Andre S. Veteran Posted February 19, 2008 Veteran Share Posted February 19, 2008 I don't use Vista, the Game Center shortcut would be a non-feature for me.The problem is that they're not consumer-oriented. They're Windows-consumer-oriented. Well that's your problem if you don't want to use Windows. Consumer-oriented doesn't necessarly imply all-consumers-of-the-world-oriented. I'm not angry that it's Microsoft in particular that benefits from GfW. I'm angry that it's any one company benefiting when, if the subforum is a companion to console-oriented subforums, that company doesn't provide the hardware like the console makers do. "Windows" does not a closed, homogeneous environment make. Far from it. It provides a common characteristic but if you mean to tell me I can run Crysis on my Pentium 2 because said Pentium 2 box runs Windows and Crysis is a Game For Windows, I have news for you: it doesn't work that way.I still don't see why that makes bad MS tentative at providing a more streamlined, consistent experience to Windows users. "Games for Windows" doesn't mean you can run it on any PC with any version of Windows, it means if your hardware is up to the task, like for every other game, then you can expect the game meets the following requirements: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173456.aspxLess headaches, more gaming. Dashel: Patently false. I myself am not a PC gamer (or do not consider myself to be one), but I know two people who are avid PC gamers and run various flavours of Linux. One is an Ubuntu user, the other (last I checked) ran Slackware. Both have single-boot configurations: no Windows partition for games.No Windows partition, but probably a Windows emulator (Wine). I don't wish to discuss anecdotal evidence, the fact is that Linux is a very limited software platform for gaming compared to Windows and most PC games are designed in DX for WinXP and Vista, the only way you're going to play them on another OS is when someone releases a port or a workaround which isn't guaranteed to happen nor to work very well. So if you love PC games but place avoiding Windows above all else, assume the consequences of your choice and save us your whining. PC gaming on platforms other than Windows is marginal and it's likely to stay like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Veteran Posted February 19, 2008 Veteran Share Posted February 19, 2008 Well a Mac is a PC. I could say I don't use a PC I use Core 2 Duo, in a Lian-Li case or I use a Dell. It's still a PC and PC and Windows are not synonymous. You're absolutely correct, and I had no part in this argument either way, but look at what Mac users have been given. When we buy games they say either PC-CD/DVD, or Mac CD/DVD. I agree...it's a PC, but the software industry has made the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borbus Posted February 21, 2008 Author Share Posted February 21, 2008 If there is genuine need for a Mac or Linux subforum, then we can create one. But until such a sufficient need is noted, it's not going to happen. I have seen very few threads in GH regarding either of these platforms. Any thread about UT3, ETQW, UT2004, Quake 4, even World of Warcraft is implicitly a thread about gaming on a non-Windows platform because those games are not Windows only games. A thread in the "Games for Windows" forum about ETQW is just as relevant to me even though I don't use Windows. So, there hasn't been ANY discussion about UT3 or ETQW in the forums? Are you sure? :p (Yes, I know, of course, that UT3 isn't out yet, this is unfortunate, but my point still stands). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wannes Posted February 21, 2008 Share Posted February 21, 2008 Yeah, Mac users complained about that name because to them, a Mac is not a personal computer. Is it not? :blink: As far for the games, I couldn't care less about the title as long as the content is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chode Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Well a Mac is a PC. I could say I don't use a PC I use Core 2 Duo, in a Lian-Li case or I use a Dell. It's still a PC and PC and Windows are not synonymous. don't consider a Mac to be a PC.Hi, I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveoc64 Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 don't consider a Mac to be a PC.Hi, I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC. Apple's definition of "PC" is really "Windows based PC". As a Mac user, I really support the Games for Windows idea. I see no harm in the forums, the majority of games being discussed here are for Windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theyarecomingforyou Posted February 25, 2008 Share Posted February 25, 2008 Linux is no closer to being a gaming platform than it has ever been. Macs aren't PCs, therefore were already distanced by the previous terms "PC-CDROM" and "PC-DVDROM". Titles under the brand "Games For Windows" are designed for Windows primarily, with support added in a minority of titles for other platforms - the subforum here is designed to reflect the Games For Windows brand. Linux support can still be discussed in the forum, even though the games are primarily designed for Windows. I understand your point of view but Linux isn't a gaming platform and therefore it's pretty irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejn Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Well a Mac is a PC. I could say I don't use a PC I use Core 2 Duo, in a Lian-Li case or I use a Dell. It's still a PC and PC and Windows are not synonymous. They are in practice. You don't see Apple commercials saying, "Hi, I'm a PC." "And I'm a PC." This is stupid. Leave it Games for Windows. As an aside, I'd love it if all PC games could be unified under the Games for Windows branding. It'd really help strengthen the PC as a platform to compete with the home consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borbus Posted February 26, 2008 Author Share Posted February 26, 2008 I'm opposed to Microsoft's marketing... so do you really think I give two ****s what Apple decide is a PC and what is a Mac? You people are wrong, "Games for Windows" will not strengthen the PC as a gaming platform, it will only strengthen Microsoft as primary OS vendor. With more and more people switching to Macs and Linux every day, it will only reduce the PC game market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chode Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 What are you smoking, Borbus? Cause I think you need to share, my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borbus Posted February 27, 2008 Author Share Posted February 27, 2008 Sour Diesel, but that's irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kylejn Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 I'm opposed to Microsoft's marketing... so do you really think I give two ****s what Apple decide is a PC and what is a Mac?You people are wrong, "Games for Windows" will not strengthen the PC as a gaming platform, it will only strengthen Microsoft as primary OS vendor. With more and more people switching to Macs and Linux every day, it will only reduce the PC game market. People are switching, yes, but not to the extent that you're implying. Linux and Mac will not be viable operating systems for gaming for a long, long time. In the future, if gaming is being done equally on Windows, Linux, and Mac machines, then it'd probably be appropriate to change the name of the forum at that time. But, for now, with Windows being the operating system of choice for a huge majority of gamers, it makes the most sense to use the Games for Windows branding for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borbus Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 People are switching, yes, but not to the extent that you're implying. Linux and Mac will not be viable operating systems for gaming for a long, long time. In the future, if gaming is being done equally on Windows, Linux, and Mac machines, then it'd probably be appropriate to change the name of the forum at that time. But, for now, with Windows being the operating system of choice for a huge majority of gamers, it makes the most sense to use the Games for Windows branding for now. Probably 2 years ago that is what people were saying about Firefox. Now if you make a website that only works probably in IE you will be universally regarded as an idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slimy Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Probably 2 years ago that is what people were saying about Firefox. Now if you make a website that only works probably in IE you will be universally regarded as an idiot. Definitely not universally, only in the tech community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveoc64 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I'm opposed to Microsoft's marketing... so do you really think I give two ****s what Apple decide is a PC and what is a Mac?You people are wrong, "Games for Windows" will not strengthen the PC as a gaming platform, it will only strengthen Microsoft as primary OS vendor. With more and more people switching to Macs and Linux every day, it will only reduce the PC game market. I think that GFW will strengthen the platform. It shows people what they can expect from a game at a minimum. It also makes the display of key things (like System requirements) even simpler. Your last paragraph doesn't even seem to have a point. So GFW will make Windows stronger, but people leaving Windows will cause the PC game market to reduce. What the **** does that have to do with GFW? The Mac isn't a viable gaming platform and Linux is even less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahhell Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Wow. You people get offended by the smallest things. Seriously, lighten up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticWhisper Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 I think that GFW will strengthen the platform.It shows people what they can expect from a game at a minimum. It also makes the display of key things (like System requirements) even simpler. Your last paragraph doesn't even seem to have a point. So GFW will make Windows stronger, but people leaving Windows will cause the PC game market to reduce. What the **** does that have to do with GFW? The Mac isn't a viable gaming platform and Linux is even less so. So say I custom-build a box. Dual-Opteron motherboard with a dual-core Opteron in each socket. 16GB of RAM. Twin GeForce 9-series cards in SLI. Maybe a mirrored RAID array of 10,000RPM Raptors. All plugged into a 1000W PSU, and all water-cooled. Basically top-of-the-line all around. And it's running a custom LFS or Gentoo install. Now, that satisfies the hardware requirements for just about any damn game anyone wants to release. Let's take "Doom 3" for example - that game has a Linux version available. Why should it be labeled "Games for Windows" when I can run it on an entirely Microsoft-free system? It's clearly a "Game for PCs" more than it is a "Game for Windows." So why should Microsoft benefit from the additional mindshare due to people thinking they need Windows in order to play it? As for there being no games for Linux, here's an exercise for you: -Download an Ubuntu LiveCD. -Open Synaptic. -Click the "Games" category and see what comes up. -If you really want to be wowed, enable the Universe and Multiverse repositories and then click on their games categories. Bottom line: Windows is not the only viable gaming OS, "Games for Windows" does not strengthen the PC gaming market but rather only serves to entrench Windows as the gaming OS of choice by perpetuating the misconception that it is required for playing games, and there is no good reason for developers to adopt the "Games for Windows" label when they can implement all the same features required by it and simply use the tried-and-true "PC CDROM" or "PC DVDROM" labels that have been around for ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicane-UK Veteran Posted February 28, 2008 Veteran Share Posted February 28, 2008 Dear god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borbus Posted February 28, 2008 Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 The Mac isn't a viable gaming platform and Linux is even less so. Oh? You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveoc64 Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Oh? You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you? Ok, I'm typing this on my Mac sitting next to my Ubuntu box. I can't get the big AAA titles for either of them easily and readily. That's what I mean by them not being viable. Technically, sure they can run games - but there's not enough of an install base and various issues prohibit it. Take the Mac, Apple's most popular model ships with integrated graphics - hardly game friendly. Their most affordable desktop model has an even worse graphics chip. Developers wont risk money on doing anything other than porting or simply using Cider to bring games to the Mac. As for Linux, I can't think of a game (as in a recent game with a large commercial profile) other than Doom 3 that you have mentioned which will run on it. If a game is Branded as "GFW" then it wont work on Linux PERIOD. If you are selling a game that works on more than one OS, then you brand it how you want - Apple does it with the "Mac Games" brand, but I don't see you complaining. -If you really want to be wowed, enable the Universe and Multiverse repositories and then click on their games categories.Bottom line: Windows is not the only viable gaming OS, "Games for Windows" does not strengthen the PC gaming market but rather only serves to entrench Windows as the gaming OS of choice by perpetuating the misconception that it is required for playing games, and there is no good reason for developers to adopt the "Games for Windows" label when they can implement all the same features required by it and simply use the tried-and-true "PC CDROM" or "PC DVDROM" labels that have been around for ages. I've just checked the SPM, and barring 1 game - Quake 2, I had heard of none of them. I have no doubt that the long list of games has some real gems in it, but my point was that commercially released games (which is all that the GFW titles are) are not released on Linux. They might come to the Mac, at which point they are branded as Mac games. You can't take a GFW branded game and put it on anything other than Windows - so the branding isn't spreading any lies, it's the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kupo-Cheer Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 First of all, a Mac is certainly a PC. In fact, the only general difference between a Mac based computer and Windows one is the OS, and the somewhat locked-in hardware configurations and outer stylings that come with a Mac. If you run OSX on non-apple "authorized" components (as I have in the past), would you then call your computer a Mac? Secondly, I can understand the want to change the subforum title back to just PC games, just because it is true that a select number of games can also be played on other OSes natively. However, just look at the title of this site: Neowin. Does that mean that, because Neowin covers non-Windows news and topics that it should be called Neo... err... tech? Although, this place still has its roots in the Windows community, so I figure they can take the name "Games For Windows" over a more generic one if they want. I mean, lets face it; there really is only one defining OS, at the moment, when it comes to gaming. It's a shame, but it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveoc64 Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 First of all, a Mac is certainly a PC. In fact, the only general difference between a Mac based computer and Windows one is the OS, and the somewhat locked-in hardware configurations and outer stylings that come with a Mac. If you run OSX on non-apple "authorized" components (as I have in the past), would you then call your computer a Mac?Secondly, I can understand the want to change the subforum title back to just PC games, just because it is true that a select number of games can also be played on other OSes natively. However, just look at the title of this site: Neowin. Does that mean that, because Neowin covers non-Windows news and topics that it should be called Neo... err... tech? Although, this place still has its roots in the Windows community, so I figure they can take the name "Games For Windows" over a more generic one if they want. I mean, lets face it; there really is only one defining OS, at the moment, when it comes to gaming. It's a shame, but it's true. Agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borbus Posted February 29, 2008 Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 Ok, I'm typing this on my Mac sitting next to my Ubuntu box.I can't get the big AAA titles for either of them easily and readily. So? Do you think that OpenGL or 3D acceleration is somehow dependent on the Windows kernel? Epic and ID's titles don't perform any kind of Windows emulation to work on Linux and OSX, they just run on the linux or mach kernel in exactly the same way that they work on Windows. Neither the windows kernel or linux/mach are designed for games, it doesn't make much difference at the kernel level. A kernel is actually completely transparent to the user. A user shouldn't even care which kernel they are using. So why are some games dependent on Windows? Libraries. Direct X. Good programmers don't use Windows libraries for their programs. Direct X is an option for developing a game, but it's not the only option because OpenGL is just as good and just as fast (Unreal 3 engine). So yes Microsoft have built themselves a pretty decent proprietary and windows only library as an alternative to OpenGL in order to restrict your freedom. Approximately 50% of games choose this route but 2/3 of the more popular engines at the moment (Unreal 3 and Doom 3/4 whatever the next version is called) choose OpenGL. Wine provides free alternatives to Windows and Direct X libraries on Linux and OSX but they aren't as fast or as complete because Microsoft don't provide completely specs for Windows and Direct X (I wonder why...). So it all boils down to Microsoft restricting your freedom and using aggressive marketing to continue restricting your freedom. So we come back to my first post. Should we, and should Neowin, support this? First of all, a Mac is certainly a PC. In fact, the only general difference between a Mac based computer and Windows one is the OS, and the somewhat locked-in hardware configurations and outer stylings that come with a Mac. If you run OSX on non-apple "authorized" components (as I have in the past), would you then call your computer a Mac? Exactly. Secondly, I can understand the want to change the subforum title back to just PC games, just because it is true that a select number of games can also be played on other OSes natively. However, just look at the title of this site: Neowin. Does that mean that, because Neowin covers non-Windows news and topics that it should be called Neo... err... tech? Although, this place still has its roots in the Windows community, so I figure they can take the name "Games For Windows" over a more generic one if they want. I mean, lets face it; there really is only one defining OS, at the moment, when it comes to gaming. It's a shame, but it's true. Neowin has its own Linux distribution now. The Linux and OSX areas of the site are very active. When I joined Neowin I used Windows. A Neowin user (me) switched to Linux some years after joining so a part of Neowin is now about Linux and OSX. I don't think the admins really want this site to be Windows only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNSBarry Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 You can't take a GFW branded game and put it on anything other than Windows - so the branding isn't spreading any lies, it's the truth. Football Manager 2008 says Hi. It's a Games for Windows branded game, that also has the Mac logos on the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiG- Posted February 29, 2008 Share Posted February 29, 2008 So? Do you think that OpenGL or 3D acceleration is somehow dependent on the Windows kernel? Epic and ID's titles don't perform any kind of Windows emulation to work on Linux and OSX, they just run on the linux or mach kernel in exactly the same way that they work on Windows. Neither the windows kernel or linux/mach are designed for games, it doesn't make much difference at the kernel level. A kernel is actually completely transparent to the user. A user shouldn't even care which kernel they are using.So why are some games dependent on Windows? Libraries. Direct X. Good programmers don't use Windows libraries for their programs. Direct X is an option for developing a game, but it's not the only option because OpenGL is just as good and just as fast (Unreal 3 engine). So yes Microsoft have built themselves a pretty decent proprietary and windows only library as an alternative to OpenGL in order to restrict your freedom. Approximately 50% of games choose this route but 2/3 of the more popular engines at the moment (Unreal 3 and Doom 3/4 whatever the next version is called) choose OpenGL. Wine provides free alternatives to Windows and Direct X libraries on Linux and OSX but they aren't as fast or as complete because Microsoft don't provide completely specs for Windows and Direct X (I wonder why...). So it all boils down to Microsoft restricting your freedom and using aggressive marketing to continue restricting your freedom. So we come back to my first post. Should we, and should Neowin, support this? Exactly. Neowin has its own Linux distribution now. The Linux and OSX areas of the site are very active. When I joined Neowin I used Windows. A Neowin user (me) switched to Linux some years after joining so a part of Neowin is now about Linux and OSX. I don't think the admins really want this site to be Windows only. But most titles are made with DirectX so whats your point? If a title is developed using DirectX then you might as well take advantage of any useful windows libraries. Such a waste of time for a thread, PC gaming is trying to move to a name, called Games for Windows, and you somehow think this is some ploy to keep everyone windows. Get a grip... its the name of a subforum.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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