Flash or no Flash?

By CrimsonRedMk
in Linux

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Flash  

126 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Shift Linux include Flash out of the box (preinstalled)?

    • Yes
      109
    • No
      17

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Grand Master

LightIdea

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That's a good idea. But a few questions come to mind:

  • Where would those files be downloaded from?
  • Remastering an ISO "on-the-fly" by an automated process on Windows? Which free tools could be use to do that?
    If it was done on Linux, a lot of free tools would be available, but doing that on Windows sounds a bit more complicated.

Most linux tools have been ported to Windows.

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Grand Master

Lechio

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Most linux tools have been ported to Windows.

Which ones for remastering an ISO image? It will also need a graphical interface, or will it be CLI? Will all of that fit on the CD?

For the URL's to download the files from, those would need to be "static" or have a server where the program could get the information from and update its URL database. The program would also need to analyze the system hardware components to know which drivers to download.

And how to keep track of the size of all the downloaded drivers? Those will have to fit on the CD.

It can be done and it would be an excellent addition to Shift, but involves a lot of effort and hard work in doing something like that.

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Grand Master

markwolfe Veteran

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Most linux tools have been ported to Windows.

But many users will likely not have them installed.

Maybe the shift website ought to contain links to apps recommended for Windows users to help them create a Shift CD/DVD. Things to burn an iso image, even if a command-line app that a batch file can be written for. And a md5sum and/or sha1 calculator so users can verify their downloaded image checksum.

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Grand Master

PricklyPoo

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Well flash is a necessary component, I think it'd just be one less hassle to deal with.

Like stated earlier, include it automatically in the live cd, and make it an option in the install maybe.

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Grand Master

4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran

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Well flash is a necessary component, I think it'd just be one less hassle to deal with.

Like stated earlier, include it automatically in the live cd, and make it an option in the install maybe.

For legal reasons, it has to be made an optional download after install. The clever Shift team can make this as easy as clicking a mouse and ticking a box. (Versions of Windows you buy still have to get over these legal hurdles and they do it in various ways.)

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Experienced

CrimsonRedMk Member

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For legal reasons is no longer an argument. We can include it installed, on the CD, on the live CD and everywhere else pretty easily and possibly without even asking Adobe. I'm talking to some people about how they implemented it and am pretty sure we can just stuff it in there. The votes are pretty straightforward, you guys want it in. However, posts aren't. :p So, if legality were not an issue, would you want a piece of non-free software (Flash) installed by default?

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Grand Master

markwolfe Veteran

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For legal reasons is no longer an argument. We can include it installed, on the CD, on the live CD and everywhere else pretty easily and possibly without even asking Adobe. I'm talking to some people about how they implemented it and am pretty sure we can just stuff it in there. The votes are pretty straightforward, you guys want it in. However, posts aren't. :p So, if legality were not an issue, would you want a piece of non-free software (Flash) installed by default?

Well, let me just be clear. Talking to other people to see what they did (which seems to be whatever they wanted without checking Adobe's terms, or contacting Adobe) does not suddenly make it "legal".

Adobe had terms and requirements. Not sure if you checked them. If not, they are here: http://www.adobe.com/products/players/fpsh...tribution1.html

with the full text of the license here: http://www.adobe.com/products/clients/all_..._agreement.html

You can see the terms are that it cannot be shipped 'preinstalled' but can be shipped with a separately run installer. It also includes a restriction spelled out in 2.5 (a)

(a) No Unauthorized Distribution. Unless Distributor has separate written permission from Adobe, it will not distribute the Software in any manner not permitted by Section 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3. For example, Distributor shall not distribute any installer or installer files in any manner not permitted by such sections.

(b) No Transfer. Distributor may not rent, lease, sublicense, assign or transfer its rights under this agreement, or authorize all or any portion of the Software to be copied except as may be expressly permitted herein.

So, we need permission, it cannot be preinstalled, but must have a separate installer, and the permission is non-transferrable. That goes against the GPL, so even if Shift were permitted, it would be a violation to users to share disks, or even put it on torrent, as they are seeding their copy out.

Can Shift thumb their nose at Adobe and the GPL terms? Sure.

But it is not legal just because some other group is doing it.

This puts us back at not putting Flash on the CD, and having the user be prompted for the flash install upon visiting the first flash content in a webpage.

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Grand Master

Lechio

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Not a good idea to take example from other "underground" distros. Just because they do it doesn't mean it's legal, those are breaking the license.

An installer for "extras" is probably the best choice, or just include an area with those in the Shift website.

And the poll may be reflecting if people wish for an easy way to install it, doesn't mean they wish for it to be included in the CD.

Edited by Lechio
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Experienced

CrimsonRedMk Member

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Contacted Adobe about it today. I'm telling you guys, it is legal once they reply, which should be up to 3 business days. If they reply negatively, we'll go with the Installable option. If they say it's OK, then we're set. Also, Linux Mint and PC/OS aren't underground distros, and AFAIK, gOS also includes Flash and even AIR installed. We've got company.

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Skulltrail

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Since Flash is so common on the internet now-a-days I don't see why someone would not want it pre-installed. Saves the user the trouble of having their browser beg for it. :)

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Grand Master

markwolfe Veteran

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Contacted Adobe about it today. I'm telling you guys, it is legal once they reply, which should be up to 3 business days. If they reply negatively, we'll go with the Installable option. If they say it's OK, then we're set. Also, Linux Mint and PC/OS aren't underground distros, and AFAIK, gOS also includes Flash and even AIR installed. We've got company.

You can tell me you contacted them, and I certainly believe it. You can get permissions to distribute it. But you have to comply with their terms. And those terms put more restrictions on distribution than the GPL. Hence, not compatible with the GPL license. And if Shift wants to go that way, that's ok. But that is a new direction that I don't recall coming up and being decided on.

  • Distributor will distribute only the version of the Software (with its corresponding installer) provided to Distributor by Adobe upon completion of this agreement for use on the specific Authorized Operating System listed in Exhibit A. Distributor will not distribute any version of the Software found elsewhere, including on www.Adobe.com, www.Macromedia.com, or any other download site on the Internet.
  • Upon release of a new version of the Software by Adobe, Distributor will cease all reproduction and distribution of the previous version of the Software upon the earlier of (i) the next release of the product or service with which Distributor bundles the Software, or (ii) six (6) months from the date Adobe makes such new version of the Software commercially available.
  • Distributor will distribute, and will ensure that its distributors and resellers distribute, the Software under the Adobe end user license agreement accompanying the Software. If the Software offers or displays such agreement as a part of its installation, Distributor will not configure the Software to avoid such offer or display. As a specific exception to the above, a Distributor that distributes copies of the Adobe Reader or Adobe AIR over an Intranet as permitted by Section 2.2 (a) may suppress the display of the end user license agreement in distributed copies, provided that it does so in accordance with any customization wizard and documentation provided by Adobe and provided, further, that, prior to such distribution, Distributor accepts the terms of such agreement on behalf of itself and all of its Intranet end users. If no such agreement accompanies the Software, Distributor shall distribute the Software under an end user license agreement containing the following minimum terms in favor of Distributor and its suppliers: (i) prohibition against distribution and copying, (ii)...

If Shift is an Adobe distributer on the CD, then these terms apply to Shift development. If the end user opens his/her web page, and is prompted to install because the Adobe installer is not on the CD, just made easy to install...

Then none of those conflicting rules apply to Shift development.

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Grand Master

Barney T. Administrators

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Just a heads up on this discussion. Shift has received the Linux Mark Institute's seal for a GPL distribution. In addition, LMI is needed to use the word "Linux" in anything that Shift or Shift Linux uses to promote this project.

In addition, we have the seal (as well as being a member) of the Open Invitation Network that endorses us as a GPL based OS.

I highly suggest that unless we get some clear directive from Adobe, we link to the Flash site instead of incorporating it in our CD. If we are not GPL, we lose these highly sought after endorsements.

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Grand Master

Brian M. Veteran

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If we're really desperate for Flash support, we could theoretically use a GPL alternative (there's a couple out there), however, the downside is that most of them aren't regularly updated (one of the most popular ones hasn't been updated since Adobe took over, for example).

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Grand Master

markwolfe Veteran

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^^^ I would avoid Gnash or other substitute. They don't come nearly close enough to substitute Adobe.

Also, just so I am clear, I will help the project where I can regardless if Shift keeps compatible with GPL or whether an Adobe installer is included. I just think that the cleaner way is to just have the user click "install" when they visit a flash site. After all, from what I have read of the Adobe terms, you can't preinstall it following their terms anyhow. You have to provide their installer they provide. Not sure that Shift will save any work for the end user by using an official Adobe installer on the CD versus clicking "install" when browsing the first flash page they hit.

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Grand Master

4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran

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^^^ I would avoid Gnash or other substitute. They don't come nearly close enough to substitute Adobe.

Also, just so I am clear, I will help the project where I can regardless if Shift keeps compatible with GPL or whether an Adobe installer is included. I just think that the cleaner way is to just have the user click "install" when they visit a flash site. After all, from what I have read of the Adobe terms, you can't preinstall it following their terms anyhow. You have to provide their installer they provide. Not sure that Shift will save any work for the end user by using an official Adobe installer on the CD versus clicking "install" when browsing the first flash page they hit.

I agree with Mark here. It is just so much easier to have "click to install" links for wanted proprietary software, and these legal matters can be quite complicated. If you guys have a lawyer, then that's one thing. If not, why not just let each user click to install and then accept the terms and conditions?

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Veteran

Fish

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The votes are pretty straightforward, you guys want it in. However, posts aren't.

The votes represent the desire to have Flash included. While I'm sure it's possible, I agree with others here and think it would be better dealt with post-install.

There is always the possibility of having a link on desktop that opens a window and lets people tick of the extra things they want downloaded, to make it easier.

I like the sound of this. (Y)

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