Games for Windows?


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I just went to check the PC gaming forum to see if a TF2 update had been released yet. To my surprise, I couldn't find what I was looking for, but they I noticed "Games for Windows".

Now, I know I have a Debian logo in my signature and you're probably thinking I'm a classic Microsoft hating Linux fanboy, but giving the forum that name is really not on. "Games for Windows" is Microsoft's attempt to keep their monopoly in the PC gaming market, it is nothing more than aggressive marketing and it shouldn't be helped by Neowin.

I am a Linux user and I play games. Look at some of the best games that have been released in the past few years, UT2004, Doom 3, Quake 4, ETQW (hopefully UT3 soon), all multi-platform with versions available for Linux and OS X. There's no such thing as Games for Windows, it's "PC Games"!

I don't think it is fair to discriminate against the non-Windows gamers and I don't think any Windows gamers are going to be upset if the forum didn't include the name of their OS of choice. Please change it back to "PC Games".

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I'm not really a big gamer when it comes to PCs, but I agree with this sentiment. The GfW label just sounds like Microsoft realized "Crap, Linux is really coming up on our heels, Mac sales are up, open-source is taking off...what do we still have? Oh, right, games! Let's get subconscious associatons between Windows and gaming in everyone's heads so people think they need Windows in order to play PC games!"

Having the main "Gamers' Hangout" be the forum for Lin/Mac games and a separate subforum be dedicated to Windows gaming seems, at least to me, like it's a little overcomplicated. If you're going to have a dedicated forum for Windows gaming, might as well have two more for Linux gaming and Mac gaming. Then you get the BSDtards and the Lintards fighting over whether BSD gets its own forum, and that one guy from Montana who plays games on Hurd chimes in, and before you know it it's a whole big mess.

I'm just one guy and of course I don't run Neowin, but in all seriousness it seems more sensible to divide GH up by hardware type instead of by operating system. It would make more sense to have a "PC Hardware Gaming" forum than to use the master forum (instead of a separate subforum) for non-Windows games and a subforum for Windows games.

"PC Games" aka "Games for Windows". Same difference.

The point is that not all PCs run Windows, but with the possible exception of the Hurd (shut up, Greg, and go back to Montana) all operating systems run games. I don't game very often outside of consoles, but I've played games on my G5 (Doom 3) and on my Linux system (OpenArena, Nexuiz, Singularity).

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No, 'Games for Windows' is an attempt to brand all the games together. Sort of the same way 'XBOX 360' is branded across all its games.

GfW tagged games are not necessarily stopped from playing on anything else. Most of them work on macs, if nothing else.

Now, games that are enabled with 'Games for Windows Live' probably will work only on Windows. But those games are few and far between, and are usually Microsoft games.

As far as calling it 'discrimination'. Come on. That couldn't be serious.

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GfW tagged games are not necessarily stopped from playing on anything else. Most of them work on macs, if nothing else.

Well there you go then, even less reason to name the forum after this brand name. It's just like the stupid Nvidia and ATI branding they put on games. Nobody calls UT3 a "Game for Nvidia", that would just be stupid, but of course a lot more people would complain about that.

As far as calling it 'discrimination'. Come on. That couldn't be serious.

Go and look up discrimination in a dictionary.

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"Games for Windows" is Microsoft's attempt to keep their monopoly in the PC gaming market, it is nothing more than aggressive marketing and it shouldn't be helped by Neowin.

Yes, because since Neowin accurately names a forum after what the forum's subject matter is about, they are helping Microsoft's aggressive marketing.

Give me a break.

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No, 'Games for Windows' is an attempt to brand all the games together. Sort of the same way 'XBOX 360' is branded across all its games.

I know it's an attempt to brand them together, but Microsoft directly benefits (in a way they arguably shouldn't) from the branding and the subsequent misconception that Windows is required for all PC games. It's one thing to brand Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo, etc. games together. The company made the hardware, maintains the hardware, handles licensing, etc. They "control the world," as it were, where their consoles are concerned.

Windows, on the other hand, is a closed system that runs on open commodity hardware. The games are written to use some elements of Windows but their machine code is designed to run on the hardware, hence the ability to port games to Linux without a drastic rewrite of the code. x86 (or X86_64) is still x86, regardless of what OS it's running.

Frankly I thought the "PC CDROM" logo, while kinda fugly, was better suited to denoting a game that ran on computer hardware versus console hardware. If they could spruce up the PC CDROM logo and make it look less 1993 and more 2008, it would be a big improvement over the intentionally-misleading GfW logo.

GfW tagged games are not necessarily stopped from playing on anything else. Most of them work on macs, if nothing else.

The problem is that there are people who don't know that they work on other platforms, and assume that Windows makes a PC work the same way as a console where games are concerned. How many times have you heard people say "I'd love to switch to Linux but I need Windows for games!"?

That's exactly what MSFT is trying to exploit. The truth is that for a lot of games, you don't need Windows in order to play them. Either there are direct ports to another platform or you can run them under something like Wine/WineX/Cedega. In the face of the "open-source threat," though, Microsoft has been trying to leverage the "Windows=Games" misconception to the utmost to stop people from switching to Free software.

Now, games that are enabled with 'Games for Windows Live' probably will work only on Windows. But those games are few and far between, and are usually Microsoft games.

No idea either way about these. I won't comment.

As far as calling it 'discrimination'. Come on. That couldn't be serious.

I agree. I don't think it's discrimination, but I do think it's less than completely honest.

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Well there you go then, even less reason to name the forum after this brand name. It's just like the stupid Nvidia and ATI branding they put on games. Nobody calls UT3 a "Game for Nvidia", that would just be stupid, but of course a lot more people would complain about that.

There is a difference between marketing and branding. You are describing marketing. This was an attempt to show people that game 'x' could run on their computer. Same as they know a game with a big 'Playstation 3' across the top is going to run on their PS3.

Go and look up discrimination in a dictionary.

You first. Discrimination means being purposely denied something. Are you being denied the games, the use of the forums, or anything? No. You just like to cry because your little distro of Linux isn't popular. Get over it, linux is never going to take over. Keep using it, but just deal with it. Windows is the OS of choice.

You are not being forced to be here, if you don't like it, just close the browser and don't come back.

You also can't use discrimination because you choose to use a certain computer program. Thats just plain stupid. Can I cry discrimination because GoToMYPC or logmein doesn't support my VNC clients? No.

Its very simple. You have the PS3 forum for PS3 games. The XBOX360 forum for X360 games. The Wii forum for Wii games. And the Games for Windows forum for -- you guessed it, GfW games.

Changing the name of the forum won't magically make the games run on Linux.

If clicking on something that says 'Windows' bothers you so much, I suggest seeking professional help.

I know it's an attempt to brand them together, but Microsoft directly benefits (in a way they arguably shouldn't) from the branding and the subsequent misconception that Windows is required for all PC games. It's one thing to brand Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo, etc. games together. The company made the hardware, maintains the hardware, handles licensing, etc. They "control the world," as it were, where their consoles are concerned.

<snipped the rest>

Oh I agree that they are using their position of power to profit on the deal by putting Windows on the top of every game.

However, this type of branding isn't targeted to someone on neowin. It is targeted to Joe Consumer who really doesn't know if a game will run on their new Gateway or not. And that same Joe Consumer has no interest in switching OSes anyway. They want Windows because its what they are used to, and what they can surf the net and go on youtube and facebook on. Does it stop those people from considering Linux? Maybe, but they weren't going to consider it anyway.

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Changing the name of the forum won't magically make the games run on Linux.

If clicking on something that says 'Windows' bothers you so much, I suggest seeking professional help.

I think the issue (which, again, I want to stress isn't personally an issue to me as I do 99% of my gaming on consoles) isn't whether or not Linux is popular, it's that the games that do run on MacOS, Linux, BSD, etc. are excluded from discussion in the GfW forum when a "PC Games" forum would do just as well to discuss Windows games, and also include the non-Windows computer games as well.

I don't like what MSFT is doing with the GfW brand, but I see the issue as it applies to Neowin more as one of awkward categorization than of so-called "discrimination."

Oh I agree that they are using their position of power to profit on the deal by putting Windows on the top of every game.

However, this type of branding isn't targeted to someone on neowin. It is targeted to Joe Consumer who really doesn't know if a game will run on their new Gateway or not. And that same Joe Consumer has no interest in switching OSes anyway. They want Windows because its what they are used to, and what they can surf the net and go on youtube and facebook on. Does it stop those people from considering Linux? Maybe, but they weren't going to consider it anyway.

The branding isn't targeted to the Neowin audience, I agree. The problem that the OP sees is that despite this fact, Neowin seems to have adopted the branding anyway and is following it as (it could be perceived) Microsoft would like.

Most Gateway/HP/Compaq/Sony off-the-shelfers aren't going to be interested in Linux, true, but you have the fence-sitters who may not be UNIX sysadmins but are still interested, however want to be able to keep gaming too. I think it's those people who a name-change of the GfW forum would benefit, since if they're interested in Linux they're likely to be closer to Neowin's target audience (especially since we have Shift and all) and thus more likely to visit the forums.

To put it another way, consider the question like this:

"What is there to lose by changing the GfW forum to a universal computer-gaming forum whose only functional difference would be the inclusion of more games that run on different operating systems?"

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Theres also not an Atari Jaguar games forum, or an OS/2 gaming forum. It's not to say either platform can't run games, but without a doubt, Windows, and GFW is the overwhelmingly popular choice for gaming on a computer.

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Nothing more then Microsoft Marketing and Certification

Games for Windows is a gaming platform and marketing campaign by Microsoft that dates back at least to 2005, and was revised in 2006. Games for the platform must meet certification standards similar to those of modern popular videogame consoles. The campaign aims to make video gaming on Windows operating systems as easy and accessible as on popular video game consoles.

The campaign has been promoted through convention kiosks and through other forums as early as 2005.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_for_Windows

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You just like to cry because your little distro of Linux isn't popular. Get over it, linux is never going to take over. Keep using it, but just deal with it. Windows is the OS of choice.

Here we go... :rolleyes:

This isn't even about Linux, or OS X. It's about the forum changing from PC Games to Games for Windows even though the latter makes no sense at all.

Theres also not an Atari Jaguar games forum, or an OS/2 gaming forum. It's not to say either platform can't run games, but without a doubt, Windows, and GFW is the overwhelmingly popular choice for gaming on a computer.

Yeah but those forums never existed. There used to be a PC Games forum and it was pointlessly changed into a subset of PC Games. The size of this subset is irrelevant.

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Yeah but those forums never existed. There used to be a PC Games forum and it was pointlessly changed into a subset of PC Games. The size of this subset is irrelevant.

Yeah, Mac users complained about that name because to them, a Mac is not a personal computer.

The Games for Windows name choice was arbitrary, and not related to a Wikipedia entry.

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Yeah, Mac users complained about that name because to them, a Mac is not a personal computer.

The Games for Windows name choice was arbitrary, and not related to a Wikipedia entry.

Well a Mac is a PC. I could say I don't use a PC I use Core 2 Duo, in a Lian-Li case or I use a Dell. It's still a PC and PC and Windows are not synonymous.

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How about "Computer" then? Technically consoles are computers but there's enough distinction in the public consciousness between consoles and general-purpose computers that it would work.

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"Games for windows" ensures a certain level of compatibility, way of the game working within a windows environment, and to the joe user, a way of recognising that this game is for his system.

And MS benefit from this?

SHOCK HORROR!

I see this becoming a big thing, as there has never been an single consistent brand for PC gaming. As such, it makes sense that Neowin follows it.

And your linux distro feels left out? Boo hoo. I am a big fan of linux and open source in general, but let's face it - it doesn't represent joe consumer right now. And who are game covers designed for? Oh yeah, the consumer!

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You can't be serious. Letting consumers know that the games are compatible with their system is rubbish, because as soon Microsoft push hard enough and DirectX 10 is used then all the current "Games for Windows" will be incompatible with Windows XP. Or hang on, maybe that's the whole point... to sell Vista, which then contradicts your other point of it being for the consumer and not for Microsoft themselves.

To be honest I couldn't give a crap about Microsoft's latest marketing scheme, that's not what this thread is about. How many times do I have to say this...

The forum was PC Games, a forum for games that run on PCs, regardless of whether it's a Dell, a custom machine or a Mac etc. and even more regardless of what operating system it runs!

I'll even repeat why "Games for Windows" makes no sense. About half of the games released (just a guess) are OpenGL. This is completely independent of Windows and any other platform. Both the Doom 3 and UT3 engines use OpenGL. These are NOT Games for Windows, they are Games for PCs. Nvidia actually release display drivers for Linux (they have for ages and so do ATI) and even FreeBSD! Do you really think they would do this if the Linux gaming market was as small as you think and Microsoft wish it was?

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What platform would you argue that over 75% of "PC" games are played on?

Games? For Windows?

Do you really think they would do this if the Linux gaming market was as small as you think and Microsoft wish it was?

Yes, 100% they would! But the Linux/Mac gaming market is nothing compared to the Windows market. Be real!

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njlouch - I think the point here is that while the Windows gaming market is a majority of the PC gaming market, it's not the whole of the PC gaming market. As such, it doesn't make sense to exclude all non-Windows discussion from the subforum because while they're not a part of the big slice of the pie, Lin/Mac/BSD/* games are still PC games that are played the same way, interacted with the same way, tweaked the same way, networked the same way, etc.

The similarities outweigh the differences, enough to warrant Mac and Linux games being included in the "PC Games" subforum as they're clearly distinct from console games and share many common characteristics (actually, just about all of them) with Windows games. The only real differences is that they aren't written in DirectX and don't use Lively Microsoft Live Windows OneGame Net.

On one side, you have console games. Custom-coded jobs meant to run on dedicated appliances in homogeneous environments. On the other you have games that run on commodity hardware of which there can be many variations but that ultimately all serves the same purpose. As I said earlier in the thread, hardware should be the determining factor more than operating system (which some consoles don't really even have). Closed homogeneous hardware (CHomH) can be divided up by manufacturer as there are few enough of them to be manageable. You can have a forum for Nintendo CHomH, Sony CHomH, Microsoft CHomH. Open heterogeneous hardware, though, has so many providers and variations that it would be impossible to have forums for it all. You'd have to have an AMD forum, an Intel forum, an ATI forum, an NVidia forum, a Matrox forum, a Creative forum, an Audiotrak forum, forums for Turtle Beach, Voyetra, Biostar, XFX, EVGA, MSI, ASUS, ABIT Gigabyte, the list goes on and on. There are even enough architectures to be impractical. x86, x86_64, IA64, SPARC, PPC, PPC970, ARM9...

What they all have in common, though, is that they power PCs. For all the talk and debate about Microsoft's marketing, it shouldn't really even enter into the equation. You have your custom consoles and your general-purpose PCs. PCs are so diverse that it would be an exercise in futility trying to make dedicated forums for each hardware base, so you lump it into "PC Games" and say to hell with operating systems.

The point is that assuming a reasonably common pool of hardware (e.g. not trying to hack Half-Life 2 to run on a Palm M505), there is no good reason to wilfully exclude Mac, Linux, BSD, and gamers of other platforms from the discussion. I say again, what is there to lose by including more people in discussion about PC gaming?

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Games for Windows is Microsoft's attempt at providing PC users with a somewhat similar experience to what console gamers have: all game boxes have a consistent look, installation doesn't require much intervention if at all; all the games should also provide a shortcut for the Game Center in Vista, should be widescreen compatible, and other such small but significant, consumer-oriented requirements.

It is also free for developers to join the initiative. Personally I wouldn't moan, in the context where consoles gaming is having so much success, every bit helps. If you don't like MS, too bad. Stick with OpenGL games :p

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Games for Windows is Microsoft's attempt at providing PC users with a somewhat similar experience to what console gamers have: all game boxes have a consistent look, installation doesn't require much intervention if at all; all the games should also provide a shortcut for the Game Center in Vista

I don't use Vista, the Game Center shortcut would be a non-feature for me.

and other such small but significant, consumer-oriented requirements.

The problem is that they're not consumer-oriented. They're Windows-consumer-oriented.

Stick with OpenGL games

I do.

For example, let's take Nexuiz.

-FACT: Nexuiz is a game.

-FACT: Nexuiz runs on PC hardware.

-FACT: Nexuiz will run on Windows.

-FACT: Nexuiz will also run on Linux, MacOS, BSD, and other operating systems.

-FACT: Nexuiz is not available in stores and does not carry the "Games for Windows" label.

Does this mean that it should not be permitted to talk about Nexuiz in the GfW forum? Or perhaps that only the Windows version of the game should be discussed? What if I have a problem with a config file on my MacOS version of the game and want to get help? Assuming I run an Intel Mac, we're getting very close to "universal and nonspecialized hardware." What is special about the Windows version of the game, or about games that bear a label that directly benefits one company to the exclusion of others (and the exclusion of noncommercial efforts like the Linux kernel) that a forum here should be dedicated to it whilst simultaneously disallowing users of other platforms to join in the conversation?

I'm not angry that it's Microsoft in particular that benefits from GfW. I'm angry that it's any one company benefiting when, if the subforum is a companion to console-oriented subforums, that company doesn't provide the hardware like the console makers do. "Windows" does not a closed, homogeneous environment make. Far from it. It provides a common characteristic but if you mean to tell me I can run Crysis on my Pentium 2 because said Pentium 2 box runs Windows and Crysis is a Game For Windows, I have news for you: it doesn't work that way.

Consoles are a uniform experience for a reason: the hardware is all the same, all the time. Recent consoles are doing away with that consistency and I do NOT like it, but for the majority of console history the hardware has been absolutely uniform. Windows, on the other hand, will run on everything from a 386 on up to an Opteron, and a game that runs on one set of hardware may well not run on another.

By the same token, my Opteron that runs Nexuiz under Windows will also run Nexuiz under Linux. Regardless of whether or not I'm in the majority in that I occasionally play a game under Linux is irrelevant because in this case, hardware and not software was the determining factor of how (and, indeed, if) the game would run. Unless Neowin wants to add subforums for "Games for Linux" and "Games for MacOS," it would be better to let hardware be the determining factor of subforum nomenclature as well. And for the nth time, THIS DOES NOT MEAN KICKING WINDOWS USERS OUT OF THE SUBFORUM. It just means opening the proverbial doors for users of other platforms as well and solving the problem of hardware diversity on PCs by having one forum for "If it runs on a general-purpose computer, this is the place for it."

For the third time (still unanswered, by the way), I ask: What is there for Neowin to lose by allowing users of non-Windows operating systems to join in discussion of PC games?

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Games for Windows exists to discuss... well... Games written for the Windows Platform.

The subforums (MS Consoles, Nintendo, Sony, GfW) were created to attempt for better organisation, not to exclude a particular platform from discussion - and this has never been the case. The forum was created because Games designed for use on Windows are a large discussion point. Mac, Linux, Etc should be discussed in the main Gamers Hangout forum. A subforum was not created for these because, as such, we have yet to see sufficient demand in order to create one. Just because we have happened to use the same terminology as Microsoft, does not mean this is a deliberate ploy on our part to assist them with their marketing. It simply made the most sense for the point of that subforum.

If there is genuine need for a Mac or Linux subforum, then we can create one. But until such a sufficient need is noted, it's not going to happen. I have seen very few threads in GH regarding either of these platforms.

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Kinetix: Okay. And what of reverting GfW to "PC Games" whilst still allowing the same amount of Windows-centric discussion? I'm thinking it would help separate game-specific discussion (e.g. my Nexuiz example) from general game discussion (e.g. the Jack Thompson thread, E3 threads, games in the news, etc.) in the GH main forum.

Dashel: Patently false. I myself am not a PC gamer (or do not consider myself to be one), but I know two people who are avid PC gamers and run various flavours of Linux. One is an Ubuntu user, the other (last I checked) ran Slackware. Both have single-boot configurations: no Windows partition for games.

Nothing against you or anything, just be careful with the generalizations.

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