Why Xbox Live isn't free?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

What are you talking about?

I don't consider a griefer someone who rates someone else poorly. How on earth is that griefing? And, yes, above I did say that charging theoretically should prevent griefers. And, no, technically the rating system does not matter. All it does is make people avoided or preferred so you'll play with them more or less. Your rating does absolutely nothing other than that.

I don't understand what you're saying at all.

There's where we don't connect.

I just lump anyone as a griefer who acts like an ass online/is abusive/abuses ratings/team kills/annoys you, blah de blah blah....

[Xero]

Once a week? I play almost daily and I have never seen an irrelevant ad.

And Apple puts the consumer first?? Right, yea, by making overpriced short-life products that require expensive out-of-warranty repair fees? Hardly putting the consumer first. I'm sure many would agree here. That doesn't mean I don't like Apple, I'm willing to put up with their pricing and policies because I enjoy their products and find them superior, but please don't go and cry thief against Microsoft and not Apple/Sony when all companies are really just looking to make a profit. In all honesty, you're defining the word fanboy when you make comments like that.

Your reading too much into my comment, I know all companies are out to make money thats a no brainer, just some play a little dirty to get it whereas others don't. Also while we are talking computers, Apple machines aren't short lived. iPods/iPhones and what not are, that I will agree on, but their actual computers last quite a long time, longer than your average pc, but thats also partly due to the software. Regardless this topic has gotten so far off topic. The point I was trying to get across is, I think if you pay for Xbox Live, you shouldn't have to see ads, thats my 2 cents, or 20 dollars if you count all my posts up :) Now lets all take it down a notch, in the words of Frank Costanza, serenity now.

[LiGhTfast]

I'm not renewing this time, i never play online. I hate the way there are no dedicated servers and a proper server list like you get from pc games. Spend too long getting trying to find a match only to be laggy or kicked for being a lvl 10 when you need to lvl11+ etc its crap.

[Slimy]

But with Windows failing at the rate it is, I can't blame them. The 360 is their life preserver at this point.

:rofl: Wow! You obviously have no idea how much money Microsoft makes from its various products. Why do people insist on forming baseless opinions and telling them to the world?

[The2]

Even better question is, why isn't Live available in every country? :D

Sony FTW

[spenser.d]

I'm going to chime in about the ads - for the first two years of having my 360, the ads never showed up (still not sure why). They do now, and I've gotta say I like it this way better. Without ads, the dash looks quite a bit emptier and boring - the ads are generally always relevant and a lot of times let me know about things I find interesting that I'd never find out about otherwise. I definitely don't mind having them there.

-Spenser

[Ayepecks]

:rofl: Wow! You obviously have no idea how much money Microsoft makes from its various products. Why do people insist on forming baseless opinions and telling them to the world?

You're basing your opinions on facts and logic? HOW DARE YOU! :p

[stevehoot]

^^ Heh, Neowin is the only site I view listed and even then its very rarely the apple section, my post count there will confirm that. And I didn't mean a default install, I meant 1st party apps that are free. As for the Subway ad, I only saw it twice and it was last weekend. Normally they are ads for steering wheels, headsets, ect.

Try reading the second paragraph.. As far as your lack of vision, you must not play your xbox very much. I use it once a week and I see the ads. And I don't have a problem with Microsoft trying to make money, I have a problem with them putting that before the consumer. Look at Apples success over the last few years, they put the consumer first and look where it got them. I just find it offensive Microsoft would abuse their position to put ads on the dashboard after you've paid good money for the console, and XBL membership.

What the hell are you talking about? After having a 360 since launch I can't say I've ever seen an advert for anything other than content on XBLA/Marketplace or 360 accessories... subway? WTF?!

So you have a problem with a single ad that you have seen "twice" but are slating XBL for it.... wow - now there's a reaction! As with most adverts, I don't have a problem as they aren't exactly intrustive and are in context. I'd be annoyed if the ads were flogging a car or something - but stating a release date for GTA IV or highlighting I AM LEGEND on the movie service is hardly a problem. It's more information that advertising due to the close contextual nature of the advert to the gamer and the subtle nature of it.

XBL provides a number of advantages of the PSN currently in regards to the faster downloads, friends (which integrates with Windows Live Messenger), movie downloads (inc HD content), XBL Arcade, achievements, profiles, near daily updates on the latest news, competitions, music downloads, matchmaking, group chat, and extra content (GTA IV anyone?).

Until very recently, PSN has been a complete joke and just looks like an afterthought by Sony. I applaud their efforts to improve, as I'm a believer in competition and think that a PSN that matches XBL will either force MS to remove the minimal fee or to further improve live.

As mentioned earlier, Sony outsource their infrastructure while MS own it. This seems trivial, but it's the reason for the performance difference in the services and it also allows for MS to be more aglie with future development - only time will tell if they actual use it!

Side note:

And for the love of God stop going on about Apple. You want comparisions? How about how Apple have screwed over all their early adopters for their iPods compared to Microsoft's efforts of free firmware upgrades for it's Zune customers? Or the cost of ".mac" compared to Windows Live.

And leave the Vista bashing please - take a look at the Neowin home page for a sample of how "unpopular" it is. Or here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9..._as_of_2008.png

Or maybe:

"This fiscal year is off to an outstanding start with the fastest revenue growth of any first quarter since 1999," said Chris Liddell, chief financial officer at Microsoft. "Operating income growth of over 30% also reflects our ability to translate revenue into profits while making strategic investments for the future."

Microsoft?s businesses of Client, Microsoft Business Division, and Server and Tools grew combined revenue in excess of 20%, and experienced robust demand for Windows Vista, the 2007 Microsoft Office system, Windows Server, and SQL Server."

http://www.microsoft.com/msft/earnings/FY0..._rel_q1_08.mspx

Not all that rosy for the skinned BSD clone in a cheap & pretty x86 case at a gross mark up.

Edited June 19, 2008 by stevehoot

[dingnecros]

I hat3 s0ny di3 di3 die3 s0ny. W11 f0r t3h w1nz0rz. Btw I do pay for my xbox live. I have to say though that xbox 360 dash looks crowded and cluttered compared to the PS3 dash. Plus I have not forgotten sony for betamax, root kit, memory stick, MD and its habit of pushing proprietary standards on the consumer and charging an extra premium for god knows what. Gone is the sony of past where they had the excellent trinitron televisions, the walkman and the CD the new sony seems out to rape its customers using its brand awareness.

So looking at the past record of Sony I would not be surprised if they make PSN a paid service in the end. The evil entity that MS is has already proven that people are ready to pay for the service and that means more capital gains and the bean counters always like that be it sony or ms.

Heck if one of the top sony execs can say that if people want to buy the PS3 they can work 2 jobs, to justify the $500 introduction price then what is to stop them from saying that if they want to play online they can work 3 jobs. Such arrogance and disregard of consumer can only lead to alienation and ultimate failure of the company and product. By no standards there is any sony product on the market today that is not being beaten by a competitor

[EnzoFX]

Some people are grasping at straws... Why defend MS so stubbornly when it's CLEAR that they're xbox online business model is OUTDATED and WILL have to adapt... The more you guys defend it the more your proving to MS that they should keep charging for it, why in God's name you'd want that is beyond me. Get a clue!

Whoever sarcastically said "oh boo hoo, so MS is trying to make money"

Why on earth would you say that? Are you also going to defend a crack-dealer? He too is trying to make money. Doesn't mean he has everyone's best interest. Or that his product will be well received, or a good fit for consumers =P

Oh, and why bring Vista into this? Vista is not failing and can't fail because it's forced out through OEM's for better or worse. Join another discussion if you want to argue this.

Sony clearly made some mistakes with the year leading to the launch, but they're correcting most of them, and fast. I'll say it again, charging for online play is backwards thinking, we as gamers have no reason to support it or defend it. Whatever business model MS will "switch" to, should not be an issue for us. The online play itself cannot suffer as it's P2P so you guys have nothing to fear. What else is left? You think you'll get slow speeds on that tiny little update your downloading? or that little arcade game? MS caps arcade games anyways...

[Ayepecks]

I'm sorry, but nothing is ever "clear" in the world of technology. I'm sure people like you were saying the same thing about paying per month for MMO games when they fist came out. Guess what? We have plenty of free-to-play MMO games, yet the vast majority are still pay-to-play. I don't think either model is "outdated."

What do you mean we as gamers have no reason to support or defend it? We have every reason to support or defend it. Some gamers believe paying for a service essentially guarantees its worth, as it can be afforded to be updated and promise the best services available. Other gamers believe paying for a service violates something that they've come to expect to be available for free on the PC platform, so it should be free on all the rest.

I think both sides have compelling arguments. Clearly neither the PS3 or 360 is lacking on online players.

[strotee]

I'm going to chime in about the ads - for the first two years of having my 360, the ads never showed up (still not sure why). They do now, and I've gotta say I like it this way better. Without ads, the dash looks quite a bit emptier and boring - the ads are generally always relevant and a lot of times let me know about things I find interesting that I'd never find out about otherwise. I definitely don't mind having them there.

-Spenser

For fear of being a hypocrite, I pray you don't use Firefox with the Adblock extension.

[Ayepecks]

You didn't even read what he said, did you?

[EnzoFX]

It's clear when MS is the only one charging JUST to play online, oh and a unified friends list, that's all your getting out of a subscription. It's clear when it is the industry-norm across all forms of gaming. No, I'm not taking into account (or have before) MMO's, I've always excluded them, mostly because I don't care for them. If you realize that PC online gaming has been around much longer, it has more "experience" with this, and it has a more mature business model in place. I suppose MS' model was fine at first, Live was the first of its kind on consoles, and it was able to justify its price, but now it's just relying on people's ignorance.

If it were truly worth it, everyone who's a subscriber would be ever so happy to pay, there'd be no large amount questioning it or switching consoles.

What I meant by defending it, was that, What gamer would want to pay for online play? Knowing damn well that it's usually always been free. Hmm, maybe someone who loves google search would want to start paying monthly subscription for that?

Edited June 19, 2008 by EnzoFX

[what]

You didn't even read what he said, did you?

Did you? Because if you did, you'd realise what he meant.

[spenser.d]

For fear of being a hypocrite, I pray you don't use Firefox with the Adblock extension.

For one, even if I did it wouldn't make me a hippocrate, as most ads on the internet are hardly relevant, despite how much as the providers say they are.

For another, I use IE7 on my laptop and IE8 on my desktop. I don't mind ads on websites because most all the sites I visit either don't have them at all, or if they do, they're very unintrusive (such as Neowin's ads, assuming you're a forum member) and I can completely ignore them just fine without the help of a program to block them.

-Spenser

[Fourjays Veteran]

Regardless of other features or relevance, personally I wouldn't feel comfortable paying for something only to still get adverts.

[spenser.d]

Regardless of other features or relevance, personally I wouldn't feel comfortable paying for something only to still get adverts.

Then don't pay for it? Pretty simple, really.

-Spenser

[magik]

It's clear when MS is the only one charging JUST to play online, oh and a unified friends list, that's all your getting out of a subscription. It's clear when it is the industry-norm across all forms of gaming. No, I'm not taking into account (or have before) MMO's, I've always excluded them, mostly because I don't care for them. If you realize that PC online gaming has been around much longer, it has more "experience" with this, and it has a more mature business model in place. I suppose MS' model was fine at first, Live was the first of its kind on consoles, and it was able to justify its price, but now it's just relying on people's ignorance.

If it were truly worth it, everyone who's a subscriber would be ever so happy to pay, there'd be no large amount questioning it or switching consoles.

What I meant by defending it, was that, What gamer would want to pay for online play? Knowing damn well that it's usually always been free. Hmm, maybe someone who loves google search would want to start paying monthly subscription for that?

You talk like there is something currently available that is comparable to Xbox Live. There is not. Therefore, your argument holds no water. When PSN or Nintendo bring about a service comparable to Live, then we can discuss whether or not a fee is justified for Live. Until then, there is no point crying about it.

[Fourjays Veteran]

Then don't pay for it? Pretty simple, really.

-Spenser

Which is why I wouldn't (don't have a console yet which is why it was a general statement).

Why do people in console forums find the need to go so defensive over every single comment? :blink: You'd think their mother had been insulted or something.

Edited June 19, 2008 by Fourjays

[Brad.]

I have no problem paying for xbox live. If you made an online gaming service for customers and plowed YOUR money into it then you'd expect a subscription fee, no?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

I have no problem paying for xbox live. If you made an online gaming service for customers and plowed YOUR money into it then you'd expect a subscription fee, no?

Not expect when others do it for free.

That's a strong choice of words when MS are the only ones to adopt a subscription based pay-to-play online service I can ever think of in gaming. I've never seen anyone else charging you to play online (aside for MMO's).

It's offset by the fact they were the first to ever introduce something like Live to gamers, but times have changed and others have copied/are copying the system without charging.

MS have been charging for 5 years, have they not?

[magik]

Not expect when others do it for free.

That's a strong choice of words when MS are the only ones to adopt a subscription based pay-to-play online service I can ever think of in gaming. I've never seen anyone else charging you to play online (aside for MMO's).

It's offset by the fact they were the first to ever introduce something like Live to gamers, but times have changed and others have copied/are copying the system without charging.

MS have been charging for 5 years, have they not?

Again, you're making the assumption that others have a comparable service.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Again, you're making the assumption that others have a comparable service.

Valve do, Sony are trying.

but times have changed and others have copied/are copying the system without charging.

Valve have copied, Sony are copying and will pretty much have got there in a few weeks if FW 2.4 (In-Game XMB) gives us everything.

[BajiRav]

Valve do, Sony are trying.

Valve have copied, Sony are copying and will pretty much have got there in a few weeks if FW 2.4 (In-Game XMB) gives us everything.

Glad if it does but doubt if it will. It's an afterthought in whatever way you look at it.