Emn1ty Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 Bashing may be a strong word, but wanting Hideo to lose his job, telling world class developers they can't make games and stating that Sony force developers to fill up discs with blank space isn't really leaving room for "questioning". It isn't that they can't make games, but it seems they are going out of their way to fill up a disk that doesn't need to be filled. That's fair enough as an opinion, but I take the route of im not going to question a person in a field outwith my knowledge/boundaries where I have little to no experience (game developing) based on what my mind may think.I would be drawing conclusions from other games sitting around me on a DL DVD, instead of drawing conclusions from seeing games being developed and knowing what more space on a disc could let you do. I take my conclusions from general sizes of games as well as development knowledge. I have worked on several game projects myself, and have followed other game projects very closely. Halo 3 had thousands upon thousands of audio files. Ones that almost never come up even yet they are still there for the rare appearances they have. Even with thousands of audio files and tracks, the game still fit on a 9GB disk, and that is including MP maps and things like Forge. I never want to intrude on the developer's superior knowledge, but from what I can gather about the files used and the compression methods available for those files, I just don't see how he can take up so much space and still need more. It makes me think that rather than concentrating on making a good gaming experience that is balanced between player input, story driven scenes and decent play time to just using as much space as he possibly can just to fill the disk. I think he is a great developer, but he has his priorities mixed up. I'd still trust a developer, let alone the mastermind behind the series over the media or a bunch of gamers on a forum. The problem is many of the members on a forum like this are close to if not as knowledgeable as developers in the field. Some of them ARE developers in the field. Trends show games using more space over generations and there always has to be a game or games that start to carry on the trend and make the leaps to using more space.Again, some people probably started this argument when the first games appeared on DVD, instead of 3-4-5 cds. Trends are trends, not evidence. Just because games get bigger doesn't mean the rate of growth wont change, in which it has. The rate at which games have been growing has probably slowed since newer and better compression formats have been developed. Allowing for more content in less space rather than more content in more space. Games are no longer about size, but about experience. No one cares anymore if the game is 1GB or 500GB, just that the game is good. Which is why I don't understand the use of 50GB of space, since a decent game shouldn't need 50GB at this point in time. Some games today are almost overwhelming with the amount of gameplay they provide, yet they only take up 9GB of space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGS4-SS Posted March 5, 2008 Share Posted March 5, 2008 It isn't that they can't make games, but it seems they are going out of their way to fill up a disk that doesn't need to be filled. So you basically base your opinion on nothing but media news, your all supposed "knowledge" on the field, and guts. In the end, you know ****, thanks for playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emn1ty Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 So you basically base your opinion on nothing but media news, your all supposed "knowledge" on the field, and guts.In the end, you know ****, thanks for playing. I never said I knew everything. If you would like to challenge my knowledge though, try doing it with less cursing and more constructive conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 It isn't that they can't make games, but it seems they are going out of their way to fill up a disk that doesn't need to be filled. Whether it needs to be filled or not is irrelevant. I take my conclusions from general sizes of games as well as development knowledge. I have worked on several game projects myself, and have followed other game projects very closely. Halo 3 had thousands upon thousands of audio files. Ones that almost never come up even yet they are still there for the rare appearances they have. Even with thousands of audio files and tracks, the game still fit on a 9GB disk, and that is including MP maps and things like Forge. Irrelevant. I never want to intrude on the developer's superior knowledge, but from what I can gather about the files used and the compression methods available for those files, I just don't see how he can take up so much space and still need more. It makes me think that rather than concentrating on making a good gaming experience that is balanced between player input, story driven scenes and decent play time to just using as much space as he possibly can just to fill the disk. I think he is a great developer, but he has his priorities mixed up. Think about 4 games' worth of HD movies crammed together in a single game and you can easily see how that much space could be used. Why so many HD movies? Because they're providing the back-story for those who didn't follow the series so they're not confused about what's happening in the game world. In other words, they're focusing on making a good gaming experience. Games are no longer about size, but about experience. Okay, so what is there to complain about? No one cares anymore if the game is 1GB or 500GB, just that the game is good. Which is why I don't understand the use of 50GB of space, since a decent game shouldn't need 50GB at this point in time. Again, what's needed is irrelevant. If a company thinks they can improve the value of a game by utilizing the space on a disc and it won't hurt them financially to do so, they can if they want. I fail to see the big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 <<snipped>>Chillout, I know exactly what im saying. If texture quality is not high, it doesn't matter if a PC game is in 800x600 or 2024x1780... it will still look "bad". Pacman can probably be forced to run in 1080p on the PC, but it will hardly look "HD". err..what ? :blink: that's applicable to pc as well as ps3. So why suddenly discount only PC games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 You Sony fans sure are sensitive. It's also quite ironic that so many of you support people being able to say their opinions, and then when we do, you nail us to the wall. Thsi thread's a great example of it. It's really pretty sad. -Spenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windam Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 You Sony fans sure are sensitive.It's also quite ironic that so many of you support people being able to say their opinions, and then when we do, you nail us to the wall. Thsi thread's a great example of it. It's really pretty sad. -Spenser The same could be said about you guys as well We get emotional about what we own or what we hope to own and continue to expand. In the end we won't care, instead we'll reminisce over this nostalgia The debate of consoles has expanded so rapidly this generation due to the growth of our interoperable communications we get so much information and sh*t flies back and forth and distortion becomes abroad. We have to wipe through that cloud and get the facts straight if not we are all wasting our time here.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian M. Veteran Posted March 6, 2008 Veteran Share Posted March 6, 2008 Guys, the arguing stops here. Please discuss it sensibly without attacking each other every 2 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If we give it a year or two then we'll see more and more games using close to that 50gb mark, its just the evolution of games really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huleboeren Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 If we give it a year or two then we'll see more and more games using close to that 50gb mark, its just the evolution of games really. . Period End of discussion Thread can be locked now ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 You Sony fans sure are sensitive.It's also quite ironic that so many of you support people being able to say their opinions, and then when we do, you nail us to the wall. Thsi thread's a great example of it. It's really pretty sad. -Spenser Supporting someone's right to voice their opinion does not mean supporting their "right" to remain unchallenged—they have no such right because that would entail violating someone else's right to voice their contrary opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joker999 Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 just one of game? pffft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted March 6, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted March 6, 2008 err..what ? :blink: that's applicable to pc as well as ps3. So why suddenly discount only PC games? The only reason I ever brought up that point was because someone said PC games have been "HD" for like 5-10 years - Which is true, but they are nowhere near what we'd call HD standards of today due to their texture quality not really benefiting from 720p/1080p resolutions. You Sony fans sure are sensitive.It's also quite ironic that so many of you support people being able to say their opinions, and then when we do, you nail us to the wall. Thsi thread's a great example of it. It's really pretty sad. -Spenser At least a lot of us, while strongly opinionated, don't resort to name calling, slandering a whole race of console owners or saying reaaaally stupid things. You CAN have a back and forth conversation if you want to. I don't mind people questioning what's on the disc (as none of us know, apart from a few reasonable guesses), but I really think if anyone claims they can make a game better than Hideo/Konami they are going to get rinsed out unless they can prove it. Screaming "compression" at them, does not mean you can code better, or know what would've been better for MGS4. Also a lot of folk in here are totally demeaning of Blu Ray/Space in gaming in general - A lot of the arguments are based around that as some of us are trying to show others from trends, and these are trends that have existed for 5-10 years, not a month or two, that space has gone up for games over time. Therefore it's only natural to expect games at some point to start using more of a Blu Ray disk if it's available to them. It's a case of, if the space is there and developers can find ways to use it to improve there game and experience, good on them! - Why should we ring out a PS3 exclusive which has the luxury of using the space to dry? - Power to the developers. If the space isn't there, then as a developer you'll make a game that fits into your limits - Whether that be you cut levels/sounds/movies that we don't find out about (compromises), or whether that means whatever game you were making just didn't need that much space. Bottom line is, it is Hideo's game, and if that game has a ton of HD movies (from MGS1/2/3), then so be it! It's the way they wanted to make their game, and they seem to think we'll love it! Who are we to tell them how to make their game? A franchise which has been stellar for many years - I have full confidence MGS4 will be a cracker :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deaf Spacker Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I don't care how much space the game uses, I buy games to play them :) If Hideo wants to use 50GB then let him, why does it effect anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhon Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Lol 50gb not enough lol ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhon Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 "Bottom line is, it is Hideo's game, and if that game has a ton of HD movies (from MGS1/2/3), then so be it! It's the way they wanted to make their game, and they seem to think we'll love it! Who are we to tell them how to make their game? A franchise which has been stellar for many years - I have full confidence MGS4 will be a cracker smile.gif" It is always good to listen to the consumer. Need I say more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eXtermia Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I hope this is true. Then Konami should sack Hideo Kojima for spreading FUD because this is what this is (Obviously thats not going to happen)Maybe he doesn't want to use compression because of the space Blu-ray has and just use it all for the hell of it, but i agree, he should be moaning more about the slow Blu-ray drive and limited memory the PS3 has..... Just sounds like a way to promote MGS4 and build up the hype because this is what is going on here. Again, like i said i hope they do rip the disc image and exposed him for the liar he is. perhaps that is why no compression to compensate for the memory issues perhaps its not fast enough to uncompress the data and send it across (assuming it gets copied to the built in storage first) Or perhaps they are secretly using the game to offer some kind of new sony root kit technology that will spread across the internet to any internet connected PS3s :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted March 6, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted March 6, 2008 "Bottom line is, it is Hideo's game, and if that game has a ton of HD movies (from MGS1/2/3), then so be it! It's the way they wanted to make their game, and they seem to think we'll love it! Who are we to tell them how to make their game? A franchise which has been stellar for many years - I have full confidence MGS4 will be a cracker smile.gif" It is always good to listen to the consumer. Need I say more? What are you on about? perhaps that is why no compression to compensate for the memory issues perhaps its not fast enough to uncompress the data and send it across (assuming it gets copied to the built in storage first)Or perhaps they are secretly using the game to offer some kind of new sony root kit technology that will spread across the internet to any internet connected PS3s :) stifler, take note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geranium_Z__NL Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Holy ***** *** ** ***** how can this be?!? 50 gig for a game.. and STILL NOT ENOUGH !?! how idiotic big is this game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huleboeren Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 Holy ***** *** ** *****how can this be?!? 50 gig for a game.. and STILL NOT ENOUGH !?! how idiotic big is this game? Its not a game - MGS is the definition of art ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eXtermia Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 What are you on about?stifler, take note. of course it could be 20 gigs used as a one time pad to encrypt the data for drm or and copy protection or something :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted March 6, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted March 6, 2008 of course it could be 20 gigs used as a one time pad to encrypt the data for drm or and copy protection or something :p :blink: I know you're trying to be funny, but unfortunately humour lost out in this topic a long time back. I didn't write this, but I think it's a fair point. First premise to everything I've been saying is that gamers are not in a good position to even judge whether or not Hideo Kojima is justified in using 50GB of space - even after they play the game. It takes someone who's actually made a serious game(or worked on a project) to understand that the differences that sometimes seem huge to a gamer mean little on the technical side, and that sometimes differences that seem little on the gamers side are huge differences on the technical side. No matter what, developers aren't in a good position to predict what gamers will and will not notice so the most dedicated ones will adopt a simple philosophy that "every little technical thing can matter and therefore should matter."When you play a release game, you only see the result of decisions the developers made in the end. You assume everything was optimal unless the game is worked on for a lot more time. Gamers don't have a real comparison of what it could have been or would have been like assuming an entirely different set of decisions were made. The only person who knows that is the developer. The truth in fact, is that games are rarely ever the result of the best decisions. They represent a mix of things that were carefully planned out and foreseen and other solutions that weren't as well thought out but needed to be addressed. The decisions that weren't well thought out usually cause other hurdles later in development that I'm sure not everyone in the project is keenly aware of. Teams can decide to either hack around it, further limiting the possibilities and adding bugs somewhere in their engine, or they can rewrite perhaps a larger chunk of code to integrate the solution in a more stable manner. Being the lead in a recently finish game project, I can say with certainty that a number of developers that think they are fit for the industry insist on simply hacking in a solution even while they are "driven" to make a good game. So moving on to this specific case: Hideo Kojima has used 50GB of space. That is at least around 25GB more space than any other game in the genre has ever used. I hope you would at least agree (and not call it speculation) that if he used this much more space, it was towards some benefit towards the quality of the game. I'm not sitting here trying to convince you that this benefit is huge and will be immediately noticeable, but if you can at least agree on the idea that the extra space bring some benefit to the game, then there should be no questioning whether or not using 50GB of space was justified. Would you rather him simply say "I don't feel like doing that, I doubt anyone will notice the difference" and then leave it out? In fact, the questioning should be directed towards the other games that leave this space unused and don't reap some benefit from the massive amount of space they have. The fact that no one questions that group of game developers means we fully believe that whatever it is that they aren't doing, isn't worth it. There are a bunch of "could have" features and/or differences that we haven't even seen and yet we accept that they aren't worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megamanXplosion Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 "Bottom line is, it is Hideo's game, and if that game has a ton of HD movies (from MGS1/2/3), then so be it! It's the way they wanted to make their game, and they seem to think we'll love it! Who are we to tell them how to make their game? A franchise which has been stellar for many years - I have full confidence MGS4 will be a cracker smile.gif" It is always good to listen to the consumer. Need I say more? It's not always good to listen to the consumer. That's a nice little saying but no company actually follows it, nor should they. The consumer isn't always right—in fact, they're rarely right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
American Ninja Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 I don't care how much space the game uses, I buy games to play them :)If Hideo wants to use 50GB then let him, why does it effect anyone? 100% agreed:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted March 6, 2008 Share Posted March 6, 2008 stifler, take note. Yes, I'll be glad to take note on complete speculation as to why it may be, coming from people who aren't in the industry. You spent nine pages telling us that we shouldn't be complaining because we aren't in the industry and thus aren't qualified on the matter, and now you're telling me to take note of speculation from someone just as unqualified. Nice flop. -Spenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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