FOR CANON EOS (58MM) $124.99

Shipping $52

Total = $811

=============

Basically in the second option I'm sacrifying image stabilization to get the 400D instead of the 350D, so what do you think is the better option?

Edited November 21, 2007 by Tantawi

[Draconian Guppy]

That's not true. Most Canon or Nikon cameras will support at least 150,000 clicks of the shutter, with more expensive models like the 1Ds MK-II or MK-III and the Nikon D2x supporting up to 300,000. There is also a way to see how many times the shutter has been used. I do it all the time just to see how much use my camera gets and to keep track of when I tend to use it more. A free program like KUSO Exif Viewer will let you load a RAW file and the data for what number the shutter actuation is will be available.

Here's an example:

Metro the "150,000" clicks is my point exactly. I've read and seen dSLR go even further than 300,000.

my own quote "DON'T BUY USED dSLR have limited shutter capabilities, around 50,000-200,000 " which would be good estimate for a used XT, since it may go pass the 200k or underperform due to factory defects. I agree with you, shutter life is no way to rate a used product, but... Would you buy a nikon with say 145,000 clicks? Anyway... There's ways around it, when you reload firmware the counter goes back to 0 at least on nikons, which is pretty bad since the only way you know you got a new camera is the smell :p ?

Oh and on the Olympus... Four thirds lens mount = Less lenses. even "worse" is their sensor is much noisier than the rest we've mentioned on the thread or at least that's what a tons of reviews say. ( and I mean "worse" because it's slightly noisier than other dSLR and not consumer cam noisy. But for me even slightly was a big issue).

I'm with giga and Sin-nergy! 350d + additional lenses!

Edit: Simply because the features of the 400d Won't MAKE up for the lense You won't have if you chose said camera... Hence why my vote goes to 350d.

[Tantawi]

Thanks all.

So should I add a tripod to my list? is it necessary even with a lens/camera with image stabilization?

[Draconian Guppy]

Thanks all.

So should I add a tripod to my list? is it necessary even with a lens/camera with image stabilization?

Buying it online will certainly add bulk to your shipping and that = $$$, try to buy it locally. Tripods are loyal to the "one fits all" in most cases so it should be easy, not sure about Egypt though :p

Image stabilization, helps up to a certain point in handheld situations were a tripod is unavailable/unusable, for very slow shutters a tripod is almost always recommended.

Really, Really off topic, what are your idle and load temps for the C2Q ?

[Tantawi]

Buying it online will certainly add bulk to your shipping and that = $$$, try to buy it locally. Tripods are loyal to the "one fits all" in most cases so it should be easy, not sure about Egypt though :p

Image stabilization, helps up to a certain point in handheld situations were a tripod is unavailable/unusable, for very slow shutters a tripod is almost always recommended.

Really, Really off topic, what are your idle and load temps for the C2Q ?

Well, I wont be buying one of these $xxx ones :D, I think I'll pick up this one: http://www.tristatecamera.com/lookat.php?sku=DAVTRAVLR, and it adds $4 to shipping only. I wont bother looking in local shops because I know either it'll be over priced for quality ones, or cheap and low quality. :/ mmm may be I'll do a round tomorrow just to prove my theory :p

For the C2Q temps: 34c/32c/28c/30c, max load temp is in the 50s or early 60s range. I love winter! (L)

[Draconian Guppy]

Amazing how both canons are tied @ 9-9

[Tantawi]

Amazing how both canons are tied @ 9-9

That's kind of expected, the really amazing thing is that the Olympus E-510 is getting ZERO votes! from reading many reviews, it misses some on AF, a bit noisy at ISO 1600 and that's it, it's a great camera with better kit lenses than many.

Anyway, I got the tripod :D found a used one from a studio for $28! and it's very customizable and solid built (Y).

[Draconian Guppy]

That's kind of expected, the really amazing thing is that the Olympus E-510 is getting ZERO votes! from reading many reviews, it misses some on AF, a bit noisy at ISO 1600 and that's it, it's a great camera with better kit lenses than many.

Anyway, I got the tripod :D found a used one from a studio for $28! and it's very customizable and solid built (Y).

Well because great glass won't make up for the noise the sensor produces. However you certainly seem to WANT an olympus :p ?

[Tantawi]

Well because great glass won't make up for the noise the sensor produces. However you certainly seem to WANT an olympus :p ?

So tempting man http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse510/ :cry: this review was just published few hours ago! it's a sign!! :alien:

After reading it, 350D seems less and less an attractive option, and the 400D is the only Canon I'm considering now.

Please read the review and tell me your comments.

I can get the camera with 2-lens kit (Olympus 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 / Olympus 40-150mm F4.0-5.6) for $675.95: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...8309&is=REG

The Canon 400D (body only) will cost $579.95 :/ and I'm not getting their kit lenses since obviously the Olympus will be better in that case.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/4575..._Rebel_XTi.html so I'll need like additional $200 at least and that's so out of budget after adding the shipping :(

[Draconian Guppy]

Ok so i'ma post the cons from the 350, 400 canon and 510 olympus

Olympus 510

Dynamic Range less than competition (highlights by about three quarters of a stop; 0.7 EV)

Serious highlight clipping on bright days unless you reduce exposure

Small viewfinder (difficult to see fine detail, difficult to check focus, difficult to use with glasses)

Live View usefulness countered by LCD which doesn't tilt, not bright enough outdoors

Long, unstructured menus make finding some less common settings frustrating

Live histogram and preview brightness inaccurate if you use Live Preview Boost.

Best results require adjustment of Noise Filter and Sharpness settings

Visibly noisier results than most competitors above ISO 400

Slower than average startup due to the SSWF (should be at power-off / intervals)

No delete / cancel option during record review (immediately after shutter release)

Auto focus provides just three focus points, although AF performance good

Focus-by-wire kit lens means no focus distance indication, lack of precision and slight lag

Flash must be raised for AF assist

350d Canon

Opening the CF compartment door shuts camera down, loses any buffered images

LCD monitor is dim unless you turn up brightness setting

New kit lens disappointing at telephoto with smaller apertures

Average automatic white balance performance, still very poor under incandescent light

Controls for ISO, metering, AF mode and White Balance now require extra SET press

Can be awkward to change ISO, metering, AF mode and WB settings in bright daylight

Drive mode button too easy to press accidentally

No spot metering

ISO sensitivity not displayed on viewfinder status bar or LCD panel while being changed

Flash must be raised for AF assist

Flash sync 1/200 sec (compared to 1/500 sec for the Nikon D70)

Plastic finish will not be everyone's taste

No Kelvin white balance selection in-camera

Small viewfinder view, although brighter than EOS 300D

400d Canon

Kit lens disappointing, better to buy body only and spend more on a good lens

Sporadic continuous shooting once buffer is full

Occasional under-exposure issue with Evaluative metering

Average automatic white balance performance, still very poor under incandescent light

ISO, WB, Metering mode etc. not displayed on viewfinder status bar during change

Flash must be raised for AF assist

No Kelvin white balance selection in-camera

No spot metering

No mass storage device USB driver, poor WIA transfer rates (and awkward to use)

Opening the CF compartment door shuts camera down, loses any buffered images

Small viewfinder view

Just for you to take a look at... I didn't post the pros because there's basically no point to. IMO see which of the 3 cameras has the LEAST cons that you care about ( including price), whether that be image quality, performance, features etc. based on those cons..

Edit: Don't let the poll votes lead you, I suggested that so you would have a basic idea what the most of us would go for.

[Tantawi]

The E-510 it's (Y)

Thanks guys, I'll order within two days from now :)