Longhorn, the future of MS:

[Knight']

It's good to see such strong opinions on this matter, because in my opinion, this is a very serious matter - what Microsoft want to do is reinvent the PC as we know it today.

EDIT: Oh and Daz, Im going to switch to Mac now :D - doing away with Microsoft and Palladium rigged chips. That nice 17" Powerbook for sixth form, but $2200.00!! :o

[hyperb0le]

#3 - The internet will be locked down completely, only 'trusted' computers (those that are running palladium) may access it.

Can not legally happen. If this were the case, it would mean that alternative OSes like MacOS and linux would have to update to support palladium. This would be solid proof (as in, solid enough for the courts) to prove that Microsoft has a monopoly, since whatever the do would have to be followed.

Also, i cant imagine the courts would let this be too big a deal, because if computers have to be "Trusted" to view docs, it would make it way too easy for things like the Enron incident to pass by unnoticed.

Although, depending on how much palladium really does effect us, MacOS may win a lot of switchers.

[Osiris]

In all honesty I think Palladium or Trusted computing whatever they call it, will be good for the average user.

All this talk that MS is going to use it to control all legal aspects of it is Bull crap. MS is big but they arent the Chineese government, they cant force whatever they want down our throats.

Really who would stand by and use and purchase hardware/software that doesnt let them do half the crap they want to?

MS and its partners it signed up on this, Intel, AMD etc, all have too much of a reputation at stake. MS isnt going to force a "COntrolling" Palladium on people as the backlash against MS, and Intel, AMD etc would be too damaging. The government woul dbe the only one happy with this setup, and unforuntely for Free Market societies consumers control how a product suceeds and fails.

The overall security advatnages of Palladium are incredible, Being able to surf the net while your files are tucked away safely, having complete control over waht applications have access to your secure data, and what programs can send recieve, and what information they can send out via the net.

Its like a giant Firewall for your own PC.

Microsoft have too much riding on this, and yes potentially the RIAA could use it to stomp out illegal Mp3s a little, MS has said Palladium will not affect programs not designed for it, so unless they release a Palladium Winamp that doesnt let you play copyright Mp3s, your gonna be pretty safe etc.

Also I like the other features like being able to send email that will delete itself after the person reads it, or documents that will delete themselves after x days etc, or documents that wont let you copyand paste material from them, so many fun lil advantages

Not to mention the control this will give companies. It will be a great help to Companies who keep getting busted because F**Kwit employees keep putting illegal crap on their PC's. not with Palladium they wont be.

Look all in all, I think the Anti-Microsoft sentiment, combined with the Pentagons Total Information Awareness program has just led to alot of rumours, that MS and the government is out to control people.

But again I have no proof of what it will and will not do exactly as I have only read 12 articles/documents both for and bias, and read what MS has published on it, so this is just what I pulled out of those articles etc, that form my opionion.

But realistically there was a massive thread on this a while back, it seems to be almost religious when ppl seem to make up their minds on matter regarding MS they close their minds and dig their heels in. Which is fine, I guess well see who is right in a year or so when we know alot more. Until then just dont spread B/S crap to people who are reading these forums trying to learn about it.

[HariSeldon]

I think I'll chime in, but I don't want to be lambasted by angry users :)

Also I like the other features like being able to send email that will delete itself after the person reads it, or documents that will delete themselves after x days etc, or documents that wont let you copy and paste material from them, so many fun lil advantages

I'm afraid I don't consider this a 'fun advantage'. While these features are useful in a corporation, they don't need to be loosed upon the Internet as a whole. Why should someone else have control over how many times I can read my e-mail? I'm merely refuting your example, not speculating about the capabilities of Longhorn.

Personally, I'm saddened by the trend of PCs becoming 'idiot-proof'. It seems as if PCs are becoming a commodity much like VCRs. Hard to program, but everyone needs one. I'm picturing Longhorn as another step in this direction. I picture this trend as a bell curve -- at the extreme left is Windows 3.11, extremely unfriendly, not easy to be productive with. At the top will be the operating system (for me) that perfectly balances the extremes. It will be at once stable, fast, and will contain a minimal amount of hand holding, while maintaining an ease of use. Could Windows XP be that operating system? It is stable, fast, has some hand-holding, but still contains all the power tools. Only time will tell. I won't judge Palladium until I see it in action. One last concern with Palladium is the hardware component. The rapid propagation of desktop computers was due to generic hardware. If hardware is introduced that requires Microsoft/Intel/AMD to embed some proprietary encryption support, what will happen to the generic hardware market? These are my thoughts and opinions, and I encourage structured debate. It is a sign of true education :)

[persianpsycho]

microsofts not that hardcore

[Osiris]

Yes these are novel features for individuals, do you realise how many features are on XP alone that have no real use for people. The fact is maybe 1 outta 10 people will use a feature like that, but still its something to say about the OS and something to beef it upo and make it sell for more.

If we could cut the crap we dont need out of it, do you think Windows Moviemaker would still be on anyones XP system?

[NeoMayhem]

Microsoft have too much riding on this, and yes potentially the RIAA could use it to stomp out illegal Mp3s a little, MS has said Palladium will not affect programs not designed for it, so unless they release a Palladium Winamp that doesnt let you play copyright Mp3s, your gonna be pretty safe etc.

If non palladium programs can run, then there is no point to it, because other apps could alwas get the data and do exactly what you are not suppost to do :p

If we could cut the crap we dont need out of it, do you think Windows Moviemaker would still be on anyones XP system?

Movie Maker isnt on my computer :p I want a to pick the apps I use, and I use Premier for my video editing :p

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

If non palladium programs can run, then there is no point to it, because other apps could alwas get the data and do exactly what you are not suppost to do :p

Exactly Neo thank you.

See read my post on the page before. If you can show me how Palladium can work without being changed from use if you want it, to always have to use, I'm all ears.

The truth is that palladium in longhorn will be weak, and the next version will be more powerful, andafter that, game over.

[Osiris]

Umm okay then there is no point to it?

then why is there an option to run Windows in Palladium mode on or off?

Just because Palladium is turned off doesnt mean the Security of it is neutralised. If you used a Palldium version of MS Word, it would save your documents to a secure portion of the HDD, where it would be locked away and encrypted until the MS WOrd palladium app was relaunched or another Palladium application with permission to access that particular "vault" was used.,

Therefore there is still plenty of point to it.

Palladium is aimed at you controlling your data

Just because Windows Media Player on Palladium might not let you play copyrighted mp3's doesnt mean it would block you from using an non palladium application to play copyrighted ones. The only difference is the non palladium app your using wont have the security benefits of the Palladium based media player.

The mp3s is a bad example but alot of people are worried about it to the point that MS covers it in its whitepaper and FAQ.

The Fact is Palladium is designed for security and data vaults with excryption keys and nexuses to retrieve and manage them. Not primarily for doing the RIAA's dirty work.

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

But see if it weren't meant to go mainstream, then it wouldn't need to be on EVERY motherboard. Almost every motherboard has more than one version out with less features, if only a small minority of users are ever planned to use this then why the need for it to be on everything? There's a reason why SCSI isn't built in to all systems(aside from price), a reason why gigabyte ethrnet isn't included in mobo's, 64bit pci slots, etc etc, and thats because the vast majority of users don't need or want them. It should have been the same for palladium. It'd be like the government putting GPS in your car, saying that you can turn it on if you want, but it's your choice. Obviousely they wouldn't push to put it in there in the first place, if they didn't have a plan for it later.

And lets face it, this has less to do with security and more so with protection of media content.

And how can one control thier data when they have no real control over it?

[Osiris]

Okay see this is where we have problems

You blatantly align MS with some government control scheme, thats your rationale, and thats why your view is bias, because youve brought into that whole control propaganda.

Anyway much like the other thread, im not going to get too involved here the fact is, the industry giants are backing it, there will be strong standards with the hardware for it, so the scenario you describe in the first part is somewhat redundant.

The simple fact is Palladium will happen

As much as you all want MS to be this big bad corporation its not going to happen to with Intel and AMD's reputations on the line.

Also I have to question how many of you have studied, the Microsoft FAQ and Whitepaper. Have you actually taken the time to read the diagrams outlined in them? I mean really taken the time to READ them not jus tlook at them. Palladium is far more complex then I think alot of people realise.

Dont get me wrong im not the definitive Palladium source or something but I was planning on writting a massive article on Palladium at one stage, so I compiled alot of source material and read it alot, so im just saying I have some idea what im talking about here, from the information thats available.

But realistically we can sit here and yell at the rain with each other till the sun comes home fact is most of you have already made up your mind if Palladium will be good or bad by now so trying to inform or persuade you to open your minds is pretty futile.

I guess we will just have to wait and see how Palladium goes when the further unveil it.

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

Haha, no I don't think it's some complex government backed Orwellian conspiracy put into affect by the New World Order to convert control of all the worlds PC's to the Free Masonists.

I just think this is primaraly a means for Microsoft and other vendors to control thier content on users pc's. Many people are still running windows 98, and NT. Eventually Microsoft will run out of people to sell a license to. Add to that the fact that piracy is real, and eventually thier profits will start to get smaller. Microsoft has already mulled over charging users a subscription fee instead of a license fee for alot of thier products. This would be great for them as it would be constant revenue, and they would only have to support one codebase, i e they wouldn't have to make patches for w98, ME, NT, 2000, XP, Longhorn, etc. Since you'd be paying for a subscription, when these products reach thier end of life, MS would just move you to a new one. Your paying for it anyways. Alot of vendors would like to go this route. It equals more money for them, less resources spent supporting older software, and more control over legitamate uses of thier software.

Second for digital media to ever come fully to the pc in a legal form it will have to be in some form of protected format, to keep piracy at a minimum. If that isn't in place the major labels will not back it fully, and it just won't happen. So thats another thing Palladium will help usher in.

Third, anonyminity on the net will most likely come to an end. It has to for the evolution of web services to come into play.

Digital TV has to be in effect US wide by the end of the decade. These TV signals are protected as well, I can guarantee you that the only way that you'll be able to watch digital tv in the US will be with some kind of palladium solution. Not now, not at first but thats what'll happen. Fox doesn't want you recording simpsons and sharing them with your friends sans commercials. So that'll be new viewing software I'll need, and a new tuner card.

So palladium isn't going to ruin my life or anything but is going to bring alot of changes I don't like. Eventually there'll be no more running the same old OS for 4 years, it'll most likely be subscription based. A subscription model just wouldn't work or be enforcable without palladium. So there's some cash outta my pocket every year.

I'll have to buy a new music player, because whatever system does finally get put in place for content distribution, you can bet the current players wont be compatable. Again more money that I could use elsewhere.

On the upside though it probably will make a good dent in piracy, unlike WPA, assuming it works when it becomes standard, so now these companies will have to come up with another excuse for high software proces hehe. But agreed getting rid of piracy is a good thing.

All paladium is is a change in the way I'll do things that I don't really like. I'm happy with my old dvd software, happy with quicktime 5 pro, happy using my computer as a vcr.

[Jiles]

EDIT: Oh and Daz, Im going to switch to Mac now :D - doing away with Microsoft and Palladium rigged chips. That nice 17" Powerbook for sixth form, but $2200.00!! :o

Apple is a good choice because they don't support Palladium. Yet!

[kowcop]

it will be welcomed with open arms by the corporate environment and the server family. Wether it is for the home user is another story.. you should be at least given the option of turning paladium on or off. Like the internet connection firewall. use it if you want, but dont ring support if you don't :0)

[Glowstick]

If non palladium programs can run, then there is no point to it, because other apps could alwas get the data and do exactly what you are not suppost to do :p

Get the latest Win32 SDK and read up on DPAPI. :hmmm:

[Glowstick]

And for the last time:

TCPA and Palladium are about secure execution and secure datastorage, NOT about controlling your computer remotely!

Everyone implies that the allmighty gov's will pwn your computers via TCPA and Palladium. That's some FUD created on the Internet.

[the evn show]

I live in a communist country (canada) where we're charge ~30c/ blank cd (and %2.50 on a minidisc) as a tax that is send directly to the recording industry. Ignoring the fact that a tax should go into general revenue and not to major companies as a payment, this tax is suppposed to buffer the recording industry from losses due to piracy. Even if that cd is used to hold a backup copy of your homework or that minidisc holds the music of your own garage band i'm still shoveling money into the record lables pockets. Furthermore: Microsoft, Adobe, Macromedia, and others claim billions of dollars a year in software piracy. The MPAA claims similar figures for people bootlegging movies.

As we all know software piracy effects everyone (mostly those who buy software) by raising the price for all of us, so Palladium is going to be a great thing! If it's even half as effective as microsoft says it will be then all of these companies can recoupe millions/billions of dollars a month in lost revenue and pass those savings on to us!

If 2x as many people PAID for photoshop or dreamweaver (did you?) and adobe/macromedia reduced the price accordingly then my student copy of dreamweaver MX would have only cost $50 -> less than the price of a video game. The price of windows can drop, office, photoshop: computing might actually become affordable for the working-poor (aka: college students).

There is of course the other two options:

1) palladium doesn't work at all and nothing changes

2) palladium works as advertised but companies maintain their old pricing model and gouge the crap out of everyone for some other excuse.

[Joel]

I live in a communist country (canada) where we're charge ~30c/ blank cd (and %2.50 on a minidisc) as a tax that is send directly to the recording industry.

Read more on the subject before you make claims like this, do you think Canada is the only country that does this?

http://neil.eton.ca/copylevy.shtml

[Joshie]

I would imagine music is pirated far more often than computer software. Whether it be via the internet or even by making a cassette recording from the radio. This has been going on for quite a long time, and I think if prices rose because of piracy, then the recording industry wouldn't have gotten in trouble for price-fixing like they did.

I think an increase in software cost due to piracy is just a myth.

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

Personally I believe that high prices due to piracy are a myth.

I think most people who pirate would never purchase the software anyways, so if they couldn't pirate they would just move to something else.

[Osiris]

Thats B/S

People only pirate because they have ACCESS to it.

Games, you can just hire them or borrow themand burn them

DVD's Hire them, borrow them decode them, and re-encode em to divx, or if you got a DVD Burner, even simplier.

Applications, 10000000 warez sites, and ftps

Music gees 100000000000ways to download it

Piracy levels have increased 50x in the last 8 years alone. Generally the scales have remained balanced but in recent years those scales have tipped insermountably in favour of piracy.

Whilst I dont believe Palladium will stop people from downloading mp3s etc, I do believe that top level applications like Adobe, MS, and soon after its releases Games, will prevent alot of piracy from occuring.

And its probably about time this happened. I dont think by any stretch of the imagination Palladium will rid us of Piracy but for high level brands I think it will definitely balance the scales out a little better.

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

Oh I agree that piracy has increased because of the internet, broadband, writeable media and such.

I think if someone pirates something without the intention of ever buying it then it's not a lost sale. If someone had the intention of buying, and srtill pirated then yes that is a lost sale. I personally don't have any way of knowing for instance how many people, if couldn't have pirated XP would have bought XP for example.

But I did generalize too much because there's also someone who would have purchased it as well, if they couldn't pirate it.

I just think that software companies use piracy as an excuse for higher prices when I don't think it contributes to as much lost sales as they claim.

[Osiris]

i guess because there is no statisics on it well never knows whos right or wrong here i do see your point

but id be inclined to think that the number of people who wouldnt buy it isnt alot lower then those that would

the game hiring places and dvd hiring places are the killers i believe.

I love them myself, but yeah cpl dollars to hire em, then cpl for cd's/dvdr's how much easier do you want it?

Microsoft and Lucas Arts are right not to hire out their games.

Then again just because I know ppl that do abuse the hiring system doesnt mean everyone does it, they might only account for 1% of all ppl that hire. But I just think the places at times make it very convenient.

[mAcOdIn Veteran]

the game hiring places and dvd hiring places are the killers i believe.

I love them myself, but yeah cpl dollars to hire em, then cpl for cd's/dvdr's how much easier do you want it?

Microsoft and Lucas Arts are right not to hire out their games.

Then again just because I know ppl that do abuse the hiring system doesnt mean everyone does it, they might only account for 1% of all ppl that hire.  But I just think the places at times make it very convenient.

Haha, not sure what you mean by hiring, is that like renting? If thats what you mean then yeah I agree, all the stores around me quit doing that years ago once the cd burners came out, and I can see why.

I do wanna add though that whether or not piracy truly makes prices high, I still think it should be stopped, people do have a right to make money off thier products, I'd be mad if I coded something and people jacked my merchandise. So i fully understand why companies implement measures to combat it.

Subscription based content, along with the fall of anonyminity on the net with liberty alliance/.Net, and the features of palladium should really put a pretty good dent in piracy though if done right.

[Saturn2K]

I believe than many people's views here are rediculous fears. I don't believe that they will stop pirating. Also, the internet won't be locked out to people using Unix/Apple. No one at Microsoft cares enough to watch each computer to see if you are downloading the latest single or a copyrighted picture of a pheasant.

I don't believe that anyone will be in direct danger. However, if such an event were to happen that Microsoft unleashed a fleet of supercomputers to watch all Windows users, things could still be fixed. Many times, things like this are circumvented. Windows XP's registration and activation system worried some people, it was disabled. With dedication, I believe that all this can be fixed.