soniqstylz Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 (edited) The PS3 is essentially two years into its lifespan, meaning R&D needs to have begun on the PS4, so it can be shown off in about two years, for release in about three years. Some ideas, advice for Sony, from a gamer / incoming developer's point of view: * Keep the Cell - I know this may sound like blasphemy, but developers are just now learning how to code for the multithreading that the Cell offers. Sony systems are notorious for being hard to code for, and developers are not going to be excited to have to learn yet another complicated processor setup. There are rumors that they are working on a Cell capable of running at 6 Ghz. Underclock that to about 4, and you have a setup that will run cool, needing less in the way of fans, etc. Also, this will keep Sony's famous backwards compatibility intact, something that gamers seemed to bitch about losing out on this gen with the introduction of the 40GB SKU. Sony's software, dev kits, and middleware will have matured greatly by this time, so development costs should not increase greatly. * 250 GB HDD - I don't envision another new optical technology coming along very soon, so I will assume that Blu-ray will still be the standard format for Sony gaming by this time. However, worldwide internet bandwidth should have greatly expanded, unless the internet companies decide to enforce charging for more bandwidth, but that's for another argument. My point is, DLC, streaming video, downloadable games, music, internet connectivity -- these are things that are coming into their own this generation, and will be commonplace for every game by next gen. Sony should introduce more and more downloadable movies and music from the PSN to co-exist with they're own Blu-ray offerings. Also, I think the ability to cache data on the hard drive has been a bonus for Sony this gen, even if some console gamers aren't used to it (PC games have done this forever, really, it's not that big of a deal). Although we know the real reason it's being done this gen, so we move to... * Minimum 6x Blu-ray drive - I'm not sure what optical solution Microsoft will use next gen, but I do believe that the idea of the DVD9 holding all that data next generation is ludicrous. In fact, you may see more and more installs beginning on the XBox720, if they in fact hold on with DVD drives and expanded HDD space. The space offered by a 50GB Blu-ray disc will be more important as audio becomes crisper, textures become more realistic, and levels and games themselves become larger and more expansive. But devs will need all or most of that space for the game, not for redundant data. So a much faster drive will be essential. By this time in Blu-ray's lifecycle, quieter faster drives should be the norm. * Overestimate memory - One of the PS3's biggest problems right now is memory bottlenecks. Imagine how much better PS3 games could be if they had closer to 1GB or memory instead of a split 512MB. Sony engineers seemed to have a good idea that games would require more optical disc space as time went on, but used a memory setup that is years old. I'm not even asking for a unified 360-like architecture, but future-proof your memory a little more. My current PC has 4GB of memory, along with another 640 VRAM. Obviously I am running a much more robust OS, but Sony wants the PS3/4 to have PC functions, so much more memory is essential. * Finalize everything by launch - The PS3 seems to be a testing ground for the PSN, development software, and everything new that Sony has tried to introduce to to playstation gamers this gen (XMB, PSN Store, etc.). All of this needs to be further tested and finalized by the launch of the PS4. These are things that are going to continue to be integrated into gaming itself, including user-created content and homebrew. Even Home itself will have to be a large part of the PS4 experience, seeing as there's no point in taking this long to develop something that won't even be used next-generation. * Unify your hardware - I'm about done with having multiple SKU's across a single generation. It's one thing to come out with a slim version of a console, alter the color-scheme, or have special editions. But multiple versions of the same console that have different hardware? That's just confusing. Come up with one version, make sure it is robust and future-proofed as much as possible, and don't sell it for the cost of a ****ty car. If possible, allow for alterations by the user (much like you can remove the hard drive on the PS3). edit: * Let developers know your plans for updates ahead of time - Sixaxis; 2D Trophies; Custom soundtracks. These are things that Sony supposedly "tacked on" late in development, and game developers were left unaware and did not take them into account. How is it that trophies are launched, and only about 10 games support them, and only one actually at launch of the feature? How is it that major titles like CoD4, GTA4, MGS4, DMC4, or any other "4" have not yet or will not incorporate this feature that Sony is touting, and will supposedly be incorporated into Home? Why is it that devs themselves were suprised when the Sixaxis was unveiled? Last minute additions or not, these plans should have been made to major developers way ahead of time, so that either it could be unlocked within the game, or quickly patched. I realize that 2.40 just launched, but we still have no idea how many (if any) major 3rd party games will be patched to support custom soundtracks, trophies, or anything else Sony may have up their sleeve. I reserve the right to add to this or even incorporate some of your ideas. Edited July 7, 2008 by soniqstylz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Dick Montage Subscriber² Posted July 7, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted July 7, 2008 Unify your hardware QFT. All the multiple SKU's (from both Sony and MicroSoft) in my eyes defeat the point of a console. Consoles used to be 1 hardware per generation per manufacturer - a level playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted July 7, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted July 7, 2008 Don't rush launch and make sure everything is ready. Seeing as the BR/HD war is over, and Sony will have a unified OS system for the PS4 (XMB/PSN) and networking system (Home), just more of the same really (next gen system with next gen hardware). Don't go chasing casual as the main port of call and I'll be happy. Not got a big worry there anyway, I still think the Wii is going to see it tough to face up against the PS3 over 10 years. I can see the PS3 selling for as long as the PS2 in stores, but I don't see the Wii selling for that long. Most, if not all of the issues with the PS3 came with trying to create everything from scratch and out of nowhere, combined with being a hardware company, not software. They'll get there though this generation, doubters ftl. ps. Pricing is an issue, but as I said above BR has won, therefore I don't think the PS4 will see the issues with pricing the PS3 has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJR1 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 PlayStation 4 in my opinion is longer than five years away. You have to look at 2013 at the earliest, even though R&D will be working on it right now, its highly unlikely they are going to show it to the public as it will undermine the PlayStation 3's credibility as a console, and may force some prospective PS3 buyers to wait for PS4. PlayStation 3 although two years old, is still finding its feet, its only just about to get its killer apps, such as LittleBigPlanet, KillZone 2, a new generation of Sport games. I mean its only got DualShock 3 recently enough, so it seems stupid to even be talking PlayStation 4. Too many people are discussing PlayStation 4 and Xbox "620" or whatever it will be called, give the current generation a chance, let it run its course, and lets see the best that the current consoles have to offer before releasing a newer generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popisdead uk Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Too many people are discussing PlayStation 4 and Xbox "620" or whatever it will be called, give the current generation a chance, let it run its course, and lets see the best that the current consoles have to offer before releasing a newer generation. (Y) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Too many people are discussing PlayStation 4 and Xbox "620" or whatever it will be called, give the current generation a chance, let it run its course, and lets see the best that the current consoles have to offer before releasing a newer generation. QFT PS3 came out about 6(?) years into the PS2 lifespan, can't see PS4 being unveiled till around 2011. anyone reckon they'll reach PS9 like in the ads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanshairo Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Im quite un-amazed by the specs u r mentioning here. Ok, the fact that its early to talk about PS4 aside, these r totally under-whelming specs for a next-next-gen. First, I would not accept any console to have a HardDisk Drive by 2011. Nowadays you can have a 16GB Flash memory for a 100$ so imagine in 2011. Having 250GB (is small, but) with a faster technology than HardDrive is the solution. Second, if the PS4 comes after 2013, I totally doubt it will have any optical drive. An optical drive limits the creativity of the programmer (as Heido Kojima NOW maximized that space). At that time average internet user will have at least 1Gbps connection (as I already have 10% of that much in my house and 100% of it in my laboratory) and thats more than enough to feature the downloadable games option, or maybe even stream the whole game over the internet!! (imagine? no piracy!!) 1Gbps means 1GB/8s which means 50GB (a blue ray drive) every 400s (around 7 minutes!). In that sense, say goodbye to the limitations of an optical drive. Third, this next gen introduced a fully utilized internet gaming or networking with motion sensing for the controllers. I wouldnt accept a next gen without another brilliant new idea. This is what I think of the next next gen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted July 7, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted July 7, 2008 ^ Oh boy you're going to be disappointed, haha :laugh: At that time average internet user will have at least 1Gbps connection Keep dreeeeeeaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budious Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I'm not going to pretend to be a hardware engineer, but the one point I would agree on is to keep the Cell architecture. I'm sure with refinements the clock speed can be boosted and it can scale to multiple core dies (2x PPU; 16x SPU) etc. It would be an argument to push ahead the PS4 release time frame to utilize a revised Cell processor before it would become obsolete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanshairo Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 ^Oh boy you're going to be disappointed, haha :laugh: Keep dreeeeeeaming. Dreaming? Which planet do u live on? Here in Japan, the only offer available for users is the 100Mbps connection, for less than 20$ a month, with unlimited download bandwidth. In 5 years I can clearly see that upgraded to 1Gbps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted July 7, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted July 7, 2008 Dreaming? Which planet do u live on?Here in Japan, the only offer available for users is the 100Mbps connection, for less than 20$ a month, with unlimited download bandwidth. In 5 years I can clearly see that upgraded to 1Gbps. Yeah maybe in Japan. But most of us are from America/Europe on these boards, and I highly doubt any of us are getting 1Gbps any time soon as an "average" as you put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashman Veteran Posted July 7, 2008 Veteran Share Posted July 7, 2008 In the UK, the the most you can get is 20Mbps for ?36 a month, that's $70USD, which is severely capped. Just because Japan has amazing broadband it doesn't mean the rest of the world does, and Sony needs to cater for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soniqstylz Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 QFTPS3 came out about 6(?) years into the PS2 lifespan, can't see PS4 being unveiled till around 2011. anyone reckon they'll reach PS9 like in the ads? 5 years. Sony tends to run on 5 years with a new console, and support the console for 10 years. PS3 being 2 years in (almost), PS4 should be around 3 years away from its own launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricardo Gil Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 * Enhanced Cell architecture: more cores, clock, maybe some virtualization support. * New top of the line GPU with 1/2GB of dedicated memory * 2GB of system RAM * Either 80GB SSD with secondary port for storage expansion, or just one upgradeable 1TB hard drive. * USB 3.0 * Two HDMI/DisplayPort outputs * 8x BluRay drive (maybe supporting 200GB discs) * 802.11N/WiMax * Chocolate bar dispenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sao123 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 The PS3 is essentially two years into its lifespan, meaning R&D needs to have begun on the PS4, so it can be shown off in about two years, for release in about three years.Some ideas, advice for Sony, from a gamer / incoming developer's point of view: * Keep the Cell - I know this may sound like blasphemy, but developers are just now learning how to code for the multithreading that the Cell offers. Sony systems are notorious for being hard to code for, and developers are not going to be excited to have to learn yet another complicated processor setup. There are rumors that they are working on a Cell capable of running at 6 Ghz. Underclock that to about 4, and you have a setup that will run cool, needing less in the way of fans, etc. Also, this will keep Sony's famous backwards compatibility intact, something that gamers seemed to bitch about losing out on this gen with the introduction of the 40GB SKU. Sony's software, dev kits, and middleware will have matured greatly by this time, so development costs should not increase greatly. * 250 GB HDD - I don't envision another new optical technology coming along very soon, so I will assume that Blu-ray will still be the standard format for Sony gaming by this time. However, worldwide internet bandwidth should have greatly expanded, unless the internet companies decide to enforce charging for more bandwidth, but that's for another argument. My point is, DLC, streaming video, downloadable games, music, internet connectivity -- these are things that are coming into their own this generation, and will be commonplace for every game by next gen. Sony should introduce more and more downloadable movies and music from the PSN to co-exist with they're own Blu-ray offerings. Also, I think the ability to cache data on the hard drive has been a bonus for Sony this gen, even if some console gamers aren't used to it (PC games have done this forever, really, it's not that big of a deal). Although we know the real reason it's being done this gen, so we move to... * Minimum 6x Blu-ray drive - I'm not sure what optical solution Microsoft will use next gen, but I do believe that the idea of the DVD9 holding all that data next generation is ludicrous. In fact, you may see more and more installs beginning on the XBox720, if they in fact hold on with DVD drives and expanded HDD space. The space offered by a 50GB Blu-ray disc will be more important as audio becomes crisper, textures become more realistic, and levels and games themselves become larger and more expansive. But devs will need all or most of that space for the game, not for redundant data. So a much faster drive will be essential. By this time in Blu-ray's lifecycle, quieter faster drives should be the norm. * Overestimate memory - One of the PS3's biggest problems right now is memory bottlenecks. Imagine how much better PS3 games could be if they had closer to 1GB or memory instead of a split 512MB. Sony engineers seemed to have a good idea that games would require more optical disc space as time went on, but used a memory setup that is years old. I'm not even asking for a unified 360-like architecture, but future-proof your memory a little more. My current PC has 4GB of memory, along with another 640 VRAM. Obviously I am running a much more robust OS, but Sony wants the PS3/4 to have PC functions, so much more memory is essential. * Finalize everything by launch - The PS3 seems to be a testing ground for the PSN, development software, and everything new that Sony has tried to introduce to to playstation gamers this gen (XMB, PSN Store, etc.). All of this needs to be further tested and finalized by the launch of the PS4. These are things that are going to continue to be integrated into gaming itself, including user-created content and homebrew. Even Home itself will have to be a large part of the PS4 experience, seeing as there's no point in taking this long to develop something that won't even be used next-generation. * Unify your hardware - I'm about done with having multiple SKU's across a single generation. It's one thing to come out with a slim version of a console, alter the color-scheme, or have special editions. But multiple versions of the same console that have different hardware? That's just confusing. Come up with one version, make sure it is robust and future-proofed as much as possible, and don't sell it for the cost of a ****ty car. If possible, allow for alterations by the user (much like you can remove the hard drive on the PS3). I reserve the right to add to this or even incorporate some of your ideas. I dont think you understand the term neXtGeneration... What you are describing sounds like PS3 MKII... Keep the cell?? I highly disagree... Im not saying ditch the cell to just do it... but you must replace it with something radically BETTER... It might be nice to keep the cell, if there were a much more advanced version of it then...like the difference between x86 and x86-64! Backwards compatibility is a nice goal,and very important to many users... but replacing the cell with the cell is just sort of underwelmging and screams of... why upgrade? Obviously developmental times & costs are a concern, but these can usually be negated by publishing the spec sooner than later... sony is notoriuos for releasing their dev kits to publishers very late in their dev cycle. Before i even go into your next group of topics... I need to say this one thing. While it may be worthwhile to play high definition movies and downloadable media content, etc etc, if it adds to the development costs then the fat needs to be trimmed. It is far better to have a machine that can do 1-2 things and be the best of the best at them, than it is to be good at everything and be expensive. Multipurpose machine are great in theory and concept, but utterly fail in cost practicality, and this is prominent throughout the history of technology. The PS3 failed this time because sony ultimately used it as a medium for pushing their blueray agenda. If the PS3 was strictly a gamaing machine, the design could have been simplefied, the costs and problems could have been minimized, and the machine could be as successful as the Wii. Now if you address all the other features (HDD vs Flash, Blue Ray Disc, vs Online Hosted, Memory) in the context of that which I wrote. Finally, as for multiple SKUs, again... you will always have different SKUs as manufacturing improves... but if you simplify the device to a machine which does 1 thing ultimately the best instead of a multipurpose machine which does many things well then your costs will be minimized and you will not need to have tiered product lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budious Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 The problem with radically changing architecture every generation is that developers have to relearn the programming process every 5 years. Keep the CPU architecture but enhance it and developers will more readily take advantage of the system, producing quality games with a speedier schedule and reducing overall development costs. The PS2 to PS3 development curve has been the major setback for this generation, we're only now starting to get a steady stream of good releases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acies Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I'd like to see games on sd cards or memory sticks instead of DVD. I'd imagine this would happen eventual, music, movies and games would be on USB memory of some sort... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soniqstylz Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) * Chocolate bar dispenser :woot: I agree, what I have described hardware-wise is more like PS3.5, but unless there is a radical shift in worldwide technology, I think Sony's best bet is to fix what is broken. Why keep the Cell? Biggest complaint on PS1/2/3 - very hard to program for due to unique CPU archetecture, many times very powerful but hard to harness. By keeping with what current playstation developers already know, and improving upon it (faster CPU, larger cache), current development tools, both scripting and software can simply be upgraded instead of scrapping and starting over from scratch. Edited July 8, 2008 by soniqstylz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 5 years. Sony tends to run on 5 years with a new console, and support the console for 10 years. PS3 being 2 years in (almost), PS4 should be around 3 years away from its own launch. What? Sony has made three consoles. I don't know how you can possibly put together an argument about what they 'tend' to do with a consoles lifecycle based on their history. There's not enough of it to make such an argument. The PS3 (and Xbox 360) are far more future-proofed than any previous consoles and I'd expect their life cycles to be at least 6 years, probably pushing 7 or 8. I mean the last we heard from a higher-up at MS is to not expect the next Xbox until after 2010 - that will give the 360 at least a 6 year life-span and the PS3 will at least be matching that life-span. I wouldn't expect another Playstation until at least 2012. But if you want to know what I think, I think the biggest improvement they can make is to keep their mouths shut about PS4, and not keep spewing crap they can't deliver on. That's why their launch was such a disaster. -Spenser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoFX Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I think ppl are being too hard on Sony for the supposed issue of "Tacking on" features... Features these days are dynamic, they will continue to be added throughout a console's lifespan. This will be the norm with future consoles, and only wasn't before because it wasn't viable at the time. This is also the reason Sony is playing "catch up." Afterall, Live took sometime to get to where it is today, or even to where it was @ the 360's launch. Re: PR I think Sony has progressed greatly. So hopefully they won't be touting nonsense leading up the PS4's launch. I mean, look at all the great strides they've made. They no longer portray themselves as "elite" and are pretty hush hush about upcoming features until close to release time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ji@nBing Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Most of the advice I'd give has already been said, but I'd add that they should make sure there is a GPU made from the ground up for the PS4 this time. Don't just throw in a PC GPU at the last minute. On a similar note, all the hardware should be tailor made and optimized for gaming, so developers can get the most out of the hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnzoFX Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Im quite un-amazed by the specs u r mentioning here. Ok, the fact that its early to talk about PS4 aside, these r totally under-whelming specs for a next-next-gen.First, I would not accept any console to have a HardDisk Drive by 2011. Nowadays you can have a 16GB Flash memory for a 100$ so imagine in 2011. Having 250GB (is small, but) with a faster technology than HardDrive is the solution. Second, if the PS4 comes after 2013, I totally doubt it will have any optical drive. An optical drive limits the creativity of the programmer (as Heido Kojima NOW maximized that space). At that time average internet user will have at least 1Gbps connection (as I already have 10% of that much in my house and 100% of it in my laboratory) and thats more than enough to feature the downloadable games option, or maybe even stream the whole game over the internet!! (imagine? no piracy!!) 1Gbps means 1GB/8s which means 50GB (a blue ray drive) every 400s (around 7 minutes!). In that sense, say goodbye to the limitations of an optical drive. Third, this next gen introduced a fully utilized internet gaming or networking with motion sensing for the controllers. I wouldnt accept a next gen without another brilliant new idea. This is what I think of the next next gen. For trying to make it future proof, you seem to be making a seriously bad assumption Your assuming game size won't change. Furthermore, the limitations of an optical format? What if there's a newer format that reads faster than the 1gbps speed internet connection we'd supposedly have? Hey it could happen. This is particularly the reason some ppl say we'd never have purely DL'able games (Or at least not for a good, long while). Just saying... =P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted July 8, 2008 Subscriber² Share Posted July 8, 2008 What? Sony has made three consoles. I don't know how you can possibly put together an argument about what they 'tend' to do with a consoles lifecycle based on their history. There's not enough of it to make such an argument.The PS3 (and Xbox 360) are far more future-proofed than any previous consoles and I'd expect their life cycles to be at least 6 years, probably pushing 7 or 8. I mean the last we heard from a higher-up at MS is to not expect the next Xbox until after 2010 - that will give the 360 at least a 6 year life-span and the PS3 will at least be matching that life-span. I wouldn't expect another Playstation until at least 2012. But if you want to know what I think, I think the biggest improvement they can make is to keep their mouths shut about PS4, and not keep spewing crap they can't deliver on. That's why their launch was such a disaster. -Spenser The PS1 lived for 10 years (Dec 3 1994 to March 2005), and the PS2 has currently being going for about 8 or 9. If these consoles are more future proof you'd expect them to do more than 6 :blink: Unless by life cycle you mean the point in which a new model is introduced, which I think you do ;) That's not lifespan then, the lifespan is how long the console sells in retail/is still supported (Y) Just saying as it confuses me when you say life cycles of 6, 7, 8 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Teej Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Most of the advice I'd give has already been said, but I'd add that they should make sure there is a GPU made from the ground up for the PS4 this time. Don't just throw in a PC GPU at the last minute.On a similar note, all the hardware should be tailor made and optimized for gaming, so developers can get the most out of the hardware. From what I heard, they were going to throw in another Cell Processor as their GPU, but then they realised it wasn't ready for such a task, so they had to scrap it. Methinks the Cell as a GPU is very probable in the PS4 (I'd love to see a dual Cell setup in the PS4). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budious Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I think whatever they do, the lesson learned from PS3 is that incorporating two generations of hardware for backwards compatibility is not economically feasible in a competitive market. Emulation has it's short comings, so the best solution is to expand the architecture of PS3 so that all games are executed natively with the hardware instruction sets and that PS4 becomes a superset of instructions and API. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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