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[official] Next Generation HD Format General Discussion

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draklin    465
And where does it say that Blu-Ray or PS3 is making money for Sony? They are STILL losing HUGE amount of money day after day one of the reasons they had to cancel 80gb no doubt. They are LUCKY that their PC, TV and camera depts sell well because they would be dead in the water.

Don't forget about the profit that Sony makes on the PS2 which is still selling well and games.

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+Audioboxer    2,876
Audio, they are STILL losing money. You do understand that when you make a console physicially for $400 and you sell it for $400 you are still losing at least $50-$100 per console right? There are shipping costs, marketing, packaging, retailer space etc etc. Not to mention the fact that they'll still need to drop the price AGAIN in order to compete if rumors of Xbox 360 going cheaper this year.

Boz...

They aren't

losing HUGE amount of money day after day

And the profits about european sales will be true.

Oh and 1 article I posted was the first one from the 2006 just to show you that people already knew they will lose billions. Please don't play that game. It's despicable.

Yes we all know that, but you're tieing those articles into your thoughts that they are still losing tons of money, when they aren't.

How much does the 360 cost to make? MS have already lost a ton of money through the RROD warranties as well.

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Boz    1,324
Boz...

They aren't

And the profits about european sales will be true.

Yes we all know that, but you're tieing those articles into your thoughts that they are still losing tons of money, when they aren't.

Where does it say in your articles they are not lossing money? Give me a break. Your interpretation that if their production costs for the console are the same as retailer they are somehow not losing money. Please.

I swear, how can anyone discuss things when you just keep going with this kind of flawed logic.

$400 production and $400 retailers = LOSS what part of that is unclear? The latest article they lost almost $900 million was from November/December for Q4.. it's ridiculous to claim that in 1 month they've completely stopped losing money.. do you see how ridiculous that sounds...

And as for your Xbox comment, it's completely irrelevant. I'm not talking about microsoft here, but judging by their reports they are making a KILLING! They have been breaking even since mid last year and had 1 billion set back with RRODs, but are making a BUNCH of money now.

They were losing $126 per console back in 2005 so you do the math

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/11/23/microsof...-sold-xbox-360/

In 2006 they cut production by 40%

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/di...1120132150.html

It's not hard to realize that they've been making money for a while now.

Edited by Boz

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ctebah    3,161
I swear, how can anyone discuss things when you just keep on going with flawed logic and without really common sense.

dude, you really have to stick to the discussion and stop insulting people. i'm reporting you again.

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+Audioboxer    2,876
Where does it say in your articles they are not lossing money? Give me a break. Your interpretation that if their production costs for the console are the same as retailer they are somehow not losing money. Please.

I swear, how can anyone discuss things when you just keep on going with flawed logic and without really common sense.

$400 production and $400 retailers = LOSS what part of that don't you understand? The latest article they lost almost $900 million was from November/December for Q4.. it's ridiculous to claim that in 1 month they've completely stopped losing money.. do you see how ridiculous that sounds...

And as for your Xbox comment, it's completely irrelevant. I'm not talking about microsoft here, but judging by their reports they are making a KILLING! They have been breaking even since mid last year and had 1 billion set back with RRODs, but are making a BUNCH of money now.

They will make money in Europe and anywhere the dollar is strong as shown in the report, did you read it? Obviously not.

A PS3 selling for $590/$738 in Europe = profit on a system that costs $400 to make.

I'm not going to argue costs for USA as obviously $400 sell, $400 to make, on the make side there will be overheads but I have no clue how you magically know it's $50-$100 extra. So yeah, they're making a loss there, but it's hardly "TONS" like you said now the costs to make are down to $400.

The PS3 is selling well in Europe, so profits made there on sales may even cover the small losses made in the states? I dunno how Japan sits, as I have no idea how the Yen faces up to the Dollar.

Boz you're a friggin machine, you must absolutely DESPISE Sony and Blu Ray. Never have I seen someone so one minded about these subjects. Any bit of good news/positive news even if it isn't ground breaking, but a move in the right direction, you always seem to find a way to flatten it - Either by saying the competition does it better, or that it's flawed/trickery/we "dont get" what is really going on or something to that nature.

I don't mind people having preferences, but my god, this is almost an obsession.

Sorry, just the way I see it - Don't mean for this to be offensive, you yourself will probably admit you're a big HD-DVD guy ;)

Makes for good discussion, even if eventful though (Y) :laugh:

Edited by Audioboxer

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Boz    1,324
dude, you really have to stick to the discussion and stop insulting people. i'm reporting you again.

so when someone points out that you might have flawed logic and the post lacks common sense that's insulting to you?

Okay, well I apologize if my post insulted you.. I'm sorry that you feel inclined to report comments that are not really meant to insult you because you fail to prove your points.

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ctebah    3,161
so when someone points out that you might have flawed logic and the post lacks common sense that's insulting to you?

Okay, well I apologize if my post insulted you.. I'm sorry that you feel inclined to report comments that are not really meant to insult you because you fail to refute your points.

it's your opinion that someone has flawed logic and their posts lack common sense. i think the same about you but you don't see me posting it in between posts or saying how it's pointless to argue against you.

this is the 2nd time you apologized to me in 2 days. how about you just don't post insulting comments? oh, and I am definitely not the only one feeling that way. read audioboxers posts, to me, he makes a lot more sense than you, but then again that's just my opinion.

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+Audioboxer    2,876
so when someone points out that you might have flawed logic and the post lacks common sense that's insulting to you?

Okay, well I apologize if my post insulted you.. I'm sorry that you feel inclined to report comments that are not really meant to insult you because you fail to refute your points.

To be fair, saying my post has no logic, and that I lack common sense was very harsh when all I did was post 2 articles about costs reducing, and about profits potentially being made in certain continents due to costs coming down - Profits being due to how strong the dollar is in certain places (it's almost $2 to ?1 here). There is no flawed logic in that, it's plain and simply true...

You know im one for discussing things, so instead of loud mouthing me with smart remarks, it's better to just reply with where you think ive gone wrong.

I don't offend easily, so I may not jump outta the box and tell you you're getting reported like others, but I still do read remarks like that, and they do disappoint me more than offend me.

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Boz    1,324
it's your opinion that someone has flawed logic and their posts lack common sense. i think the same about you but you don't see me posting it in between posts or saying how it's pointless to argue against you.

this is the 2nd time you apologized to me in 2 days. how about you just don't post insulting comments? oh, and I am definitely not the only one feeling that way. read audioboxers posts, to me, he makes a lot more sense than you, but then again that's just my opinion.

First of all it is my mistake.. I thought your post was Audio's.. I have nothing to apologize to you here.

In the other post I did apologize because I've tried to be courteous, don't mistake that for anything else.

You seem to have a really weird way of finding something insulting. If someone points out specific information that refutes your points you find it insulting. Hilarious.

You can feel free to keep reporting as I really can't do anything about that.

To be fair, saying my post has no logic, and that I lack common sense was very harsh when all I did was post 2 articles about costs reducing, and about profits potentially being made in certain continents due to costs coming down.

You know im one for discussing things, so instead of loud mouthing me with smart remarks, it's better to just reply with where you think ive gone wrong.

I don't offend easily, so I may not jump outta the box and tell you you're getting reported like others, but I still do read remarks like that, and they do disappoint me more than offend me.

And I do think that your logic is flawed from my point of view.. I do think my post about lack of common sense was harsh so I apologize Audio. My previous comment was not meant to go to Stevan but you. I've edited my comment.

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ctebah    3,161
You seem to have a really weird way of finding something insulting. If someone points out specific information that refutes your points you find it insulting. Hilarious.

what in god are you talking about? I find it insulting when you talk down to people and post things that you later apologize for. I never found you posting facts and backing up your statements insulting, if anything it helps your credibility. why you would say what you just said, i don't know, but lets get back to topic.

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Boz    1,324

LATEST NPD REPORT SHOWS BLU-RAY SALES WERE NO TREND:

npdjan19.jpg

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/29/lates...-were-no-trend/

The numbers shown in the chart did not have HD DVD player included from online retailers as Amazon or others where HD DVD for the most part hold record-breaking sales as on amazon alone HD DVD players all 3 HD-A3, A30 and A35 held the first top 5 spots of all DVD players and at least one (HD-A3) was among top 10 in all electronics.

Venturer Electronics an online storefront and an official Toshiba distributor has also reported record breaking HD DVD sales with multiple restocks.

As already noted, the BDA hype was again nothing more then an attempt in spinning. I'm glad because it really starts showing how much lies and spins are coming from Blu-Ray side.

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DrCheese    103

I was waiting for someone to post that.

The thing is, even with HD-DVD's massive price cuts, it's still selling quite a bit less than it was before the Warner ruling.

Week before Warner's announcement: 14,558 units sold

Week after Warner's announcement: 1,758 units sold

Week after a 50% price cut: 8,639 units sold

BD before Warner: 15,257 units sold

Week after Warner: 21,770 units sold

Week after HD-DVD's Price cut: 16,496 units sold

Source: NPD

So whist Blu-ray is down from the previous week, its still way ahead, despite Toshiba's massive price cuts. HD-DVD is selling well but not well enough if it wants to overcome Blu-ray. These NPD stats ignore the PS3 and the 360 addon.

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+Audioboxer    2,876
I was waiting for someone to post that.

The thing is, even with HD-DVD's massive price cuts, it's still selling quite a bit less than it was before the Warner ruling.

Week before Warner's announcement: 14,558 units sold

Week after Warner's announcement: 1,758 units sold

Week after a 50% price cut: 8,639 units sold

BD before Warner: 15,257 units sold

Week after Warner: 21,770 units sold

Week after HD-DVD's Price cut: 16,496 units sold

Source: NPD

So whist Blu-ray is down from the previous week, its still way ahead, despite Toshiba's massive price cuts. HD-DVD is selling well but not well enough if it wants to overcome Blu-ray. These NPD stats ignore the PS3 and the 360 addon.

They do?

Impressive seeing as Blu Ray standalone players cost quite a bit more.

I suppose if you add PS3 sales you would take it to thousands more.... I understand them leaving PS3 sales out as not EVERY person who buys a PS3 uses Blu Ray (where as if you buy a standalone player, you're OBVIOUSLY going to buy movies). However I still think it would be interesting if they did publish another set of numbers with PS3 included - HD-DVD fans would probably tear peoples eyes out as the graph would look insanely 1-sided with PS3 sales lumped on mind you :laugh:

I don't see why the 360 addon is NOT included, as like a standalone player, you can only buy it to play movies, you wouldn't buy a 360 addon and sit and stare at it :/

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Boz    1,324
They do?

Impressive seeing as Blu Ray standalone players cost quite a bit more.

They giveaway is still in effect. So they are still giving players away.

I will say it again, the numbers included DO NOT include ONLINE RETAILERS SALES like Amazon and similar where HD DVD sold incredibly well.

Now, not only that we can't see Walmart numbers (which I agree are less importnat this past week as they joined in late with price cuts for HD DVD), but now they are omitting online retailer sales too.

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Boz    1,324
I was waiting for someone to post that.

The thing is, even with HD-DVD's massive price cuts, it's still selling quite a bit less than it was before the Warner ruling.

First of all selling less then prior to holiday season is quite normal. It's absolutely positive to see that numbers are coming CLOSE to the sales during the season as well. Price cuts are still uknown to many people, this will of course change with the Super Bowl ad where about 100 million people will know that HD DVD is dirt cheap.

The reason you see Blu-Ray sales excell is simply because they are STILL giving players away. I'm not sure exactly when the promotions will end for Sony, Sharp and Panasonic (I think Panasonic might've ended) but they are still offsetting numbers and really don't paint the real picture.

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TruckWEB    480
They giveaway is still in effect. So they are still giving players away.

Toshiba could do the same and giveaway HD-DVD player with a new Toshiba HDTV. In fact, here, they where "offering" the A-3 for $99 when you buy a new Toshiba HDTV (If I remember it was Bestbuy, last week).

I don't mind at all that Sharp/Sony would giveaway a free Blu-Ray player with a new TV. AGAIN, it's smart marketing on their part. And you still get those 5 free movies....

All in all, even if Toshiba is lowering the price of HD-DVD player, their marketing strategie is still lacking. Sony is pushing much harder.

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+Audioboxer    2,876
They giveaway is still in effect. So they are still giving players away.

I will say it again, the numbers included DO NOT include ONLINE RETAILERS SALES like Amazon and similar where HD DVD sold incredibly well.

Now, not only that we can't see Walmart numbers (which I agree are less importnat this past week as they joined in late with price cuts for HD DVD), but now they are omitting online retailer sales too.

Ok fair enough, but the minute you include PS3 sales HD-DVD is obliterated either way - For reasons I said above I know it's not fair to include every PS3 sale worldwide, but im just playing the game you are by saying "stats for HD-DVD for shop x" aren't included and could change things.

And do you think in Walmart/Amazon Blu Ray doesn't sell well as well? It's selling well in other shops included in the stats.

Blu Ray is selling well on Amazon also - http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

These giveaways are damaging HD-DVD Boz, so it's a winning move for Blu Ray and obviously good marketing.

I'm sure if HD-DVD were giving away things, you'd be over the moon and telling us how it's clever and that it's giving HD-DVD a huge lead/head start over Blu Ray.

And the consumers aren't going to complain about free HD players bundled in with their TV's and what not, are they?

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Boz    1,324
Ok fair enough, but the minute you include PS3 sales HD-DVD is obliterated either way.

And do you think in Walmart/Amazon Blu Ray doesn't sell well as well? It's selling well in other shops included in the stats.

Blu Ray is selling well on Amazon also - http://www.eproductwars.com/dvd/

These giveaways are damaging HD-DVD Boz, so it's a winning move for Blu Ray and obviously good marketing.

I'm sure if HD-DVD were giving away things, you'd be over the moon and telling us how it's clever and that it's giving HD-DVD a huge lead/head start over Sony.

First of all we all know that HD DVD owns Amazon in player sales. All 3 players are constnatly in top 5 of Amazon DVD players and top 10 of all electronics. Blu-Ray is hardly even among top 100 in all electronics and like 11 or 20 for Panasonic in DVD players.

So yeah, the numbers would heavily favor HD DVD. Of course they are not included.

Second, giveaways are damaging temporarily to HD DVD when the PR and blogs start writing articles as if those Blu-Ray players are being picked up by customers because they want them. This is why NPD came out officailly and said that this is nonsense and that it's obvious that if someone gives you something for free it can't be shown as a sale no matter how you punch it in the computer.

The damage you are talking about is short term. Wait until those promos end and they will end it soon and see how numbers look like.

I'm not saying that people are not getting Blu-Ray players, I'm pointing out that putting Blu-Ray players sales and consumers spending their money for them in one basket as a fact is grossly misleading and simply lies.

The only damaging thing for HD DVD here are lies and misrepresentations through these numbers. Nothing else. If you call this marketing, then let's all lie about everything and see where it gets us.

Just say what it is, Blu-Ray gave away players for free and thus the differnece in sales. I don't mind Sony spinning because they have to, but this goes into media outlets and shows complete lack of ethics and objectivity by those outlets. You do realize that close to 80% of those Blu-Ray numbers are due because of the freebies you can't spin this no matter how hard they want.

And if we see this huge jump in sales for HD DVD now, I can't wait to see what happens after Super Bowl ad where over 100 million people is estimated to watch.

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kak    0
The reason you see Blu-Ray sales excell is simply because they are STILL giving players away. I'm not sure exactly when the promotions will end for Sony, Sharp and Panasonic (I think Panasonic might've ended) but they are still offsetting numbers and really don't paint the real picture.

The real picture? You don't think that a free Blu-Ray player with a HDTV is a great deal? Its a unit out the door, which is the real picture. For someone saying that they are promoting the most 'user friendly format' and such, you sure are looking hypocritical when you slam BDA CE companies for being user friendly in the market. You should be promoting this, not looking for reasons to make it negative. The BOGOs, free movies w/TV purchase, and other options is GREAT for the consumer and will help push HDM on the public. Its too bad that its not for the format that you want to win, but you can't deny that their strategy is great [except for the fact that they don't end it already].

I really wish the BDA would just slash their prices on 1.0 players to $100-$150 and end this already.

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Coldgunner    12
Just say what it is, Blu-Ray gave away players for free and thus the differnece in sales. I don't mind Sony spinning because they have to, but this goes into media outlets and shows complete lack of ethics and objectivity by those outlets. You do realize that close to 80% of those Blu-Ray numbers are due because of the freebies you can't spin this no matter how hard they want.

proof please?

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+Audioboxer    2,876
First of all we all know that HD DVD owns Amazon in player sales. All 3 players are constnatly in top 5 of Amazon DVD players and top 10 of all electronics. Blu-Ray is hardly even among top 100 in all electronics and like 11 or 20 for Panasonic in DVD players.

So yeah, the numbers would heavily favor HD DVD. Of course they are not included.

Second, giveaways are damaging temporarily to HD DVD when the PR and blogs start writing articles as if those Blu-Ray players are being picked up by customers because they want them. This is why NPD came out officailly and said that this is nonsense and that it's obvious that if someone gives you something for free it can't be shown as a sale no matter how you punch it in the computer.

The damage you are talking about is short term. Wait until those promos end and they will end it soon and see how numbers look like.

I'm not saying that people are not getting Blu-Ray players, I'm pointing out that putting Blu-Ray players sales and consumers spending their money for them in one basket as a fact is grossly misleading and simply lies.

The only damaging thing for HD DVD here are lies and misrepresentations through these numbers. Nothing else. If you call this marketing, then let's all lie about everything and see where it gets us.

Just say what it is, Blu-Ray gave away players for free and thus the differnece in sales. I don't mind Sony spinning because they have to, but this goes into media outlets and shows complete lack of ethics and objectivity by those outlets. You do realize that close to 80% of those Blu-Ray numbers are due because of the freebies you can't spin this no matter how hard they want.

And if we see this huge jump in sales for HD DVD now, I can't wait to see what happens after Super Bowl ad where over 100 million people is estimated to watch.

I'm not going to tackle your guesses of %'s and numbers, but all I will say is the longer Blu Ray give away free stuff and make the numbers look the way they are, the more positive press they get, more media, more showboating (we are outselling HD-DVD by great margins) and the more attractive they look to consumers.

Free giveaways may not last forever, but depending how long this goes on for it could = long term damage for HD-DVD.

You speak as if they minute the giveaways end it will end up 60:40 HD-DVD or something...

Also I know a lot of people watch the superbowl, but I'll chew my face off if HD-DVD starts outselling Blu Ray consistently after that commericial add run. It will definitely help, but it's not going to be the saviour of HD-DVD.

Sony's advertising of the PS3 as a Blu Ray players has been going on for far longer, and in the early days they practically sold the PS3 as a Blu Ray player on TV instead of a games console.

And guess what? The PS3 is advertised worldwide, not just during the superbowl.

Finally the Blu Ray players ending up in peoples houses is not LIES. I absolutely love how you spin that one. It is good marketing, I made a point im pretty impressed with a page or two back... to recap it was something like this...

In the early stages of the HD war, the stage you clearly rant on about only being 2% of the 98% of DVD owners, it's more attractive for Blu Ray to saturate the market in anyway possible (BOGOs, Give aways, ect)

Why you ask?

Well it helps them win the initial support from consumers, from studios down to how their numbers and support look. The real money is made when the DVD crowd fully come over, and if your product on paper looks to be outselling it's rival 2:1, has more studio support... what looks the best option I ask Boz?

Lots of places have been talking about the demise of HD-DVD, chitter chatter like that over the airwaves does NOT help confidence in consumers either.

Edited by Audioboxer

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Boz    1,324
The real picture? You don't think that a free Blu-Ray player with a HDTV is a great deal? Its a unit out the door, which is the real picture. For someone saying that they are promoting the most 'user friendly format' and such, you sure are looking hypocritical when you slam BDA CE companies for being user friendly in the market. You should be promoting this, not looking for reasons to make it negative. The BOGOs, free movies w/TV purchase, and other options is GREAT for the consumer and will help push HDM on the public. Its too bad that its not for the format that you want to win, but you can't deny that their strategy is great [except for the fact that they don't end it already].

I really wish the BDA would just slash their prices on 1.0 players to $100-$150 and end this already.

I am pro-consumer and I have not denied the benefit for someone who picks up the TV and gets a Blu-Ray player as a bad deal. You are coming to that conclusion yourself.

But let me put it simple:

- Giving a $400-$500 player for free for a limited time to offset numbers in media where the player cotinues to be $400+ after the promotion is over does nothing for the consumers in general except for those who took advantage of that deal. This type of promotion is guaranteed to not repeated often or not at least until next Holiday season. Let's not even calculate that they are still charging you for that player, because usually to get those you have to be buying $2000+ TV that costs them definitely less then $1500 to make, but that's beside the point.

- AN HD players that is being sold for $149 MSRP and goes down to $100 in retail for ALL consumers is much more pro consumer as it allows ALL consumers even the ones with shallower pockets to enjoy HD, not only the ones who are ready to spend $2000+ on a TV.

Do you see the difference?

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sundayx    127

Sorry OT but Boz did you actually get a S5?

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Boz    1,324
I'm not going to tackle your guesses of %'s and numbers, but all I will say is the longer Blu Ray give away free stuff and make the numbers look the way they are, the more positive press they get, more media, more showboating (we are outselling HD-DVD by great margins) and the more attractive they look to consumers.

Free giveaways may not last forever, but depending how long this goes on for it could = long term damage for HD-DVD.

You speak as if they minute the giveaways end it will end up 60:40 HD-DVD or something...

Also I know a lot of people watch the superbowl, but I'll chew my face off if HD-DVD starts outselling Blu Ray consistently after that commericial add run. It will definitely help, but it's not going to be the saviour of HD-DVD.

And that's EXACTLY what I think will happen. Hell right now, only a week after the price drop started we are seeing numbers at about 65:35 for Blu with ALL the giveaways and with exclusion of online retailers. What do you think will happen when Super Bowl ad kicks in, Blu-Ray promos end and HD DVD players continue selling at $100-$150 plus new movies start coming out like American Gangster and then in February Beowolf and Bee Movie.

If things happens as I say, there's no reason for you to chew your face off as every HD DVD supporter and company and analyst has already made public that cheap SELLS no matter how you spin the expensive stuff.

Sorry OT but Boz did you actually get a S5?

No :( I'm still waiting.. they called me today and confirmed first week of April.. so we'll see.. I'm going sick out of my mind waiting :)

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+Audioboxer    2,876
And that's EXACTLY what I think will happen. Hell right now, only a week after the price drop started we are seeing numbers at about 65:35 for Blu with ALL the giveaways and with exclusion of online retailers. What do you think will happen when Super Bowl ad kicks in, Blu-Ray promos end and HD DVD players continue selling at $100-$150 plus new movies start coming out like American Gangster and then in February Beowolf and Bee Movie.

If things happens as I say, there's no reason for you to chew your face off as every HD DVD supporter and company and analyst has already made public that cheap SELLS no matter how you spin the expensive stuff.

No :( I'm still waiting.. they called me today and confirmed first week of April.. so we'll see.. I'm going sick out of my mind waiting :)

Re-read what I added in my post at the bottom (#71).

Blu Ray offers will continue to go on for the reasons I pointed out, and until the DVD market really starts to jump over, as I genuinely believe the Blu Ray camp is going after the goal I posted - Saturation, before profit (although you can bet they make decent money off their standalones, compared to Toshiba who will no doubt make a loss).

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